CT So are the stormtroopers clones or what ??

Considering what an embarrassment the storm troopers are in the OT, agreed!

 

You have a funny way of saying things...lol... But I think a lot will be explained in episode 7, Rebels, and the Disney canon EU regarding this issue...

 

Mod action: Merging with existing topic on stormtroopers being clones

 

I don't get that vibe at all. The Clones are shown to be efficient soldiers, stormtroopers are shown to be weak-minded fodder.

 

It's mostly the "head-banging scene" in AOTC that's a call-forward to ANH, and in commentary implied to be a hint that some stormtroopers are clones, who inherit occasional moments of clumsiness from Jango.

 

What head-banging scene in AOTC?

 

When Jango enters Slave One - he bumps his head on the door frame.

 

That is supposed to signify that stormtroopers are idiots? I always thought that he was simply dizzy and fatigued since he had just defeated Obi-Wan freaking Kenobi!

 

In the commentary, I'm told that the head-bump scene is stated to be put in specifically as a reference to the ANH head-bump scene.

 

Well that's all subjective to the viewer. Stormtroopers were arguably just as capable, but what we see in the movies (and what the plot called for) kind of diminished their character. Remember, "only Imperial Stormtroopers are so precise."

Besides, the evolution was pretty obvious and seemed like an easy concept to follow:

 

I love the helmet evolution. It's even better with a Mandalorian helmet first.

 

Firstly the OT stormtroopers don't all sound the same:



Secondly Lucas answers the question here in 2005. At first he tries to wave the issue off by saying they were clones, then when pressed he declares they were a mix of different clones & recruits:

So are all those soldiers from the original trilogy actually just the same guy? “Yes,” Lucas said. Fair enough, master — but if that’s true, then why do the troopers in the earlier movies possess different voices? “Well, yeah, some of the voices have been changed to make it more consistent,” he said, raising an eyebrow at the precociousness of the Padawan. Indeed, Lucas has gone back and changed the voices of the Storm Troopers during recent re-edits for the special editions. “Those particular two guys that you’re talking about — which I know about, which is a very good performance — the idea is that over time, there were new clone strains introduced, and then they even conscripted guys to be Storm Troopers. So it’s not just purely clones: It started out as clones, but then it got diluted over the years as they found out they could shanghai guys more cheaply than they could build clones.”

http://www.mtv.com/news/1501522/wha...about-jar-jar-star-wars-emperor-lucas-speaks/

 

With the new stories - I'm curious as to just how far it diverges from that 2005 picture.

If Lucas intended it as something like 80% Jango clones, 10% other clones, 10% recruits, in the OT, and if the newcanon is more like 90% recruits, 9% Other Clones, 1% Jango clones - that's quite a difference.

 

That whole quote is all A are P, some A are not P, due to logic both can't be valid which means no conclusion can be reached. This shows how smart Lucas is since he was able to sneak out of giving a direct yes or no answer in a manner that goes over that interviewer's head.

 

Dude people are allowed to give a yes or no response & then immediately clarify & expand on their answer. You've just long been arguing for all identical clones & you're annoyed that Lucas has debunked that idea.

 

Lucas said, "all clone troopers are stormtroopers, but not all stormtroopers are clone troopers."

 

In current Canon we know that there were some Jango clones serving as of ANH but they were few and far between.

But if you want to go off of Lucas alone then it still says the same thing.

So either way you go there are clones in the OT.

 

Going by Lucas alone it isn't quite the same thing.

Then there is this from Hidalgo:

Just a heads up, Downunder has been fighting me tooth and nail for about 10 pages in a thread over on the PT forum and I see he has run here as a safe zone to find backup.

Not really, what he did say was yes to all stormtroopers are clones ("so all those soldiers from the OT are the same guy"). He then explains about changing ST voices to be more uniform in ANH. Then the interviewer presses him with nitpicky fan gripe as Hidalgo puts it, about different heights and voices so Lucas gives him a contradicting "some stormtroopers are not clones" statement. You have to remember Lucas often used humor at the nitpicky fans' expense to cast away the nitpicky gripes while jokingly having fun.

 

If Lucas genuinely believed that all stormtroopers were clones, & the reporter then nitpicked about different heights all he had to say was the first part of his response: "different clone hosts". That completely caters for the obvious differences in the OT like radically differing heights & voices. Explanation given, job done, next question.

Please explain then why he didn't stop there but continued on & said this: "and then they even conscripted guys to be Storm Troopers. So it’s not just purely clones: It started out as clones, but then it got diluted over the years as they found out they could shanghai guys more cheaply than they could build clones".

There's no "joke" in that. No punchline. He gives us some interesting & realistic information about the Empire's recruiting. Also it was completely unnecessary to add that in answering the interviewer's "nitpick". Not only does he declare here that the Empire as a fact used recruits but he explains how they got them (conscription & Shanghaing) & why they used them (cheaper than clones). That's not humor!

So they're the words of Lucas. You're supposed to be a Lucas fanatic aren't you? What he says goes. How can you completely disregard his comments here & still declare as a 100% certainty that there were no recruits? Is that what you're saying, they were definitely all clones? & still all identical clones?

