Lit So I guess we have a multiverse of sorts?

Honestly, my headcanon is that Disney canon is canon to Legends unless it doesn't fit. Since nothing contradicts Legends Palpatine's name being Sheev, then Sheev it is... (It also helps explain why Legends Palpatine hated his first name so much that he refused to use it. )

Without this logic, you have plot holes like Darth Maul's Legends status unresolved. While the whole of Rebels can't fit into Legends, I have no problem with the singular episode 'Twin Suns' being Maul's Legends fate.

As far as a point of divergence, it goes back thousands of years. We already know that the Sith took over Coruscant in the New Sith Wars in canon, something that didn't happen in Legends going by the Bane Trilogy. We also know that the reformation of the Republic happened in 1,032 or 1,031 BBY (from the Propaganda book showing Valorum planning to celebrate the 1,000th anniversary of the Republic just before his chancellorship ended). This conflicts with the Legends Ruusan Reformation date of 1,000 BBY.

If Malachor in Rebels is ever confirmed as being Malachor 5, then we know the light side ending of KOTOR2 can't fit in canon (Malachor 5 was destroyed). My theory has been that Disney canon falls under the Dark Side ending of KOTOR 2 (the voice of the holocron on Malachor in Rebels might even be Meetra's!), while the Legends timeline falls under the light side ending of KOTOR 2. This is my theorized "point of divergence".

 

Like I've said before here and elsewhere, my point of divergence would be if Abeloth reached the planet that the Father, Son and Daughter were on 100,000 BBY or not. That would cover the start of the Jedi and Old Republic whenever the NEU gets to that. The Taung-Zhell War might be a problem but I will worry about that when we get there. If we get there.

 

Agreed about things like Maul, Ventress, and Ashoka have resolution in Canon whereas in Legends they were dangling plot threads.

The thing is though the differences between Legends and Canon aren't just historical. Entire PLANETS changed. The Clone Wars version of Ryloth isn't tidally locked like it was in early Legends before that was retconned. The Clone Wars version of Raxus isn't a junk heap. The Rebels version of Kessel isn't an airless rock. Unless you want to hand wave that with an explanation like "Oh that was Kessel PRIME, " the Legends continuity and Canon continuity are incompatable. (Not surprising given how often Legends contradicted itself).

It's best not to think of it as an "alternate universe" resulting from one change, but rather a "parallel universe". The example I gave earlier: The Ultimate Marvel Universe was significantly different from the mainstream Marvel Universe, with things like the Fantastic Four being younger or Venom having a different origin. But it wasn't the result of one point of divergence like in time travel stories. It was just another universe that was similar in some ways different in others.

 

Actually there are 2 Kessels in Legends, so that does resolve the discrepancy.

And Ryloth in the Clone Wars cartoon is canon to Legends too. So at some point it became tidally unlocked?

I disagree that Ventress and Ahsoka had no resolution in Legends. Them going off into the sunset was a resolution. In any case, there is just no way that the Dark Disciple novel is canon to Legends.

Maul was the major holdout--he had every intention of continuing to go out to cause trouble, unlike Ventress and Ahsoka. But I just pretend 'Twin Suns' is canon to Legends, and it works.

 

That is why Legends is much better off without TCW series. Ahsoka shouldn't exist in Legends, Maul died in Ep.I and I believe Ventress would just have disappeared into the galaxy after being used by Dooku, being turned into a cyborg and defeated by Obi-Wan, everyone believing her dead.
All the things TCW ignored, forcing changes, would be returned to how they were in the rest of Legends

 

TCW did a lot of development for Anakin's character over the course of 6 seasons, that 3 movies and the microseries didn't really cover that well (the EU, not knowing where Anakin really was going, spent much of its time on Quinlan Vos).

TCW established key grievances Anakin had with the Jedi--faking Obi-Wan's death, driving his padawan from the Order etc. TCW cemented Anakin as a top knight throughout the Clone Wars, and justified the ANH lines about him being "best starpilot in the galaxy, cunning warrior, good friend". Without TCW, we previously had Anakin knighted 6 months before ROTS and expecting to be made a Master by ROTS. TCW fixes this.

TCW is canon to Legends and should stay that way, so that Anakin, the central character of the saga, can get the same development in Legends he has in Disney canon.

 

We'll see that's the thing the more removed the stories are from the main story the less well they will do. Thing is that stuff serves as lore immersion and stories or potential stories-witness the Dawn of the Jedi comics after all.

Also the in-universe explanation with regards to technology is periods of stagnation and some regression(mostly as a result of 1000 year wars). In any case I imagine IU incremental improvements are made all the time.

