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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

CT So are the stormtroopers clones or what ??

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by SarlacsDinnerParty, Aug 30, 2014.

  1. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    Bcs the government went from a Republic where systems had largely autonomous rule to an oppressive galaxy spanning Empire. The Imperial Senate was just a token body & the Empire "tightened its grip" throughout the galaxy with its military forces. A we're told in ANH there were Imperial Governors in place throughout the galaxy. They had to be backed up by armies & fleets. Furthermore from the time of ANH these Governors took direct control over the various star systems. So they went from an army at war during the PT to a huge galaxy spanning oppressive regime during the Dark Times & the OT. The Republic was not set up this way, so this clearly required more ships, personnel & troops.
    Are you a human being or a robot? People don't communicate like that. How does your silly formula account for someone making a blanket generalization & then correcting himself & expanding on that position? People do that all the time. I'm sure you do too. How do you communicate with people if you don't allow them to correct themselves in the same sentence??
    You're engaging in a debate. So what is your position: they were all clones or all identical clones?
     
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  2. Slicer87

    Slicer87 Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 18, 2013
    Except the Republic would already have huge fleets and armies to fight the huge size of CIS, forces. The clone war was far larger than the war in the OT. Individual systems that we see in the films only seem to have small security forces at best such as Naboo, Bespin, etc. Some planets didn't even have that.

    It isn't my silly formula, it is a silly formula which was developed by Greek philosophers that has been further studied and refined though the ages. The same ancient silly formula is the foundation of modern day electronic circuitry, which accounts for its robotic sounding nature. Again you are resorting to strawman, ad hominem, and red herrings, but you probably don't even know what those are. An explanation provides further detail, a contradiction is further information that doesn't mesh with earlier information so both can't be valid. It is like saying all cats are animals. But then you say some cats are human. A life form can't be both animal and human.

    My stance is that they are all identical clones, that is what I believe the film Sega narrative indicates and have provided my reasons to you many times. However, this is simply a red herring. If you must know I got As in logic courses. However, because Lucas doesn't even seem to know for sure himself exactly if ST'S are either all Jango clones, mix of different clones, or a mix of clones and recruits, as he has made statements that supports all 3 possibilities. This makes any argument for either inductive instead of deductive. If you know what those are. We do know that at least in film canon and Lucas canon, stormtroopers are not all recruits.
     
  3. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 5, 2001
    Agreed.
     
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  4. Slicer87

    Slicer87 Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 18, 2013
    Lets just agree to that and end this now. I think the both of us wasted enough time.
     
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  5. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    It was film canon when Lucas ran things. He no longer does and it has been overwritten by the story group that there are non clones within the army, as demonstrated by "Rebels" and "The Force Awakens".
     
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  6. DBPirate

    DBPirate Jedi Master star 4

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    Jun 20, 2015
    If there were any clones, there were barely any. According to my previous knowledge, there were no clones at all but I might be wrong.
     
  7. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    The newcanon novel Smuggler's Run, set between ANH and TESB, has an example of a Jango clone still serving.
     
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  8. Slicer87

    Slicer87 Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 18, 2013
    Unless the story group can re-edit the films, all they can do is write new narratives based on his work which can do whatever they want IMO. However the films still tell Lucas's story as he told it and thankfully the story group can't touch it unless Disney edits the films to tell the story their way. I hope that doesn't happen. I simply dislike the idea that outside writers can overwrite Lucas's work and its disrespectful of him. There are plenty of stories they can tell without having to overwrite anything.

    I think Rebels states there are no more clones, or at least Filoni or Hildago said it, despite the films and other new canon stories suggesting differently. Sometimes when you have multiple artists working on the same story, things often don't line up 100% because every artist will still do things the way they want to. Story writing isn't like a car manufacturing line where every part fits exactly with each other. It is best not to expect that everything will mesh up, especially if there is rampant needless retconing of other people's work.
     
  9. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    The OT films never state that the Stormtroopers were clones. They never take their helmets off and no one ever says that they're clones on screen. So unless something in TFA outright contradicts or supports it, it is very much in the air that there were any non clones during the OT era.
     
