Saga So Anakin would've been way more powerful than Darth Sidious?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by BobaFett99, Sep 13, 2011.

  1. BobaFett99 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2011
    I remember George Lucas saying somewhere that if Anakin did not get burned up on Mustafar and put into the suit he would've been more powerful than Emperor Palpatine. But since he got put into the suit Darth Sidious remained more powerful than Darth Vader if thats the case then Anakin would be alot stronger than Obi Wan too as Yoda said Obi Wan was no match for Darth Sidious. Also I wonder how the galaxy would be in Anakin's control? Which I'm sure he would've killed Darth Sidious after he killed Obi Wan on Mustafar. Would the Empire still exist? Just under Anakin's control now? Or would the galaxy be free and would Anakin eventually become good again?
  2. DarthPhilosopher Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2011
    star 4
    Anakin would have certainly been more powerful than Darth Sidious. Much like how the Olympian Gods restrained the demiGod warrior Achilles so too it seems that restraints were put on Anakin once his power (which could have potentially made him a literal 'God') was directed towards the Dark Side - in the form of being burned by lava and being put in the suit. In other words the 'will of the Force' is putting the breaks on Anakin's power before it destroys the galaxy. A parallel between Star Wars and The Iliad.

    The galaxy ruled by Anakin would have likely been as it was under the rule of Palpatine. While idealistically I am sure Anakin would have liked to have restored the Republic, in truth his want for power would have created another dictatorship. His words "make things the way we want them to be", while it could potentially lead to a free galaxy, is not democracy and would have created a dictatorship - remember that a dictatorship can potentially have happy people, however none-the-less it is not democracy and can fall into an authoritarian state with a drop of a coin.

    So, yes, Anakin would have been 'His Imperial Majesty Anakin I' had he not been defeated by Obi-Wan.
  3. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

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    Apr 26, 2009
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    I wouldn't say that an Anakin-led Empire would have been the same as Palpatine's - in his dialogue with Padme on Mustafar, Anakin still believed what he was doing was for the greater good, while everything we've seen of Palps across the Saga clearly indicates that he never deluded himself in such a way - but it would have eventually become much the same at the ground level & prompted a similar Rebellion.

    You could see a few beneficial acts happening early on - eradicating slavery, perhaps, wiping out dangerous criminal organisations & so on - but at some point Anakin would encounter difficulties with the Republic's existing laws & procedures, then just use brute force to achieve his aims. Occupying other systems, crushing resistance by any means necessary, torture. The old "means to an end" approach.

    Hang on, who are we talking about here?[face_whistling]
  4. Gundark31 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 30, 2010
    star 1
    The DBZification of Star Wars, whoever has the highest power(midicholrien) level wins.

    Anakin had no problem killing a bunch of little kids at the offer of some vague reward, the guy was too stupid to manage an intergalactic empire like the manipulator Palpatine.
  5. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I wouldn't say he "had no problem" with it, he was desperate and insane at that point and for those reasons felt the end justified the means. Not excusing what he did, but I think the tears on Mustafar were a good indication that he wasn't OK with it.

    I agree with Darth_Nub. Anakin would have put imperial controls in place initially for the "greater good", which is exactly what he thought Palpatine was doing. That's why he wanted Padme to rule with him; my thinking is that he wanted to play bad cop to her good cop, and of course she didn't want to play at all. Eventually the bad-cop side would have won out far more often though.
  6. DarthPhilosopher Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2011
    star 4
    The dilution of an evil person believing themselves good is an essentail part of Palpatine's character however. Like all tyrants and dictators Palpatine genuinely believed what he was doing was for the greater good. The same can be seen throughout history with all dictators - Hitler, Stalin, Caesar, Napoleon, Gaddafi, etc - in that, while in retrospect their rule was tyrannical and brutal , they ultimately believed in that their reigne was directed and characterised by just causes. George confirms this in the ROTS Audio Commentary, whilst it is further evidenced by Palpatine's lines "Good is a point of view..." and "...and we will bring peace".

