So its safe to say that the Republic's downfall was Qui-Gon's fault?

It was all the will of the force, qui-gon and even palpatine are pawns of the force. jedi and sith are all part of the force and the force works through them both.

Darth Callidus, I applaud you!


Talking about who's fault it is really goes against the whole philosophy of SW & the living force. Every single action by every single person was as the force willed, and it all balanced out in the end. I read somewhere that Qui-Gon was able to see that Anakin needed to be trained, and set into motion the events that needed to happen, because he trusted the force instead of the council. The council was too busy trying to follow the code and gradually lost sight of the will of the force. So if you follow that line of thought, Qui-Gon becomes what a Jedi truly should be, a vehicle of the force's will. Qui-Gon helped save the galaxy, it just took six movies for him to do it!

 

The Republic's downfall would have happened regardless if Anakin had been recruited into the Sith. That's key. So although Anakin's fall might have been averted if Qui Gon hadn't discovered him, the Republic's would have happened anyway.

So really, Qui Gon's actions actually enabled the restoration of the Republic in the long run, because he put Anakin into the picture. But the thing is, I think that in the end, everyone is reponsible for their own action and for creating their own destiny. Yoda's admission about possibly interpreting the prophecy incorrectly sort of alludes to that. In the end, Qui Gon plays his part and can't be held accountable for the long series of events that occur after his end because he didn't manufacture or neglect to identify any of those happenings. He wasn't there. It's a bit absurd to try and lay the blame all on the shoulders of one who did his best to stop the tragedy; even paying with his life.

All throughout the Prequels; the Jedi never had a chance, because they're constantly chasing the wrong leads. This is what makes the title 'Phantom Menace' so accurate. By the time everything falls into place and the 'Phantom' has been identified; it's Anakin who betray's the Republic, not Qui Gon. And even if Anakin had chose the right path, and supported Mace; who's to say he would have succeeded? The prophecy!?? With Yoda's admission, it's clear that Anakin's relevence is uncertain at best. Sidious might have mopped the floor with both Mace and Anakin.

To try and pin it all on Qui Gon because of his hand in Anakin's future, defeats a valuable lesson. It's like saying, don't try your best to do what's right because your actions may pave the way for unfathomable destruction in times ahead. The story isn't about finding a fall guy in all of this. It's about the complexity of people and how no one can predict what a single action may affect down the line. Had Anakin chose to save the day and defeated Sidious; we'd be praising Qui Gon for his decisions and yet they haven't changed one bit; only the actions of Anakin have. It's a flawed ideology.

 

"Right. I think people forget that the destruction of the Jedi Order was probably one of the Steps in fullfilling the prophecy. It wasnt just the Sith that were a problem to the force, it was also the bloated and now arrogant Jedi Order. There were too many Jedi, and they had become to enthralled with thier own power; especially politically.

When the Jedi say in RoTS they will have to take charge of the Senate until things cool down, well that is a very clear message by Lucas about the state of the Jedi. He is saying that not everything Sidius has said is a lie. The Jedi have indeed become to arrogant of their own powers and position in the galaxy.

The Jedi were governing (other Jedi) by strict rules and guidelines. They were no longer using the will of the force to guide them, or their padawans.

The purge of the Jedi was neccassary to bring balance to"

i think you assume too much.

how do people come to the outrageous conclusion that the jedi throw the force into a state of imbalance? yes the jedi were arrogant...but they werent obsessed with keeping their power as palpatine says. the jedi were selfless and only thought of others.

and about the jedi taking over the senate: that is not a clear message that the jedi are obsessed with power...its a message by lucas to show that the jedi have "battlefields" on many fronts. they have so much to worry about, both within the government they serve, and their enemies. the jedi were willing to make a controversial move, in order to achieve peace. and remeber "peaceful transition" the jedi werent going to hold on to their power, but act as facilitators

and strict rules? the rules you put down exist for reasons. and not only that, the jedi have proven themselves to be very dynamic.

episode 1: ~allow anakin into the order, despite him being too old
episode 2: ~give an arrogant padawan a very important mission to protect a senator
~decide to fight in a war because it is their only option, even though their code, full of "strict rules" forbids it

the decimation of the jedi ranks was not necessary balance. it only happend because one selfish and fearful man coudlnt except the fact that death was a natural part of life.

 

umm, this is stupid, Qui Gon saved teh Galaxy noobs.

 

YYZ-2112 says, " Sidious might have mopped the floor with both Mace and Anakin. "

Huh?? he was on his back begging for his life, dude. Even right after Mace's death he states if they don't strike first the Jedi will kill the Sith including himself. Then he was trying to run away from Yoda and he still couldn't touch him with a 20 foot lighsaber.

So don't give me that the Republic would have fell anyway because the Sith were too powerful. The Jedi were in complete control right up until Anakin turned. Without Anakin the Sith wouldn't have killed the Jedi. He is the one almost singlehandedly wiped them out.

 

Sidious had his plans already in motion at the time of TPM.

Qui-Gon did NOT cause the republic's downfall.

The Empire would have still risen regardless of who was at Sidious's side (Dooku or Vader)

 

Order 66 was already established long before Anakin turns. His fight with Mace was intentional to allow Anakin a vehicle to fall. Sidious wanted Anakin as his Apprentice to serve him and carry out the secretive orders. He could have fought Anakin in that corridor before he allerted Mace. Then he could have enabled Order 66 and wiped out all the Jedi just as he did. He only wanted Anakin for his potential power. He allowed Anakin to alert the Jedi because he had NO FEAR of losing his life to them. Sidious dominated the duel with Mace until Anakin shows up, then he plays the victim and loses his lightsaber to make Mace overconfident. The fact that he had another already crafted for the duel with Yoda, shows that losing it was no big deal.