Like Krayt said "the Sith were born and were reborn from the Jedi." The Sith species of course existed prior but they weren't the same as the order of the Sith Lords. I like the idea of Jedi who stray from orthodoxy and for that they are punished and war then expulsion then war.

Xendor had a similar origin.

I imagine IU there were simply no schismatic movements of note in the 17,000 years or so(excluding that Pius Dea sect) that split from the Jedi.

I am totally fine with Legends history but everyone has their own cup of tea.

 

What?
The PT gave Anakin as much development as the OT gave Luke.
If anything TCW works against the PT because Anakin is pretty much a different character in the show.

 

Well at the beginning of ROTS he is pretty cocky, "this is where the fun begins." Which is similar if I understand it to his attitude in the show.

 

How exactly is Anakin a different character in TCW? AOTC and ROTS basically showed Anakin on the worst days of his life. TCW showed Anakin more on his usual status quo days. I've seen people in real life on terrible days act "out of character" to a far greater divergence from any difference between TCW and movie Anakin. AOTC opened with Padme nearly getting killed and Anakin trying to protect her--he was basically freaking out inside the entire movie, and that's not even getting into his feelings for her. ROTS opened with Padme's unexpected pregnancy and Anakin having to deal with what this means for his career and life, as well as hers.

Yes PT gave Anakin the same development as Luke, but Luke was basically over the course of 4 years without any drastic change in his character (he matured and became a Jedi, but this was already his intention as far back as ANH when he told Obi-Wan he wanted to be a Jedi). With Anakin, you have someone who has basically thrown away their entire life philosophy, way of thinking, their very character and embraced a completely different mindset. This is going to need way more context and development to show how this could have happened. With Luke you merely had the character become a more mature version of the person they were before, but still had more or less the same mindset and values.

 

I disagree. I don't think Anakin's arc was in any way lacking in the PT other than possibly needing one more scene in AotC with Palp and him.
RotS isn't in need of any context.

 

Without TCW Anakin has to work years to get to knighthood and then doesn't get Master, the Council only accommodated the Chancellor. In TCW Anakin is granted knighthood days after massacring the Tusken Raiders, disobeying orders and nearly getting Obi-Wan killed against Dooku with his rashness which Yoda and Windu are portrayed as being fully aware off and then again days after being a Padawan himself is judged the right person to instruct a Padawan of his own to boot. This is him very soon after AOTC, and the way he was like at that time still canon, as far as I know. TCW can keep their "fixes".

 

The Council didn't know about the Tusken massacre. Yes, he nearly got killed rushing to face Dooku, but my reading of the new timeline with TCW was that at least 6 months have passed since AOTC before Anakin was knighted (I know that the Wild Space novel says 7 weeks, but I disagree with this if you shove in all the EU padawan Anakin material like Jabiim and Jedi Trial).

In Chapter 21 of the microseries Obi-Wan runs through the list of trials Anakin faced that justifies his Knighthood. Yes, we know Anakin's not ready but the council doesn't! We can judge because we know way more than the Council did at this point.

Obi-Wan displayed blatant contempt towards Jar-Jar and Anakin ("another pathetic life form"--Jedi really talk like this? I wouldn't let people in the real world talk like this!) and Qui-Gon recommended him for knighthood anyway. And he got it, complete with a padawan to train. So if there are problems with the Order knighting rash/immature people, they predated Anakin by quite a bit I think. Remember, these are the same Legends Jedi that gave Kaan a Jedi Masterhood, and let Quinlan stay a Knight despite all he did, and nearly sent Obi-Wan himself to the AgriCorps. Disney canon is even worse, letting Quinlan stay a Jedi Master in Dark Disciple despite his severe war crimes he willingly committed.

 

I think we actually mostly agree. I don't really have an issue with technology staying the same. I do love lore and epic histories, I just think this particular example was a bit too disconnected and would've been better with 10,000 years instead of 25,000. The thing about the Sith, what bothers me is just that for 20,000 years the Jedi's "arch enemy" is simply heretical Dark Jedi. It's only for 5,000 years that Sith show up to basically do the same thing. The Sith should be given more importance as the Jedi's "original enemy" IMO. But like you said, everyone has their own cup of tea.

 

I am curious how they handle Disney Sith origin. I don't know why they recanonized the Hundred Year Darkness, this may end up being shortened into the Two Hour Darkness with the inevitable Sith Origin movie.

