So, I watched Episode II for first time in 8 months...

waves back at PLJ (and her pretty colors). I can't wait to read what intelligent insights you'll have for us.

 

Also judging by the look on Yoda's face I think there is more going on inside his little green head than meets the eye.

The question remains though of how much exactly DOES Yoda know? I?m afraid that he seems to be seriously confused throughout the entire PT. He can?t see Anakin?s path in TPM- other than its clouded. He also obviously senses something weird is going on w/ Palpatine when they?re in the Chancellor?s office at the beginning of the movie, but he does nothing about finding out what that disturbance may be. Then he senses Anakin?s pain and hears Qui-Gon shouting from the great beyond. He also senses Obi-Wan and Anakin shouting on Geonosis.

Mace is the one who seems to give orders, while Yoda sits back and puzzles over everything. The problem is he can?t fit the pieces together because he has no idea what the grander picture of the puzzle are supposed to create.

Or does he know?

Yoda and Mace both believe that their ability to use the Force has diminished. The real question is why. Is it the Dark Side clouding their sight? Or is it from the fact that they?ve simply lost their way, and seem to no longer really understand how the Force works?

If we think about the prequels, we haven?t heard any great lofty, philosophical speeches on how the Force is ?a mystical energy field created by all living things that binds us, and illuminates the Galaxy.? Instead it is quantified by midi-chlorian levels. They attempt to categorize being Force-sensitive on a scientific level, instead of spiritually.

Even lightsabers which we learned to see as being these revered objects in the OT are seen as tools (Qui-Gon?s ingenious use on the bridge of the Trade Federation ship) or being told ?This weapon is your life.?

The Jedi overall have grown arrogant. Yoda admits and understands this, but he has no way of knowing how to reverse the tide.

I believe that Qui-Gon?s call was a rather wake-up call to Yoda, it was a way of reminding him that the Force exists on many planes, and sometimes, it cannot be quantified. Unfortunately, it took the complete destruction of the Jedi Order and the Republic for Yoda to have to face this dilemma.

When Yoda tells Luke that he is a Jedi, it?s true on a much deeper level. Luke was trained in a way that was very different than the Jedi of the Old Republic. He was taught to honor and respect the Force, and never take it for granted. Growing up as a humble farmer, Luke also has no delusions of grandeur, he was raised, maybe to dream big, but to accept the reality of life and the hardships that it can bring.

In this we see where he and his father depart ways. Anakin saw the Force only as a means for adventure and excitement. He was bogged down w/ the details of politics that he didn?t understand. He was thrust into the Jedi arena and led to believe he was meant for great things. Luke spent his whole life being discouraged to dream but to just be true to who he was. His journey in the films is to understand who he is as a person and find out what really lies in his heart. In that pure place, he ultimately shines.

 

It may be freezing here in NY, but I just experienced a warm ray of sunshine through a PadmeLeiaJaina post.

 

Agrees with ^^^^

PLJ it's good to see you on roll!

I always liked how Yoda was the only one actually having clues about the future. He's the only wise Jedi in the Order with the exception of Mace maybe, even though the latter seems to be a little too confident to really see the truth.
Yoda is the only one to see the first battle of the Clone Wars as it is. It is not a victory. They are all going to lose in the end.

We all know how it is going to end so the audience needs to have someone who understands better than anyone else. Otherwise the Jedi would appear a little too weak.

 

There's a perfect moment when Yoda is contemplating the battle towards the end, the look on his face, the music dramatically playing and the way he replies to the clone trooper "Very good commander", it just oozes a sense of foreboding in the little guy. He knows what's unfolding! Brilliant little moment for me.

 

Yes, and also the look Yoda give at the beginning in Palpatine's office. Digital characters acting w/o words.....displaying emotion and pensiveness.

 

Yoda is a great actor.

 

PLJ has a new fan. Until I can add something that hasnt already been said, I'll just sit back and absorb the intellect and wisdom shining here.

 

I really must watch both The Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones again soon. The last time I saw Attack of the Clones, I enjoyed it thoroughly, although I do have one or two criticisms about the film. Maybe I'll try it on my next day off!

 

The last time I saw Attack of the Clones, I enjoyed it thoroughly, although I do have one or two criticisms about the film.

But you still enjoyed it thoroughly. That's cool.

 

PadmeLeiaJaina rulz.

 

Yeah. Of course, it doesn't leave us with much left to discuss

Hey PLJ...any questions you have about SW? We'll tackle those instead

 

Thanks Damon- actually I do have a question.

