PT So did the Jedi deserve what they got?

Exactly. They were a bit arrogant and complacent (insisting Dooku couldn't possibly have anything to do with the attempt on Padme's life) but then Mace rolls up to Geonosis and finds Dooku right there amongst all the other Separatists and it's like a splash of cold water, he/they realise holy **** you guys, this has been building much longer than we thought and finally they raise their game and take it as seriously as they should have done back when Qui-Gonn first realised the Sith were back. That again is another good example of a mistake - Mundi (I think) was adamant there was no way the Sith could POSSIBLY be back without them realising despite Qui-Gonn pointing out that a dude with a lightsaber and force powers just handed him his backside, hello?. If he's NOT a Sith, he's been trained by one... but until QG actually gets killed they are too arrogant to take it seriously.

But even when they WERE arrogant, or complacent, or got any other number of decisions wrong (with hindsight) they were ALWAYS trying to protect and serve the Republic. That was always their intention and their main motivation. They certainly didn't deserve to die for that.

 

Who said he only realized it then? Mace said "it's time to inform the senate", which implies that it has been going on for quite some time.

When? He only showed distrust in Anakin in RotS. In fact, he showed trust in him and his abilities in AotC, when Obi-Wan didn't.

When was it obvious?

 

See post above by Jeditraitor, its a reply to the direct quote there not an overall assumption.

From the moment Qui-Gon brings Anakin before the council Mace forms a negative opinion of Anakin, call it distrust or dislike. Where does his statement "you will have gained my trust" imply that Mace has ever had any trust in Anakin? Hardly giving him an assignment of escorting Padme back to Naboo and the security of her own planet requires a great deal of trust.

The Senators knew, the Chancellor knew, they informed the Jedi and Mace dismissed it out of hand.

 

The Jedi were too trusting to a flaw, blind to their own weaknesses, arrogant to think they knew everything there was to know about the Universe and how it worked. Too stuck in ancient, dogmatic ways. They trained for a war that ended a thousand years ago.

Did they all deserve to be wiped out? All of them? I'll give you a one-word answer to this:

Nein.

 

10 years technically, he said it in AOTC. And he says "I think it is time we informed the Senate our ability to use the force has diminished."
So how long the Jedi had actually been suspecting this isn't specified. I like the line more than a lot of AOTC, there should have been more about the subject in the film. There is implied stuff I guess, like Yoda saying the Clone Wars starting is the fall of the shroud, when it is stronger than ever - the Sith are leading their side.

I agree that not suspecting Dooku was an issue of Jedi pride.
Mace kind of goes back and forth on Anakin. In TPM he is intrigued, but ultimately relays to Qui-Gon and Anakin the Council's initial decision not to train him.
In AOTC his belief in Anakin has increased, he is actually the one who reminds Obi-Wan that Anakin is destined to destroy the Sith. In the deleted version of the scene Mace says an arguably warmer "You must have faith that he will choose the right path."

By ROTS though, his opinion has clearly shifted. He is starting to doubt the prophecy; in response to Obi-Wan basically echoing Mace's own ep2 advice back to him, Mace tellingly retorts - "So the prophecy says." Yoda supports the sentiment - "A prophecy that misread could have been."
Mace's scepticism regarding Anakin in the film was a catch-22, don't trust Anakin and he grows to resent the Jedi, let your guard down and Anakin may do something to justify Mace's concern. His comment "Very dangerous putting the two of them together. I don't think the boy can handle it." is so true... yet the Jedi do it anyway.

Personally I think Mace's decision to kill Palpatine in the heat of the moment was wrong on more than one level.
Firstly, yes, Palpatine would manipulate things if he is spared, but as far as Mace and Anakin knew, he was defenceless. It's reoccurring that the Jedi only kill if it is completely necessary.
Secondly, Mace seems to have arrogantly compromised his own belief in the prophecy itself. If Anakin is destined to destroy the Sith, then how can Mace end it? It says in the novelisation that Mace was so focused on Palpatine's shatterpoint that he didn't see Anakin's. I don't see it as necessarily a darkside thing as some do, but I do think Mace briefly slips here and isn't trusting in the force.