As far as Legends is concerned, it seems more like, starting with Xendor, these Dark Jedi come up every so often and then get put down. With Ajunta Pall it took a little longer (100 years), but they were still put down (also, how did Pall live so long and still be young and fit to conquer Korriban? Sith alchemy?)

It's only when Pall's exiles meet the Sith species, who already have a dark side tradition dating from King Adas, that their combination creates the Sith Order so feared by the galaxy. Each element on its own (Sith dark side culture or dark Jedi) is not enough to threaten the Jedi--it's the combination of the 2 that makes the Sith Order a force to be reckoned with.

 

Yeah exactly I imagine even in the ancient republic, the expansion era and Ductavis era and so on there were occasional dark Jedi whole tried to become kings of worlds or start their little cults but they were probably put down most of the time. It's only when the exiles met a species that fit their inclinations to a tee did the Sith emerge as a physical and ideological threat to the Jedi and republic.

Another benefit of having deep lore like 25,000 year old republics is that allows the fan to use his or her imagination in a structured way fitting it?

We're there Jedi that opposed the often brutal colonization of the mid rim and expansion region?

Did the republic agressively wage war against minor interstellar states whose names and history have been lost to time?

The lore is an outline and we as readers are free to use our knowledge and imagination to picture it how we imagine.

 

There's only three years between AOTC-ROTS to go around, and Ahsoka visibly grows up a great deal between her introduction and her departure, so does Boba between appearances for that matter. And there was still a great deal of time left till the end of the war after the Clone Wars' six seasons. No way you got six months left to allocate to before TCW even starts. And AOTC shows the Jedi Council be aware of Anakin's ineptitude. And comparisons to Obi-Wan really don't make sense. Obi-Wan has been with the Jedi his whole life, he has spend much much more time learning the stuff he is expected to impart in his subsequent Padawan, and it was Qui-Gon's dying wish. With Ahsoka, they out of nowhere came to the conclusion that Anakin out of all possible Knights and Masters should be her teacher.

 

I just chalk it up to wartimes. The Jedi need more people being trained and knighted. Also, something something something Yoda.

 

That's fine, but don't claim it's a "fix" of what we had before. It is very problematic in it's own right.

 

Yeah, it is.

But I don't really care that much.

TCW is, overall, a superb show that gave us some great characters and characterizations over its six season run, including Ahsoka, Satine, Cad Bane, Ventress, Maul, Bo Katan, the Clones, Admiral Trench, Admiral Yularen, and more. If I have to accept a few minor errors in the timeline, then I will bear that oh so heavy burden.

 

Considering Ahsoka ended up fairly well-adjusted, I say the Council wasn't actually wrong in assigning Anakin as her master. Anakin did a good job instilling Jedi values in her, even if he ultimately was unable to live up to them himself. Yoda's words in the TCW movie reflect that he isn't worried for Ahsoka--he's worried about Anakin being able to let go of Ahsoka. It wasn't Ahsoka that Yoda was afraid of getting messed up by training with Anakin, it was Anakin himself. Yoda thought giving Ahsoka to Anakin would help Anakin with his attachment issues, but it only made them worse.

And Anakin was more alike in personality to Ahsoka. As he says, "You never would have made it as Obi-Wan's padawan. You might make it as mine." Yoda sent Ahoska to the Jedi most in-tune with Ahsoka to help her succeed.

Yes, she messed up a bit during that period she was framed, but she was only 16 at the time of her trial. And this wasn't Anakin's fault--he outright ordered her to turn herself back in. And he was the only one who ultimately cleared her. Would the other Jedi have done that? They'd have fallen in line with the Council. In fact, assigning Anakin to be Ahsoka's master was a very good choice (for her, maybe not so much for him).

Also, I think of TCW as happening in Jack Bauer '24' style time, so 6 months of Anakin being a padawan in the war wouldn't affect TCW at all.

 

Also with regards to Anakin you have to give him credit-he is on the council at 22 and is knighted 6 months before Coruscant)in the original CW timeline)

This is a young man with dozens of feats and accomplishments to his name, according to Legends sources a war hero during the clone wars, a Jedi with great potential.

And his clone wars persona as a cocky yet fairly light hearted guy who enjoys combat and flying ships does tie in well with the first scenes in ROTS. I mean he is in his element here-shooting droids, fighting Dooku, piloting a CIS ship into the atmosphere-that ties well within how he acted in TCW.

 

There are other options beside Obi-Wan, a few thousand in fact. And yeah, it is the failing of the teacher (at least in part) when the student stops listening. Anakin clearing her name didn't make her see the use of rejoining the Jedi Order when asked.