Do you all think that Palpatine aka Sideous planned for the Council to find the Clones all along? Or was he hoping to spring them as a suprise and a show of his superior ruling skills after he was granted emergency powers?

My gut leads towards the second. The Jedi, like in TPM once again, managed to foil his plans and take some of the wind out of his sails.

What do you all think?

 

That's a good question. On the one hand you make a great point, but on the other hand, he didn't seem to have a "rat's foiled again!" attitude at the end either.

If anybody is devious enough and patient enough to set something up like that it is Palps. I always thought the Clone army being discovered just when the Rebublic suddenly finds itself needing an army, and the fact that said army was supposedly commissioned by a Jedi who died ten years ago, all seems just a little to convienent.


Like maybe Palpy intended things to happen as they are unfolding, the only thing I don't think he expected or planned for was Anakin getting married and Padme having his kids. That was the one unforseen thing that will be his downfall.

 

You got me on that one PLJ. Maybe he did. Maybe he did not. Hmmmm ?

Well he may have wanted them to find the Clones so that they could use them. That's the only way I can see it happening.

Know in TPM he did not want Padme to go back to Naboo we do know that.

I guess he did want them to find the Clones one why or they other.

 

There are too many chance occurances that led the Jedi to Kamino, and the fact that the archive records had been erased, presumably by Count Dooku, leads me to believe the Sith didn't want this to get out.

But like we saw in Episode I, Palpatine always keeps an ace up his sleeve just in case. In this instance, it just so happened that Obi-Wan's Geonosis discovery played beautifully into Palpatine's hand and in fact steered inquiry away from Kamino and the clone army. A little manipulation of gullible Jar Jar and he's sittin' pretty as the emperor with a war brewing and everybody's heads spinning so fast that nobody stops to ask the obvious questions.

By the time the whirlwind subsides, the Jedi find the Republic embroiled in a prolonged war, they realize they done been had but aren't terribly clear on the details, and their Chosen One just sealed his fate by ensuring that he'll have to live a life of constant deception.

So basically, the Jedi are up a gum tree without a paddle (that's an obscure Doctor Who reference, just in case you feel inclined to correct me).

 

I think he wanted the Jedi to find the Clones, and he wanted it to happen exactly at the time it happened. Just think about it: if they find the clones any sooner, they have too much time to think about a counter move. But what if the Separatists are ready for a war and the Clone Army is still undiscovered? How could he let the Senate know about the army, without making it obvious (or at least suspicious) that he acted behind their backs? It would be too risky imho and far not as elegant as letting the Jedi discover it just in time, and blaming the creation of it on them. This way he kills two birds with one stone: he gets his war and undermines the trust in the Jedi, all this without getting his hands dirty.

 

ShaakRider that's what I was thinking to. Let the Jedi take the fall on this one. Hey it worked with the TF in TPM.

 

I think he let the Jedi discover it, too. That way, he could blame the Jedi for starting the war because they led it and 'created' the clone army.

 

Interesting arguments...anyone else have anything to contribute?

 

Palpatine didn't have to trick the Jedi into finding the clones to make it look like they got caught with their hand in the cookie jar. Think about, he gets emergency power and vows to create his grand army. Palpatine orchestrates it so that some random senator "discovers" the clone army on Kamino and reports it to the senate (this way, Palpatine is not directly connected to the revelation). Through inquiry he "discovers" that *gasp* the Jedi ordered these clones!

Unfortunately for the Jedi, and very fortunately for Palpatine, Obi-Wan's effecient detective work only served to make the "evidence" that much more incriminating (after all, it was a Jedi who "discovered" the clone army!).

The only reason Obi-Wan even knew about Kamino was because of the saber dart that Jango shot Zam with. While using such a uniquely marked projectile may not have been prudent, he may have had Count Dooku's assurance that the Jedi would never find out about Kamino as he had erased all record of the planet from the Jedi archives (which could be why the analysis droids didn't recognize it? Hmmmm!), so he may have used the dart thinking, "Ha! They'll never trace this sucker!"

In other words, the Jedi finding out about Kamino was pure chance. Otherwise, it is just too convuluted of a plan to even be plausible.

 

In other words, the Jedi finding out about Kamino was pure chance. Otherwise, it is just too convuluted of a plan to even be plausible.
I don't think Palpatine planned exactly that way. But he did want someone, preferably the Jedi find it in the convenient time. Wouldn't they find out about the Kamino dart, I'm quite sure they would be given stronger clues besides, it's much easier to trick them into finding it, than a random senator, 'cause it's their job to go after such things.