Edit - Just wanted to add, there is a lot of irony in Mace's line "If what you have told me is true you will have gained my trust." I take this statement literally - in that when Anakin shows up at Palpatine's office at the end of the fight, Mace is ironically now completely on his side. Mace gestures Anakin to stay back, and this to me makes Anakin's betrayal of Mace more cutting.

 

And I'm replying to your assumption that his realization is delayed.

No, he doesn't. He just saying that he won't be trained for being too old.

Yes it does, so much trust that Obi-Wan wasn't ready to give.

No, they didn't. Nobody knew and Padmé merely speculated.

 

Its a matter of opinion and my opinion is that Mace takes a dislike/distrust because the council senses fear in Anakin.

Trust is a broad spectrum of emotion, Obi-Wan suspects Anakin has feelings for Padme and can be reckless. Where does he distrust he is being manipulated by Palpatine or his overall commitment to the Jedi Order?

Padme is a politician, she knows the dangers of speculation when you have little proof. If she says she believes Dooku is behind it she would have a decent amount of proof before openly declaring it to fellow senators. the Jedi and Palpatine. Palpatine has his own intelligence network, both the Jedi and the Senate should know this and if he pretended not to know of Dooku's involvement it would be a direct giveaway that he wasn't all he seemed to be. Anyway Mace's claims the Jedi have information that the assassination attempt was by disgruntled miners, yet what has he done with that information?

 

Just one last point. Hate to be so harsh on Mace, but something else I find significant about Mace's attempt to kill Sidious is the fact that he is attempting to behead him. I don't think it is a coincidence that not only does Anakin's failure when he kills Dooku involve a beheading, but later Luke's failure at the cave is also a beheading of the Vader apparition hinting he is following his father's path. Pretty interesting recurring symbolism there.

 

It does seem that by season 6 of the Clone wars Show,one can make an argument that Master Yoda pulled a "looked the other way" move..it was also clear by that same arc that Yoda very much regarded the present Jedi order his own creation ,like the medic said " we are all in a way Master Yoda's Children" cause he did have a hand in training mostly every Jedi alive save maybe Anakin?

it does seem that he reasoned if its the will of the force(i.e God) that the order I created shall perish partly by me not acting too much on clear visions of said Orders destruction's...
The actual destruction of the Jedi order does echo the very similar destruction by papal bull of the Order of the Knights Templar's,an order of warrior monks that swore off women,attachments and worldly possessions etc..

in real life history,the papal bull had sealed orders attached to it witch stipulated that they be opened at the same time all across europe ,of course the pope was merely a puppet of French Capet King Phillip Le Bel which owed the order a great debt etc..They used false accusations to orchestrate their spectacular fall from grace..sound familiar?

Did they deserve it..the Jedi or their real life counterparts...they were both poignant tragic examples of betrayal and greed gone awry,I find myself choking up every time I watch the order 66 scene...its actually a fairly effective scene,which I think is enhanced by knowledge of the very similar real life story.

There is a reason Friday the 13th is still regarded as an unlucky date.

 

Why would you even suggest such a thing. You are corrupted by the dark side of the force

 

I don't watch the show, but something I'm wondering from what I've heard... if they humanise the clones, isn't it kind of contradictory to emphasise the flaws in the Jedi? I mean pro-Republic but not pro-Jedi sounds odd. I may be confused, maybe someone who watches can clarify.

 

It's usually "Anti-Republic + Anti-Jedi" - the idea being that the Republic was extremely corrupt - proven by their willingness to not only turn a blind eye to slavery, but use de facto slaves of their own (the clones) and that the Jedi, by propping the Republic up, and going along with the Republic's decisions, were "stained by the Republic's corruption".

Offhand, I can't think of anyone arguing "Republic good, but Jedi bad".

 

And (the argument goes) that it wasn't so much pro-Republic as pro-Clone. And for the clones to look better, the Jedi are made to look worse, as the non-combatants are kept relatively out of it. Again this is just one argument that has been made and I daresay there will be quite a few who disagree entirely, and some who think it was absolutely correct.

 

To be far on the whole Mace Windu 'I don't trust him' line, keep in mind that this was after he just watched the so-called Chosen One have a temper tantrum about not being a master IN FRONT OF ALL THE JEDI MASTERS ON THE COUNCIL. No wonder Mace lost respect for him after that. Anakin showed him that he was still that whiny boy Qui-Gon dragged in all those years ago.

