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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Senate So it looks like the Ebola outbreak is getting more serious

Discussion in 'Community' started by Space_Wolf, Jul 30, 2014.

  1. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 4, 2003
    Once again, both the CDC and all medical experts on ebola do not support the ban. It's something that a former homeless, present-day bigot, and full time Republican governor made up because it sounded tough. It's presence or absence does nothing to make anyone more or less safe or healthy. That besides, the judicial system didn't even uphold the quarantine. What are you on about?
     
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  2. Rogue_Ten

    Rogue_Ten Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Aug 18, 2002
    almost none of that post is comprehensible but the thing im most intrigued by is that apparently the nurse gave Allan Quartermain ebola?
     
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  3. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 4, 2003
    People is selfishness that do it for the right reasons, Rogue Number Ten.
     
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  4. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 2002
    *shellfishness
     
  5. Valairy Scot

    Valairy Scot Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 16, 2005
    And what about the "science" that she can't transmit the disease UNTIL and UNLESS she develops symptoms? So maybe she does before the 21 days is up: until then she's no more a threat than you or I.
     
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  6. ShaneP

    ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2001

    You know thats not what Im talking about. I applaud her selflessness and courage to go to those areas and help people facing such a deadly disease. But volunteering for an Ebola outbreak doesn't give her unlimited individual liberty upon her return at the expense of the collective good. She's acting like the 21 day quarantine at home is such an impediment to her travels. It's 21 days.

    It's her saying my individual liberties trump the common good.
     
  7. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 4, 2003
    No it isn't. Because there is no "common good" that's derived from making this lady sit in her house for 21 days. It doesn't reduce the chance of spreading the infection.
     
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  8. ShaneP

    ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2001
    Yes, there is. And the quarantines you were talking about were the ones in a medical facility. She had a right to complain there because the treatment was shoddy.

    And she wouldn't be sitting in her house for 21 days. Thats not how it works.
     
  9. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 4, 2003
    ShaneP: Post a statement from a professional medical organization explaining the benefit of the proposed quarantine.
     
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  10. Falcon

    Falcon Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 7, 2002
    self quarantine limits the spread of the infection, thats the benefit of quarantine.
     
  11. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 4, 2003
    FROM A PROFESSIONAL MEDICAL ORGANIZATION


    No one cares what your personal, uninformed opinion is.
     
  12. Mr44

    Mr44 VIP star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 21, 2002
    It makes sense from the standpoint of overall public health policy, which is precisely why the DOD instituted it with regards to members of the military. Really, all you have to do is consider it to be part of the original commitment. Sure, it's noble to go to Liberia for 90 days and help treat Ebola patients. When signing up for the commitment, just make it for 90 days plus 21, and you get to do the last part back home. There's no stigma at all.

    See, Hickox (the nurse) is correct that she isn't showing symptoms now, and thus, can't transmit the virus. That's science. But quarantines, as policy, aren't concerned with the individual, and that's science as well. Since Ebola has a 21 day incubation period, what if Hickox starts showing symptoms at day 16? What if 3 more people return, and 1 doesn't show any symptoms at all, one does right away, and the 3rd person doesn't, but then develops a fever at day 8? What if 5 more then return, and 2 don't have symptoms, 2 want to go for a cross country bike ride, and 1 wants to go back to work right away at a hospital? You literally have 8 different contingencies. From the standpoint of promoting a unified policy and control, it makes sense to apply the same standard to each, pass the point of safety, and then move on, even if the majority of people don't show symptoms. Otherwise, what is the expectation moving forward, that each specific individual will come up with their own "ebola plan," based on what they are comfortable with, instead of simply having a unified policy that can be monitored and verified?
     
  13. Rogue_Ten

    Rogue_Ten Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Aug 18, 2002
     
  14. yankee8255

    yankee8255 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 31, 2005

    Except that you're way off base on the law. Her civil liberties can certainly be curtailed in order to achieve a substantial public policy interest (i.e. your "common good") but only to the extent that there is not an equally effective, less onerous means of achieving that goal. And there is: self-monitoring of one's temperature several times a day. Which is what she's doing. If Governors LePage, Christie and Cuomo wanted to, they could most likely make the monitoring mandatory to some degree without running afoul of Constitutional protections, but they'd rather grab the big headlines.

    Incidentally, everyone's favorite poster-child for selfish altruism is actually observing a self-imposed limited quarantine, avoiding crowded public places, etc. She's had a few friends visit, and been out biking. The selfish bitch.