    Ultimately Vader on Mustafar has an identical ideological outlook as Palpatine. He believes in bringing order through dictatorship. I am sure Palpatine thought peace could be brought about through Imperialistic dictatorship just as I am sure he justified the destruction of the Jedi as 'survival of the fittest' (like Hitler). Ultimately however this 'bringing of order' is a dictatorship and, just as they both want to bring peace, they would likewise both be tyrants. This is the point of Padme's "I don't believe what I'm hearing; you've changed" - this emphasizes the fact that Padme knows that Anakin would not bring democracy. She knows that Anakin will simply replace Palpatine as another dictator. As such, in my opinion, Anakin's rule - while it might have been characterized differently ideologically - would have been much the same as Palpatine's.

    We should not forget that Hitler was an environmentalist and opposed smoking and alcoholism, whilst at the same time furthering economic policy (although this was based on impractical foundations and was largely the idea of his economists - it was never-the-less revolutionary). Hitler made significant reforms to Germany improving standards of living, etc. Yet Hitler's tyranny and brutality which ultimately led to the complete failure of human civilization should always be seen in conjunction with these reforms. Alas for Anakin, while he would have reformed the galaxy possibility for the better, the brutality he would have demonstrated would not be unlike that of Hitler's or Palpatine's.

    In this way Anakin would be just like any other dictator - whether a contrast be drawn with Adolf Hitler or Palpatine.
  7. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

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    I don't think Palpatine was ever drawn with such depth, however, & whatever idealism may have once existed in him would have been burned out of him perhaps even before he joined the Sith - as Obi-Wan said, "Palpatine is a politician".

    Part of ROTS, I believe, attempted to illustrate a fundamental difference between Vader & Palpatine - one Sith Lord seduced by the Dark Side for the greater good it could be used to achieve, the other Sith Lord having embraced it because he was just an evil scumbag from the start & was never interested in anything other than the power it offered. Let's face it, we don't actually know anything about Palpatine beyond what's presented in the films (evil, cackling power-hungry maniac), & I doubt that even the upcoming Darth Plagueis novel will contradict that. The portrayal in ROTJ was there to provide such an utterly unsympathetic villain that Vader's conflict & ultimate redemption was credible.

    Palpatine = evil. No grey area.
  8. qui-gon-kim Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 19, 2001
    star 4
    "You cannot stop me. Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us."
  9. DarthPhilosopher Jedi Grand Master

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    Jan 23, 2011
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    That's not the point however. Palpatine believes that he is acting for the greater good - this much is clear. Yes, he may be the symbolism for evil with no 'grey area', however this does not mean he did not think his actions righteous or justified. I doubt Stalin was an idealist yet I am sure he thought he was justified and acting for the greater good. Much like Hitler, Palpatine believed power the path to the attaining of peace - this is a hallmark of his evil character yet a part likely justified by him. You do not need idealism to think your actions justified - Joseph Stalin is a prime example of this.

    Anakin and Palpatine are both trying to achieve the same goal - to bring 'peace', but first and foremost to have power. Both think they are justified and both are trying to bring peace to the galaxy after years of war. Ultimately they will both be led down the same road to dictatorship and tyranny.

    I don't see the difference between Anakin's goals for the galaxy and Palpatine's.
  10. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

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    It's not clear at all, the exact opposite is what's clear- Palpatine acts for his own good (or perhaps, if you want to stretch things, the benefit of the Sith, which is just him & an apprentice. Same difference). There's absolutely nothing in any of the six films to suggest otherwise, & a good few nasty chuckles to himself that confirm he's 100% selfish.

    His little speech to Anakin at the opera about "good being a point of view" is nothing more than seduction, filled with both lies & half-promises he never makes good on. At what point does Palpatine demonstrate that he's using the Dark Side of the Force for anything other than his own personal gain?

    Some people are bad with good in them, others are good with bad in them. Anakin could be A or B. Other SW characters could also fit either.