 

O.K., so Palpatine's plan was to have the first assasination attempt on the landing platform fail so he could put Padme under Jedi guard. Then he planned for the second assasination attempt to fail and that the Jedi would be able to capture Zam so Jango could kill her with the Kamino saber dart? I don't think so.

Look, Palpatine is sneaky and all, but that sequence of events is far too contrived. It makes a lot more sense that things just kind of happened and Palpatine went with the flow. He may have planeed for the Jedi to ultimately find Kamino, but I have trouble believing it was this particular way.

 

Maybe i didn't make things clear, I do not think the exact sequence of events was all Palpatine's design. I think he would have produced some clues for the Jedi anyway, only by finding out the dart was from Kamino, they spared him the effort.

 

Alright ? so here?s my take on things.

Let?s look at the what if scenario. What if Zam had succeeded in her second assassination attempt?

Why does Palpatine suggest Obi-Wan and Anakin to protect Padme in the first place?

I think we can probably be reasonably certain that Palpy knew of Anakin?s feelings for Padme. Anakin?s hardly sly about his feelings, he wears his heart on his sleeve.

Palpatine?s plan was to use Padme as a way to turn Anakin to the Dark Side.

If Jango had been successful in assassinating Padme- Anakin would?ve been in major pain, anger, and would?ve started down the dark path. Knowing how Anakin felt that Obi-Wan?s teachings, Palpatine probably would?ve thought that Anakin would?ve blamed Obi-Wan and the Jedi for Padme?s death and Palpy would be there to finish the Chosen One?s teachings.

If this had happened, the Jedi would have never discovered Kamino ? no dart ? no discovery of the missing planet in the archives?etc. ? the Separatists would?ve made a move of some sort, and Palpatine would?ve used Jar-Jar in Padme?s place ? to grant him emergency powers. He then would?ve magically come up with this grand army of Clones and would?ve been seen the New Republic?s savior.

Palpatine had brilliantly set things up so that a convenient, now dead Jedi Sifo Dyas had ordered the creation of this Clone Army for the Republic. He?s dead- there?s no way to confirm why or how he arranged for the creation. But it all looks legitimate. And with the Jedi now involved in war- they wouldn't have had the time to try to figure out the details of things. Throughout it all- they also would?ve never learned that Dooku was Sith.

Now onto what really happened.

Zam failed.

Palpatine certainly wouldn?t have expected Obi-Wan to fling himself out of a window and he and Anakin give chase to the would-be assassin. They go after Zam and Jango is forced to kill her before she can spill the beans.

BAM he uses the Kamino saber dart a device that does not appear in any of the archives, and comes from a planet nobody at the Jedi Temple has heard of- because all traces of the planet have been erased.

Thanks to Qui-Gon being a step out of norm, he had made friends w/ Dex and Obi-Wan had a shady/friend/contact who recognized the dart and pointed Obi-Wan in the right direction.

Yoda and Obi-Wan realize that something foul smelling is afoot w/ Kamino being removed from the Jedi Archives and Obi-Wan goes off looking for Kamino.

At this point, all Palpatine knows is that Obi-Wan is ?looking for the would-be assassins.? Never during the course of the film does he learn directly from the Jedi that they?ve discovered the Clone Army.

You?ll note that when he gives his speech he pronounces proudly before the Senate that ?I will create a grand army for the Republic!?

Well guess what, he doesn?t. The Jedi have already discovered the Army and sent it into action. The Jedi are the ones who the Clones are obedient to and take orders from. If Palpatine had planned on putting his own men in charge of the legions- he now can?t. The Jedi have now encroached their leadership upon his Clones.

The interesting thing is that I used to think that Dooku and Palpatine had planned things all along to go down this way ? but now I realize that?s just not the case.

You?ll note that Dooku is making decisions on the fly when he?s talking to the Geonosian leader. ?How did the Jedi amass such a large army in such a short amount of time?? ?There are too many of them.?

Dooku realizes that Sideous?s plans are seriously altered and he doesn?t object to the retreat.

On the flip side of things ? for the first time when Sideous?s plans failed, they actually fell into his favor. The war just began a little sooner than they had planned and Anakin disobeyed the Jedi Code and married Padme. And this way, rather like ShaakRider pointed out ?with the Jedi being the ones who brought the Clones into the war ? they could be blamed for things if the Republic started to fail in the war.

I think the real question that