TV Discussion So... a Darth Vader vs Ahsoka Tano throwdown... how would you actually want that to go?

One of the most anticipated possible confrontations in SW over the past couple of years. Most everyone has an opinion.

An opinion on whether or not this encounter should happen at all.

An opinion on how it should end, assuming it does happen, whether it should end with Ahsoka dead at Vader's feet, Ahsoka turned to the Dark Side, or Ahsoka escaping to fight another day. (Taken as read here that it can't end with Ahsoka winning, because the OT.)

An opinion on how the battle should go, whether Ahsoka should hold her own against Vader for much of the fight, or whether it should be a short, one-sided curbstomp.

So give us your opinions then, about what you think of this fight.

 

First of all, we're calling this the "Brawl on Lothal" (tm) .

....even if it doesn't take place on Lothal.

 

Would be an awesome match but sadly the outcome would be like all the duels with characters in movies that take place after the prequel series - wont be a legit match and be like a rigged event with a preordained winner.

 

Ahsoka trying to appeal to Anakin's good side, Vader making her think she succeeded only to jab his lightsaber through her gut.

 

I think realistically the fight can be expected to either be as short or long as the plot requires.

I mean if it's just a short duel to wet peoples appetites then I could see Ahsoka getting curbstomped easily and running off to lick her wounds. But if it's some kind of dramatic final stand for Ahsoka and sealing her ultimate fate in the canon then it would be a lot more drawn out.

I'd personnally like it to be fairly long and for maybe Ahsoka to get a few hits in if it's to be her last hurrah.

 

As I said elsewhere I could see Vader trying to turn her to the darkside and when she refuse he finish her off because of his lust for more power, and he should be massively dominant, but I guess it is wishful thinking.

 

I expect Ahsoka to put up a fight. I don't think there will be just a single battle. I think if they encounter each other they will have skirmishes throughout the series, especially if Ahsoka turns out to be Fulcrum. In fact, that would make for an epic side story as the Lothal Rebels get chased around by Tarkin.

 

It really depends if Disney continues on with Lucas' notion that Vader is weaker than he once was. I mean, Anakin was incredibly powerful after 13 years as a Jedi. Strong enough to defeat Dooku and praised by Palpatine as being able to one day eclipse himself and Yoda.

But in ESB, while he does toy with Luke, Luke does manage to hit him in the shoulder, after a short period of training, which I can't imagine lasted more than a few days (Han and Leia couldn't have been on the run for THAT long). And by the time of ROTJ, though Luke has had no further instruction from Yoda, Luke pretty much looks like he's pretty well in control, kicking Vader down the stairs, etc. They don't actually fight much, but Luke seems to be embarrassing Vader, and then by the time that Luke gets angry, he completely overpowers Vader.

I know that when Lucas initially said Vader was a disappointment, I thought that was stupid revisionism on Lucas' part, because Palpatine never seemed disappointed in Vader, and even in ROTS, Palpatine seems very pleased with himself when Anakin wakes up as a cyborg.

But after spending so much time in the prequel era and going back and watching the OT, I can't unsee just how much it DOES seem like Anakin has degraded to the point that he's getting bested by his son who has like days worth of training, while Anakin has like 35 years of combined Jedi/Sith training at that point. Lucas at one point said something to the effect that Anakin had the potential to be 200% of what Palpatine was, but as Vader only got to about 80% (which still isn't bad). And he also says that Luke has the potential to be what Anakin could have been. But honestly, even pre-injury, I don't think Anakin showed the same capacity that Luke did, when the latter had minimal training.

So there's two things I can take from this:

1. They will still with Lucas' explanation that Vader really isn't as good as people think he is
2. Vader is incredibly powerful, but Luke is just amazing (or Vader's conflict weakened him, etc). I guess we'll see just exactly how Luke turns out in Episode VII

If Disney goes with #1, then I could see Ahsoka holding her own against Vader. If they go with #2, then she could be anywhere from being able to hold her own to getting her butt kicked.