 

The fact that Stormtroopers are not clones completely ruins the big reveal in ep II. You know the one on Kamino when Obi-Wan's reaches his final stop on the clone facility tour. Where they pan back, and we see the clones gathering their shiny white armor assembly line style, and we realize, "Oh s$%t! these are Stormtroopers!"

It was such a powerful scene. And it's been neutered by the current ret-con. (I say, "current," because the saga is just so malleable nowadays)

Contrary to popular belief, there are many things Lucas did get right in the PT. And that was one of them.

 

nope.

 

Well the opposite is also true, if Lucas believes the increasing majority of STs are recruits, then why did Lucas say yes that all STs are indeed clones and went though the action of making the ST voices more uniform which futher highlights that they are clones in the films? This action contratdicts his later statement. He acts to increase the clones while saying they are decreasing. Actions speak louder than words and Lucas' action was to futher reinforce that stormtrooper are indeed clones. It is like telling a bank teller you are not robbing the bank while holding a gun to the teller's head for money. Lucas rabbit holed about recruits to exhaust any follow up nitpicks from the interviewer who expressed an anti-clone bias to George (or at least a willingness to endlessly nitpick George to his face) who wanted to skip past it. The interviewer didn't catch on that he was given a nonanswer due to the two contradictions, he was just happy to hear what he wanted to hear.

That is very much the "I am your father moment" of AOTC where it shows were the stormtroopers came from and how they are created. It is interesting that Lucas didn't coin the term clonetrooper, LFL marketing did to shoehorn the PT with the old EU. Lucas never used clonetrooper himself, he always called the clones stormtroopers. If you watch AOTC and ROTS, clonetrooper is never uttered onscreen in those films.

So you believe Lucas completely screwed up the PT then? I noticed on the other thread in the PT section your favorite standby answer is "nope."

 

Its not quite the same thing but there are still clones non the less.

 

Because it matches up perfectly with his explanation. He made some ST voices the same while deliberately leaving others as different. So he's saying there are indeed clones among the ST's but with recruits that were added later. If they were all clones he would've made all ST voices the same & then said in interviews they were all clones but from different hosts. He didn't do either of those things, he did the opposite: left some different voices & told us recruits were included. Why can't you work out this simple point? What is your problem with Lucas' explanation? Are you still saying they were all identical clones?? You're deliberately avoiding that last question.

How is that a contradiction? He made changes to make it more clear in the movie that there are some clones while also telling us there are some recruits. Makes perfect sense. Again, while he was making the voice changes he could've made them all the same but that's not the story as he sees it.

It tells us there were some clones as he sees it. His inaction in leaving some voices as different fits in with his explanation of some recruits. Still not understanding this? Keep trying, you'll get it.

So now you're reading GL's mind & telling us what he was thinking & why he was saying what he said?

Lucas completely answered the question that he's been aware of for 20+ years, that the stormtroopers are obviously not all identical clones. He did that with multiple clone hosts. There are no other nitpicks available. There could be as many clone hosts as necessary. He then continued on & introduced something new: "and then they even conscripted guys to be Storm Troopers. So it’s not just purely clones: It started out as clones, but then it got diluted over the years as they found out they could shanghai guys more cheaply than they could build clones".

The other important point here is Lucas' use of the term "diluted". He's saying that compared to the full clone force of the prequel era the Stormtrooper force became diluted by inferior clones & recruits. He wants us to accept this as an explanation for the decreased competence of the ST's compared to the CT's of the prequels. It now all matches up perfectly. The Imperial armies have been "diluted" over time because of the need for so many more troops & bcs they essentially took shortcuts. As GL puts it to get troops more cheaply & easily. It's a great explanation by him & I prefer this to the new canon approach of no clones at all.

So at this point I'm not even sure what your position is. Are you saying that all ST's were clones in dispute of GL's explanation or are you disputing him even further by saying they were not only all clones but all identical clones? Which is it?

 

Why would the Empire need even more troops after the clone wars? That doesn't make sense. You need the most troops during a war, not after it. The rebels were a tiny group compared to the CIS and the galaxy is already subjugated by the Empire for a couple of decades. If they needed to increase their army by recruiting, it would needed to be done during the clone wars, not after it during the peace before the war with the rebels. As I said, Lucas' actions contradict his statements. ANH already had identical sounding ST, why increase the number of identical sounding clone ST if there numbers are supposed to be declined? As Lucas himself says " So are all those soldiers from the original trilogy actually just the same guy? “Yes,” Lucas said." The key here is he said yes to ALL.

So how can they all be clones and also be some recruits when he agreed they are all clones? You keep avoiding that question by hand waving it as an explaination when it really is an contradiction. What is so hard for you to under stand that something can't be both all a are p and some a are not p. The 6 film sega suggests nothing about recruited STs, and watching the 2011 ANH I really could not tell ST had different voices, they sounded alike.

As for these other questions you posted at me, they are simply an ad hominem and red herrings, that is why I didn't bother to answer them because they are besides the point. The debate isn't what I think, the debate is are STs clones or not? It is pretty childish of you to keep trying to divert the argument to what I think all the time.