 

The proto empire in ROTS and the later seasons of TCW are very reminicent of the fall of the roman republic and the first "proto machivellian" "princeps senatus/first among equals(in the senate)" wich morphed into "Imperator" or "single ruler" where the word emperor has its roots,,,its fascinating how much real world history inspired the prequels..I rather enjoyed that to be honest..

Did the Jedi deserve what they got,obviously not by any stretch of the imagination..they were an order very much like the aforementioned Templars wich a ruler wanted wiped out for political reasons,if anything they became a victim of their own piousness ,

 

No, I wouldn't say they deserved it. I wouldn't say anyone deserves to be massacred and persecuted.

They were flawed, overly dogmatic and arrogant and too tied to the political affairs of the Republic, as well as too trusting of the political system. This was a major factor in both the Order and the Republic's fall. But, despite their abilities and intentions, they were good people who only wanted the best for everyone. They didn't deserve their fate.

 

The Jedi deserved to be cleansed of their current ideals and rules. I agree with them blindly supporting the Republic and falling in line with the war effort probably wasn't the best decision for them...

but genocide? Kids being slaughtered? No. It's called non-confrontational approach... or a protest from like minded Jedi. But no, the Jedi's hearts were in the right place and they believed themselves to be doing the right thing for the most part. No one deserves to be murdered.

 

I think they did. There were some incompetent actions such as allowing the clone army not authorized by the senate by the Republic to continue to exist after being discovered. Doing that alone could have prevented the Clone Wars. Not examining them either for the content of their chips was a faulty move as well.

 

Who's even arguing that?

And people are supposed to believe her because she's a politician?

Except she didn't. She never presented any proof to anybody because it's a mere belief. Besides, the first thing she asks when she meets Yoda is:

"Do you have any idea who was behind this attack?"

Why would the Jedi suspect Palpatine or Dooku?

We don't know. What he has done or didn't do is completely irrelevant to the plot of the movie.

 

And of course the one moment when Mace finally tells Anakin outright that he respects, trusts and appreciates his difficult decision to tell them about Palpatine, Anakin throws that back in his face by disobeying a very simple direct order and kind of messes everything up. Mace sounds like a fair dude; he trusts people who don't place their ego above everybody else's welfare, and distrusts people who do.

Which also shows that the Jedi (well Mace at least) are perfectly capable of adapting to and accepting changing situations. They don't seem to hold grudges or biases and snapped to their senses on time. Mace's direct order and improvised coup had a very good chance of ending the war and restoring peace had Anakin just did his job as a Jedi (staying put or helping to destroy the Sith). The Jedi did their jobs, why should they deserve to pay the full consequences for the mistakes and weaknesses of others?

But Utapau!

 

Erm.... take a look in the mirror.

Splitting sentences up to suit your argument, taking in no account of other peoples opinion and generally not listening to what others are saying...

 

Of course the Jedi did not deserve to be completely wiped out. They did make mistakes though, which indirectly lead to their downfall.
In the Revenge of the Sith novelization (which I am a big fan of), Yoda realises this on Polis Massa after his duel with Sidious.

''My failure, this was. Failed the Jedi, I did. Too old I was, too rigid. Too arrogant to see that the old way is not the only way. These Jedi, I trained to become the Jedi who had trained me, long centuries ago—but those ancient Jedi, of a different time they were. Changed, has the galaxy. Changed, the Order did not—because let it change, I did not.''

But no, I think that the Jedi did not deserve it. Would a victim of murder 'deserve what he got' because he walked through a dark alley at night?

 

I think Obi-Wan's faith in Anakin was at best, recent. He certainly didn't seem to have faith in Anakin in both "The Phantom Menace" and "Attack of the Clones". Did fighting together during the Clone War finally allow Obi-Wan to feel some kind of faith toward Anakin? I wonder. I also wonder how extensive was his faith in the last film.

Actually, Yoda, Mace, Mundi, other members of the Council and even Obi-Wan seemed distrustful of Anakin in the first film. However, I noticed that Mace seemed to have faith in the Chosen One prophecy and Obi-Wan still didn't in "Attack of the Clones". By the third film, only Obi-Wan seemed to have faith. Neither Yoda or Mace didn't. I don't know about Mundi and the other Council members.