  10. Slicer87

    Slicer87 Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 18, 2013
    While I do think there are some in film clues to at least some STs being clones, such as never taking their helmits off except for imposters being a clue in of itself, however, most arguments of either viewpoints are going to be inductive (probable, not definite) at best of weither to what extent they are clones to recruits. I don't view the new narrative as being right or wrong or the films being right or wrong, I just view them as doing some things differently at times. While Rebels can have zero clones, the OT films and other new canon narratives do not seem to fully express that. There will probably never be a total agreement of what exactly STs are but we do know that in many narratives they are not all recruits.
     
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  11. DBPirate

    DBPirate Jedi Master star 4

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    Jun 20, 2015
    Ah, I didn't know that. I thought clones had a very short lifespan though. Are the factories on Kamino still working at that point?
     
  12. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    We don't know for sure - but even if they stopped producing new clones immediately after ROTS - the clone embryos can grow up from there, and (ageing at twice the normal rate) look nearly 40 in ANH or just after - since ROTS is 19 years before ANH.

    The quote from Smuggler's Run:

    He was older than she'd have suspected, perhaps nearing forty, gray beginning to color his black hair. With some surprise Beck realized that he was a clone, perhaps one of the last still in service based on the original Kamino-produced template. That confirmed her suspicions about his age. There were only a few of his kind left. In fact, Beck couldn't remember having ever served alongside one before.

     
  13. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 5, 2001
    The accelerated lifespan is a good reason for the clones born & developed during the prequel era not being around at the time of the OT (or very few anyway). That's the reason Pablo gave as to why in the new canon they're all recruits. However what they still haven't answered is why the Empire stopped producing new clones. IMO they should've kept them going & perhaps used them as an elite strike force & then had recruits as the rank & file soldiers. I don't see why Palpatine wouldn't continue to utilize the superior clone soldiers. Have to say I prefer GL's take which seemed to be a combination of clones & recruits. I'll hold that view until they show me a good reason in-universe for Palpatine stopping the clone program.
     
  14. Slicer87

    Slicer87 Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 18, 2013
    I don't know what outside material has said about aging, but in AOTC they made it clear the clones had growth acceleration which doesn't mean age acceleration as the two are related but seperate processes. Normal humans in real life grow up, stay in a prime stage for ten years, then age. Alot of rapid aging dieases in children also hault their growth like a messed up timer. Since the films only states growth acceleration, I assume the clones only grow up faster but not age faster in adulthood which would make more sense, otherwise the films could have stated age acceleration whould make it clear they do age faster. Using growth instead of aging I believe is a big key word here. The other thing is the clone embryos in AOTC would not reach maturity until 7 years after ROTS, and we don't even know if they were the last batch of if more were in production by ROTS or way after, the last batch may have been by ROTJ when the Empire was defeated at Endor. One of the big problems when talking about what the STs are is all the ifs the films leave blank and how spinoff material is always in a state of flux. As is, the OT films do not indicate a reason for clone production to have stoped.
     
  15. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett Chosen One star 10

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    Feb 18, 2014
    Basically outside sources meaning everything but the Six films say that growth exleration and age are one and the same meaning when a clone trooper is 20 there 40 and so on.
     
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  16. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    And in the Rebels series (previews from Season 2), Rex & company look more like they're in their fifties than their late thirties as "growth acceleration but not rapid ageing" would have indicated.
     
  17. Slicer87

    Slicer87 Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 18, 2013
    Well if TCW could bring a clearly dead Maul back to life, then Rebels could age the clones faster. I still think AOTC saying growth acceleration instead of age acceleration is important deliberate wording. It seems one issue with comparing spin off material to the films is that they don't always follow each other exactly. Another example is that in the films the clones are genetically modified to be docile and less independent to make them obey orders without question, while TCW uses mind control chips instead. Doesn't one of the new canon books says there are still some clone STs while Rebels says there are none? If so, then even the new canon isn't in complete agreement with itself.
     