    And some people are just completely evil with no redeemable aspects whatsoever. That would be Palps. That's the entire point of the character.
  11. DarthPhilosopher Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2011
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    I certainly agree that Palpatine is representative of pure unredeemable evil. However, never-the-less, this does not nessisarily mean that he is not deluded by the thought that his establishment of the Empire will actually bring peace. He obviously has faith in the Sith ideology and in this way it can be assumed that, while selfish, he also feels that he is justified in his actions. Being pure evil does not nessisarily exclude Palpatine from justifing his actions. He obviously thinks that utilizing power for personal gain, while selfish, will bring some type of 'New Order' he believes to be justified (whether these justifications are fueled by selfishness is irrelevant).

    The point is Palpatine believes his dictatorship is justified by his ideological outlook. Unless I'm mistaken George Lucas also confirms on the Audio Commentary of ROTS that Palpatine believes he is good. Do you think Palpatine actually thinks he is evil - George suggests the opposite asserting that evil beings believing they are good in their actions is an integral part of what evil is and how it arises.
  12. CoolyFett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2003
    star 4
    Anakin/Vader was more powerful than Obi Wan, but he did not have more wisdom. Anakin thought power would trump wisdom and that is why Obi Wan beat him. Anakin/Vader had many limits once he was put in the suit which main purpose was to keep him alive. Force Lighting was out of the question with all the components used in the suit. The suit also made Anakin/Vader heavier then before. If Anakin/Vader was to kill Palpatine & become the new emperor he may have had giving the power to Leia, but in order to do this he needed Lukes help. That is what the conversation was in Cloud City. Anakin/Vader was always having conversations during the heat of battle. One thing he didnt seem to have was patience. He needed to sit down with Luke without sabers and talk things though. He needed to sit down with Obi Wan in both ROTS & ANH and talk things though, but these situations never happened, due to Anakins impatience.
  13. CoolyFett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2003
    star 4
    Yes I agree, he had no wisdom at all. He was too impulsive to run the Galatic Empire. Anakin/Vader would need help and IMO he would need this help from his children. To me that is what he wanted Luke for. Luke represents a piece of Padme that Anakin could get back. Even in ROTJ when Anakin learns of Leia, you can hear the *smile* on his voice when telling Luke he knows about the twin sister. The twins represented a threat to Palpatine.
  14. CoolyFett Force Ghost

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    Feb 3, 2003
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    "If you strike me down I shall (help Luke) become more powerful than you can possibly imagine"
  15. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

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    I don't recall GL saying that even Palpatine believes himself to be good, but he may have, & yes, he certainly would feel justified in his actions. There's no trace of guilt or soul-searching.
    I'd be inclined to say that Palpatine believes himself to be right, rather than 'good'. He says as much to Anakin - "good is a point of view".

    As far as believing that a Sith Empire will bring peace, I don't think he's concerned about peace so much as order & the power it would bring him. Again, purely selfish motivations. You could say that he might be deluding himself into thinking that order in the galaxy is for the 'greater good', but I'm more inclined to think that he considers himself, as a Sith, to be above other beings anyway. The order he wishes to implement is for his own benefit.
  16. CT-867-5309 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    "Good is a point of view" is just a line he fed Anakin, I don't think Palpatine cares either way.

    He doesn't care about good and evil or right and wrong, those do not motivate him.

    All he cares about is getting what he wants, power and control. If peace is a result of that, that's just icing.

    He's not doing it because peace = good (he doesn't care), that's just a side effect of getting what he wants.

    Really, Anakin is the same way.

    BACK TO THE OP

    This is just a "what if", but all the midichlorians in the galaxy won't be enough for Anakin to overthrow Palpatine.

    Suit or no suit, Palpatine would always be one step ahead of Anakin, because Palpatine has it where it counts and Anakin doesn't.

    It wouldn't, even if he were able to assume control he'd lose it relatively quickly.

    I think not, I think Palpatine beats Anakin in just about any confrontation you could imagine.