Honestly, weakening one of the most iconic villains of all time just probably isn't something I see Disney doing. I kind of see them just ignoring what Lucas has said on that one and painting him a badass. In which case, I think he should toy with Ahsoka, IF they fight.

But I really don't think they should fight. I think they should encounter each other, but I don't think they necessarily need to fight. It could be an ESB style telepathic thing, or Ahsoka could get captured and be dragged before Vader. Or Palpatine could make Vader execute her to break the last remaining chain he has to Anakin Skywalker (obviously being unaware of Luke at this point). But while Vader ran off to face Obi-Wan alone on the Death Star, I don't know if he'd do the same for Ahsoka. I think he'd just point out her hypocrisy in saying the Jedi betrayed her while now she fights as one against the Empire, and probably give her the choice of joining him or dying.

 

I wouldn't want her to put a better fight than Obi-Wan did in ANH.

 

She was a knight or so some say vader is a dark lord of the Sith anc the chosen one he should kick her ass.

 

She should die. Though I really don't see the big thing about Tano facing Vader. She left the Jedi just let her fade away.

 

I think she should die a heroes death to save Kanan and close her story arc. However, there is reason for her to turn to the dark side, as mentioned during the mortis arc in TCW about how anakin had planeted the seeds of the dark side into his apprentice. So it could be possible they do a trade, Kanan for Ahsoka.

 

The thing is she will never fade away as long as she lives she has such a fan following and Filoni. Unless she dies.

 

In my opinion this duel needs to be the most emotional thing we've seen in Star Wars for years. It has to end with her dying. I rather a good emotional duel than a flashy one, but hey why not both?

 

IMO I just want it to be done and if Filoni saves her again then... I will not be a happy camper.

 

I would rather it not happen. If she was to die, I would it be by some other way than by Vader, I really don't need that kind of heartbreak.

 

Good good let the tiers flow through you.

 

If she does die, I would rather it be by Vader's hand. And Ahsoka is one of my favorite characters. I just don't want it rushed. I hope it's done really well, should they go that route if she appears.

 

You might not like this...

But I think she's the one (ex)Jedi he'd have a hard time killing. Even having fallen to the Dark Side, Ashoka never betrayed Anakin in quite the same way literally every other Jedi did, from his point of view of course.

Vader would of course defend himself with deadly efficiency, but I can't help but wonder if even he wouldn't feel slightly conflicted by this.

Sorry guys, but from a character history perspective... I find this to be the most logical outcome. Vader wouldn't be nearly as quick to kill Ashoka as he would everyone else, just like he wanted to turn Luke rather than kill him.

Of course, that doesn't mean they wouldn't fight and that he couldn't win. If anything, her 'choosing' to stand against him may further enrage him. I just don't think she should die in the first match.

 

After thinking about this, I really agree with you. Ahsoka, despite the hate she gets, has had a huge impact on Anakin. One of the reasons he continues his fall to the dark side is because the Jedi Order "betrayed" her in his eyes (whether or not they actually really did is up to the viewers themselves). This wouldn't be a hack and slash done quick fight. I would like to see Vader have a hard time killing Ahsoka, until he does, because then we see him lose basically all connections to Anakin and almost, in a way, set him up to be as emotionless as he is when he kills Obi-Wan, his friend and master and everything. In Episode 3 their fight is filled with so much emotion and in Episode 4 it isn't. I want to see Vader go from emotional to emotionless and this show can do it with Ahsoka's death.

 

She is definitively not going to die in the first fight but yeah, I would like it if they use her to make him fall deeper in the darkside of the force as long as he does not become a wimp with it. I could understand if it is a few years after RotS but not 15 years later.

 

A big thing about the end of TCW and ROTJ is the idea that love defeats the Sith. Love saves Vader; Luke's unwillingness to fight Palpatine forces Vader to make a decision (just like Palpatine's "unwillingness" to fight Mace). When Yoda sacrifices himself to defeat Sidious (in his vision on Korriban) he proves himself worthy to learn how to retain his identity after death. Upon Vader's death, Yoda and Obi-Wan somehow managed to bestow their knowledge to Anakin after death, allowing him to appear as a Force ghost.