    EDIT: Add the NE Journal of Medicine to the list of those who say mandatory quarantines are unneccesary and possibly counterproductive. Or continue listing to fear-mongering hacks with no medical training whatsoever on the radio and TV.
     
  15. Jabbadabbado

    Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Mar 19, 1999
    This is exactly what the CDC recommends for health care workers who have had exposure to Ebola patients in the affected countries:

    Asymptomatic individuals in the high risk category should have direct active monitoring for 21 days after the last potential exposure. The individual should be ensured, through public health orders as necessary, to undergo direct active monitoring, have restricted movement within the community, and not travel on any public conveyances. Non-congregate public activities while maintaining a 3-foot distance from others may be permitted. These individuals are subject to controlled movement which will be enforced by federal public health travel restrictions; travel, if allowed, should occur only by noncommercial conveyances, with coordination by origin and destination states to ensure a coordinated hand-off of public health orders, if issued, and uninterrupted direct active monitoring.
     
  16. Jedi Merkurian

    Jedi Merkurian Future Films Rumor Naysayer star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    May 25, 2000
    Yes, because dealing with people whose often-fatal disease causes toxic explosive diarrhea and vomiting, with the risk of exposing oneself to the selfsame disease is totally grandstanding.
     
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  17. yankee8255

    yankee8255 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 31, 2005

    So then the New York bowling doctor (assuming he was "high risk") violated the the recommendation since he took the subway (a public conveyance)?

    Incidentally, any idea when the 21 days from the second Dallas nurse's plane trip end?
     
  18. Falcon

    Falcon Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 7, 2002
    November 10th I think.
     
  19. Ezio Skywalker

    Ezio Skywalker Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 29, 2013
    The Facebook comments on Yahoo's article about the Maine nurse are pretty disturbing. People basically calling this woman a selfish, self-righteous coward. That theme continues for what looks like several dozen comments.
     
  20. slightly_unhinged

    slightly_unhinged Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 28, 2014
    Things you're more likely to die of than ebola

    #8 Tesla's death ray
     
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  21. Jabbadabbado

    Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Mar 19, 1999
    The CDC statement has the look of being post Amber Vinson and her Frontier airlines flight, so maybe relatively new and more robust from previous recommendations, but I'm just guessing about that.
     
  22. Mr44

    Mr44 VIP star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 21, 2002
    Wocky, Rogue? This seems like exactly the type of standardized, unambiguous response that Maine, New Jersey, New York. and the DOD implemented. That is, assuming that one understands that the CDC's euphemism of "direct active monitoring" is exactly what used to be called a quarantine. For some reason though, absent from the directive is any kind of phrase which says "go on random bike rides when you feel like it because you can."
     
  23. Jabbadabbado

    Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Mar 19, 1999
    Direct active monitoring is not a quarantine.

    It's distinguished from "active monitoring."

    CDC defines it as follows:

     
  24. Mr44

    Mr44 VIP star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 21, 2002
    Right, which was what the plan was all along. See, the key to success is obviously a scale within the framework, it says as much right in the guidelines. So, if someone is compliant with the order and doesn't have symptoms for X days in a row, monitoring requirements are reduced. Obviously, the requirements during the first couple of days aren't going to be the same as in the last couple of days, depending on the indications. Additionally, the CDC recommends that "direct authoritative intervention" may be required if the person isn't complying. But you have to establish that under the guidelines.

    You can't have 8 different scales for 8 different people, and you can't have people randomly riding their bikes around on day 2 promising that they really won't come within 3 ft of people, honest...

    It's funny, but the restrictions that the nurse ended up "agreeing to" where the same restrictions that she would have ended up anyway. I think the nurse ended up "voluntarily complying" because it was pointed out to her that she would have huge liability on the off-chance that she started showing symptoms on day 16 and ended up infecting someone else. Imagine the civil lawsuit. "Wait- so you were initially provided with quarantine restrictions because you were in the high potential risk factor, you ignored those, and now my client, a mother of 3, is infected with Ebola?" She might as well just set up a direct deposit to the other family for her paychecks the rest of her life.

    I think a better policy is just to incorporate those guidelines into the initial volunteer agreement. Go to Africa for 90 days to help treat people, but part of your obligation will be to spend 21 days at the end under CDC restrictions. Done and done.
     
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  25. Jabbadabbado

    Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Mar 19, 1999
    It's hard to imagine a country bicycle ride or even a bicycle ride through downtown Chicago running afoul of any of the CDC guidelines. Amsterdam would be another matter. I don't think I was ever more than 6 inches away from another bicyclist at any time riding around in Amsterdam.