    It would fracture and fall into chaos pretty much immediately, and eventually Anakin would be killed.
  17. DarthPhilosopher Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2011
    star 4
    Yes, he would certainly feel justified. In my opinion that is synonymous with the thought that he was doing 'good', however I guess that's just my opinion. The point is however that Palpatine does not believe his establishment of the Empire, or even himself, as being evil - rather, like all 'evil dictators', he believes himself justified, right, and in my opinion, he even believes himself good. After all, as he says, good is a point of view - his point of view is simply different from what humanity would commonly consider righteous and good. I am sure he believes in many of the same Darwinist, Nationalist and Socialist ideology as Hitler.

    From Palpatine's point of view the bringing of order is the bringing of peace. With order you have structure and with structure you don't have war - this is Palpatine's outlook. He, like Hitler (this shows how aligned he is with the German Fuhrer), was disconnected from the plight of the average citizen. If the state functioned and if there was no war he believed it was a sign of peace - of course this is the mind of a dictator and in reality peace for the majority of us means freedom, understanding and equality. It this way I am sure Palpatine believed he was acting for the 'greater good' despite how deluded this outlook.

    It is suggested in the films and various other sources that Anakin was fully capable of destroying Palpatine - his 'demiGod-esc' status seems to suggest he is potentially the most powerful being ever to have lived. Palpatine, Anakin and perhaps Yoda all knew that Anakin could, if not defeated at Mustafar, have beaten even the Dark Lord.
  18. CT-867-5309 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    Could? Sure, but I doubt he actually would have. I'm big on probability, and I would make Palpatine the favorite.

    I'm not debating whether or not Anakin would have become "more powerful" than Palpatine, because it doesn't matter.

  19. Jedsithor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 2005
    star 4
    I've always thought that Anakin saw himself as a slave his entire life and not just on Tatooine. He was a slave to Gardulla the Hutt, a slave to Watto, a slave to the Jedi. This is part of the reason he lusts for power. It's about being in control. About making things the way he wants them to be rather than serving the needs of others. Yes, turns to save Padme but that again is all about control. The ironic thing of course is that in turning to the Dark Side he becomes a slave to Palpatine, never able to realize his full potential to overthrow the Sith Lord thanks to being in that suit. It's only at the very end, when he finally learns to let go that he becomes free for the first time in his life by saving his son.

    It's interesting that he wants to overthrow Palpatine in Sith. Up to that point, the rule of 2 had been established but there was no indication whatsoever that Palpatine had made Anakin his heir. By the time we reach the original trilogy, especially Empire, Vader has established himself as next in line. In Empire he controls the Imperial fleet, only taking orders from Palpatine. So at that stage it's reasonable to assume that he would be accepted as Palpatine's successor but in Revenge of the Sith, Anakin Skywalker is known for being a Jedi. Even though he helped slaughter the Jedi I think there would be a degree of mistrust. If he killed Palpatine then, when the Emperor hadn't established military rule and still needed the Senate, I'm not sure he would have been allowed to ascend to the throne.

    That's why he needed Padme. She would legitimize his claim to the throne. When she rejects him, I don't think he can become Emperor unless he can somehow sway the military to his side, a military that is made up of Clones loyal to Palpatine. If Palpatine instilled the Sith code in the Clones then sure, they may recognise Anakin but that's a big IF.

    If Anakin did manage to become Emperor, the first thing he would do is free the slaves. In fact I am convinced that one of Palpatine's first actions was to bring Tatooine into the new Empire and abolish slavery there, probably at Vader's request. The reason being that Vader is so full of rage and despair at that point, he is liable to do something crazy like attack Palpatine. Even if he can't beat Palps in the suit, he's still dangerous so I think Palpatine would have wanted to keep Vader on his side.

    Following the freeing of slaves, I think Anakin would have rebuilt the Jedi Order in his image. He would want to make it stronger and incorruptible. Of course he's been consumed by the Dark Side and while the new Jedi Order wouldn't be made up of Sith, it would ultimately destroy itself the way the original Sith Order did. He would also want to keep the Senate intact but as his frustration with the bureaucracy grew, he would use his executive power more and more, bypassing the Senate completely.

    One thing is for certain - he wouldn't build a Death Star.
  20. CT-867-5309 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    I have to laugh at the notion of Palpatine wanting to bring peace to the galaxy.