  18. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Rebels itself doesn't "say" anything about clone stormtroopers.

    Filoni, in an early interview, said of the clones "They're all working the docks"

    http://www.hitfix.com/news/dave-filoni-on-star-wars-rebels-place-in-the-timeline

    Setting “Star Wars Rebels” in the lead up to “A New Hope” leads to some interesting questions. Like what happened to all the clones after Order 66?

    “The Clones are all working the docks. They’re all old men. Some of them are very bitter. Some of them feel terrible about what happened. It’s tough being a clone.”


    but the newcanon appears to be moving away from that kind of absolute.
    That's what they told Obi-Wan. Doesn't mean the statement is true.
     
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  19. Master_Rebado

    Master_Rebado Chosen One star 6

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    May 31, 2004
    In the Clone Wars -Lost Missions we see Nala Se speak with Dooku and she mentions how the Jedi had "inspired creative thinking in some of the clones"

    Also seen in TCW the Jedi engendered in the Clones more individuality,this is outside what the Clones were originally made to do and is of course an unintended consequence of the Sith plan - having the Clones under the command of Jedi.

    The TCW episode with Pong Krell on Umbara and sabotaging clones to their death is something that pits Clones vs Clones not only by the design of Krell but in terms of there being two camps - one to arrest/take down Krell another to blindly follw him.

    The two "sides" in the chain of command debate in that arc was cool to see IMO.
     
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  20. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    It's worth noting that the word "docile" was never actually used in AoTC.

    Certainly the Kaminoans went to some lengths to make sure the clones would, even before Order 66, "follow orders without question" through their engineering and training - but I figure that "You'll find them totally obedient, taking any order without question" overstates things slightly. And, as mentioned:

    even if they started out completely (from a Kaminoan perspective) obedient - that doesn't mean that they remain so.
     
  21. Slicer87

    Slicer87 Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 18, 2013
    Docile is used in AOTC, the word is used when Lama Su is explaining to Obi-Wan about Jango's unaltered clone "son" Boba. He states they didn't tamper with Boba's structure to make him "more docile" like the regular trooper clones. I think this is simply one of those times TCW decided to parts ways with the films some.
     
  22. Master_Rebado

    Master_Rebado Chosen One star 6

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    May 31, 2004

    No argument there.

    One of the other things I note as a divergence in TCW as opposed to the films - the Kaminoan in TCW tries to assert to Shaak Ti that the clones remain the property of the Kaminoans,which I find quite arguably incorrect (even if only the one Kaminoan being wrong).

    The "Republic" by proxy of Dooku posing as Sifo Diyas paid for the Clones and the retainer fees for Jango Fett I doubt was done as a freebie and not added to the Republic's bill.
     
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  23. enigmaticjedi

    enigmaticjedi Jedi Knight star 3

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    Nov 2, 2011
    The films themselves do not address this sufficiently. Because the films made the Clone Trooper armor look extremely similar to the Stormtrooper armor, and more importantly because no one in the films ever said the Emperor stopped using Clones, it gives the impression that the Clone Army is the soon-to-be Imperial Army.

    Sure, some sources say the Imperial Army is not clones, such as Battlefront, etc. Nevertheless, the films could have possibly addressed this directly towards the end of ROTS. Granted, it seems weird to just throw it in there, but it would dismiss confusion. For example, in Palpatine's speech as the newly christened Emperor, he could have promulgated a draft, so the Empire could rely on itself to ensure security instead of relying solely on Kamino.
     
  24. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    Well, Lucas's intention was that they were still clones into the OT. The thing is that going forward now, we're seeing an evolution towards non clone Stormtroopers in "Rebels" which will apparently lead into "The Force Awakens" Stormtroopers.
     
  25. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 5, 2001
    How do you know it was "instead" & not "in addition to"? They're not mutually exclusive. The clones were produced to be more "docile" than regular men but the mind chips could also have been added to force adherence to more specific directions. There's no contradiction there, just something added.
     
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