So I definitely feel that Ahsoka CAN'T die the selfless heroic death as Anakin and Obi-Wan did, or as Yoda was willing to in his vision. She did not complete her training, she turned her back on the Jedi when she felt they had turned their backs on her. She managed to escape Order 66 because she was thinking only of herself and letting her personal feelings and anger/frustration get in the way. And I would hope that she's not going to be a Force ghost. I would rather see her as an angry character obsessively trying to atone for the mistakes she made and trying to bring down the Empire via the Rebellion (i.e. armed insurgency) to make up for the fact that she walked away from the Jedi and Republic and washed her hands of their corruption, rather than try to do anything about it.

I do think the seed are there that she could turn. But if she does turn, plot-wise I don't know where they'd take the character from there. Or she could fight Vader and die, which at least would demonstrate the futility of facing the Sith head on in combat, with that soldier mentality being something Filoni has criticized the Jedi for as a corruption of their purpose.

I don't think Ahsoka can be a model Jedi at all. And if she does ever get the upper hand on Vader, I'm guessing it will play out much like it did for Mace.

 

This is how I hope it will go.

Vader and Ahsoka meet up and she recognizes pretty much instantly that he is Anakin. That's a great shock for her. Ahsoka is the first to draw her blade.
Vader at first holds back. He tells her that the Empire brought peace and security to a war-torn and chaotic galaxy. Why does she fight it? He promises a place at his side.
Ahsoka answers something like "You call that peace?"
Vader taunts her that the Jedi have betrayed her, yet she still follows their ideals.
Ahsoka becomes more aggressive, she drives Vader back, but he's still in control of the fight.
Meanwhile, Chopper hacks in the imperial communication network and the Ghost crew see a holo of the fight. They race to help Ahsoka.
Vader loses his patience. He uses the force against her, slamming her against a wall. "You will join me, or die", he states.
Ahsoka, who increasingly loses her composure, screams. "Why? Why are you doing this, Anakin? What has happened to you?"
Vader is taken aback. "Reality", he finally answers, darkly. "So be it. If you will not join me, I must destroy you."
The ghost crew is closing in on the fight.
In the meanwhile, Vader cuts lose and Ahsoka can barely defend herself against his attacks. One of her headtails is cut off by his saber.
The ghost crew has now reached the battlefield. But seconds before they can help Ahsoka, he disarms her and stabs her through the heart. Cue shocked faces from the ghost crew. Ezra wants to run to Ahsoka's body, but is held by Kanan. The ghost crew flees.

In the OT at least, saber fighting doesn't seem like it takes all that long to learn. It is basically just "put your sword where the force tells you to" and we don't even see Yoda training Luke with the saber. The training is more about physical fitness and having Luke open up to the force. So from that context, I don't think Luke is lacking much from becoming a full-fledged Jedi. It is his psychological problems that still hold him back, that he still doesn't fully believe in the force. After that barrier is gone, he is a full-fledged Jedi knight with the force as his ally.

The whole idea that most Jedi train for decades came from the prequels. But even though that was established, I don't think it means everyone needs to train that long to reach their full-potential. Look at what Ezra is capable of after a few training sessions. Luke is probably even more talented, being the son of the chosen one. It's not hard to believe that he is a force savant, just like his father before him.

Additionally, if it did take that long to train Luke Skywalker, why didn't Obi-Wan start his training far sooner? It doesn't really make sense that they would like for that long if training in the force takes so long. They must have known that it wouldn't be necessary.

Lastly, both Sith Lords are very impressed by Luke's prowess and Palpatine thinks that Luke could destroy him and Vader.

Therefore, yes, Luke really is that powerful in ROTJ, no matter the prequels.

 

Filoni explanation of what Vader is like during this period doesn't seem to be playing into Lucas' view point.