    As far as we know, the Republic was peaceful before Palpatine came along stirring **** up.

    I mean, the Republic didn't even have a military.
  21. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Palpatine started the first war "since the formation of the Republic" and played both sides of it. Kind of counterintuitive to wanting peace, so I don't think the idea crossed his mind.

    I don't know if there is any "grey area" to Palpatine or not, I'm waiting on the Plagueis novel for that one, but as far as his gaining dictatorship as we see in the films, their novelizations, and the prequel-era novelizations--he took his time to view the weaknesses in everyone around him, the Senators and the Jedi in particular, and slowly exploited them to his advantage, to accumulate more power for himself. And from what we can tell right now, he did so for two reasons: to destroy the Jedi, and because he simply wanted that power. Unless he had in drilled in his head so adamantly by his Master that "the Jedi are evil and must be destroyed at all costs", I don't think any notion of the "greater good" even entered his mind.

    As far as Anakin, his naivety and his own background left him with a complete lack of understanding of the concept that "Democracy may occasionally be a messy PITA, but it is monumentally better than the alternative."
  22. janstett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2004
    star 3
    You're simply out of focus on this one. Palpatine is the man who started and orchestrated the war in the first place. He does not care about peace, he does not care about the greater good. He cares about Sith rule and tyranny.
  23. DarthPhilosopher Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2011
    star 4
    I don't think you guys understand my post. I realize there is no 'grey-area' with Palpatine and I realize that he is the pure representation of evil. That is not my point however.

    Palpatine believes that what he is doing is justified. Yes, he has plunged the galaxy into the abyss and tyranny, yet on that same level he justifies his mechanisms through a delution. Yes he is acting out of selfishness and pure evil, yet at the same time he is justifying his rise to dictator of the galaxy with the notion that he will bring peace. Again, this concept of peace is selfish and inwardly motivated, yet none-the-less it is a notion of bringing order. If you study any dictator you will understand that, while they are acting in selfish and malevolent ways, they do not think themseleves evil and in turn justify their actions with flawed and adapted logic. This is essential to any dictator in that they are motivated by a dilution and that what they are doing is just. Palpatine no doubt believes in several philosophies - Social Darwinism, Nationalism, Socialism and Imperialism. He believes these ideologies are right and just. Yes he implements and believes in them because he in selfish and evil, yet at the same time they form the basis of his justification of the Empire and the rise of the Sith. What is his main motivation? Power. Does he justify this with ideology? Yes. Just because he believes he is just does not mean there is a grey area - it simply means he is a deluded and evil dictator.

    George seemingly also agrees with me - he has said that Palpatine believes himself justified and not evil and that he actually believes he will bring peace. This does not change the 'evil incarnated' representation of his character.

    Consider Hitler; did he not also start a war, plunge the world into tyranny and rule with an iron fist? Hitler, like Palpatine, wanted power so that what he believed to be the superior people (Germans for Hitler, Sith for Palpatine) could rule the 'world', likewise destroying many thousands of innocent people because he thought them different or in opposition to him. Yet Hitler likewise thought himself justified. He believed the war justified. He believed his tyranny justified. He believed his power justified. This is not unlike Palpatine believing that his selfish want for power was justified and that it would bring order to the galaxy. He believed the Sith should rule the galaxy. He believed himself right in this goal.
  24. CT-867-5309 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    I don't think he had any delusions of peace or order, nor did he believe what he was doing was actually "good" in any way.

    I think you're confusing "right" with "desire". Getting what he wants (whatever it is) is right to him, because that's all he cares about.

    Just? Sure, "getting what I want is just, because I deserve to have what I want and to hell with anyone who gets in my way". As long as he gets what he wants for himself, anything and everything is justified, the galaxy be damned.

    I think he knew all along what he doing is wrong and evil, but he just doesn't care.

    I don't see Hitler's and Palpatine's motivations as similar.
  25. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    I basically agree with this. In other words, I think Lucas' comments on the subject should be taken with a grain of salt, if not the whole salt shaker.