So just because I said Sidious could have mopped the floor with both Anakin and Mace doesn't absolutely mean he'd fight them together or even fairly. He could have set traps for either of them. With that said, he probably could have still dusted them both. Only Yoda could have beaten him and even then Sidious tosses senate pods like marbles, whereas Yoda has trouble controlling just one.

Sidious had all the angles covered, he didn't need Anakin. Anakin was just a bonus to give absolute power to the Sith Order and it's future.

 

i think that the real questions that should be answered to finish up this thread is first, what were the key differences between qui-gon's beliefs and the established order.Secondly how would that affected anakin's padawaanship... because the important point is that Quigon WAS gonna train Anakin no matter what the council said, meaning he didnt plan on dying in the first place. Also, would Quigon's belief really push him to join Dooku's Separatist thus Anakin still joining the dark side and go on winning the war for the confederates?

 

It was not Qui-Gon's fault. He did not find Ani by accident. Anakin was chosen one,but Qui-Gon could not forsee what would take place for Anakin to fufill the prophecy. It was Anakin's destiny.

 

> leaves only Luke "a good jedi" left in the universe thus balancing the force.

Balanced, against the equal and opposite Force of the Sith Queen formerly known as Leia...

 

your so wrong Mr. Maaul. Go pick up the latest issue of rolling stone with Darth Vader on the cover. In that magazine, they interview Geroge Lucas and he says Anakin is the choosen one. So stop trying to screw with George. George says Anakin is the choosen one, that should be good enough for you.

 

There is no such thing as a perfect solution, even in fictional scenarios. Each decision you make has a positive, and a negative, no matter how you try to perfect the reprecussions of your choice.

Had Jar Jar not been saved by Qui-gon, he and Obi-wan would have never gotten to Ototh Gunga and been provided with ships to escape. Had Qui-gon not stepped in yet again to spare Jar Jar from punishment for re-entering the city, the Gungans would have never joined Padme's effort, and Naboo would be dust, along with Obi-wan and Qui-gon.

And without Obi-wan, Luke would have been dead meat.

Sure, Jar Jar was manipulated by Palpatine, but so was Padme, the rest of the Jedi, and Yoda. Palpatine would have fooled any other Senator to do it, Jar Jar was just at the wrong place and the wrong time.

Qui-gon recognized Anakin when no one else would have. Had he passed him off as just another slave boy, like Obi-wan so carelessly did, Anakin would have remained on Tatooine and Palpatine would have effortlessly taken over the Senate with Dooku and/or Grievous. Worse, Darth Maul could have found him, killed Shmi and taken him straight to Palpatine.

Anakin had emotional attachments, unlike Dooku or Grievous. Luke couldn't have forced the other two to pity him, like he did with Vader, and certainly would've never beaten them.

Qui-gon was right, and perhaps if the Jedi Council had listened to him, they might have reformed themselves and prevented some of the factors that contributed to Anakin's fall. They had it coming - you can't run a dogmatic, conceited association for over two thousand years and except nothing to go wrong.

 

"Qui-gon was right, and perhaps if the Jedi Council had listened to him, they might have reformed themselves and prevented some of the factors that contributed to Anakin's fall. They had it coming - you can't run a dogmatic, conceited association for over two thousand years and except nothing to go wrong"

first off, here is the definition of dogmatic: marked by an authoritative, arrogant assertion of unproved or unprovable principles.

now, granted, the jedi order was arrogant, in the sense, they believed if a sith were near, they'd surly be able to find them.

even then, the jedi order humbled themselves:
"do you belive what count dooku said about sidious controlling the senate? it doenst feel right"
"joined the DS dooku has. lies, deciet, creating mistrust are his ways now"
"nevertheless I FEEL WE SHOULD KEEP A CLOSER EYE ON THE SENATE"

they knew the threat may be there, so they werent as arrogant as some may postulate. heck, the suspected palpatine of dictorial ambitions, even before they knew he was a sith...and werent they right to do so?

now are the jedi's principles unprovable? to the rest of the galaxy...yes. but to anakin, and the likes of palaptine, the force is a very tangible energy source. now many have argued that the jedi's theories on attachment of the PT were flawwed, and that they change as yoda and obi move into their positions as luke's teachers in the OT. i beg to differ. the jedi have no problem with one of their own forming a friendship, or caring deeply for someone. what they do frown upon, THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE SAGA, is throwing everything to the wind, and doing anything to save a single person.

anakin goes to the DS for padme, because of his ATTACHMENT not his love. he saw padme as a possession, which is one reason why the jedi forbid loving relationships. because passions can become so consuming, that you view the other as "yours." were they wrong? certainly!but you can see why they forbid certain relationships..becuase the temptation is almost too great to overcome. but luke later proves them wrong, only after falling to the DS himself.

"give yourself to the DS. it is the only way you can save your friends"
minutes later
"never, ill never turn the DS"

so luke shows that it is possible to have strong attachments, yet at the same time resist the powerful the DS can have, to make you do anything to save those whome you care deeply for. but certainly it is a very diffcult view, or rather point of view to arrive to. attachments to others can nearly consume you, and this is what was anakin's downfall, and nearly led to luke's downfall as well. the jedi were right to believe attachments can lead to the DS, but were wrong to believe it was impossible to have attacments, and be able to let go of them before the DS can bring you over.

but does tham mean the jedi DESRVED what they got? does that mean they had it comin'? if you think yes...then you've missed the whole point of the saga.

and the views of the jedi were in no ways "conceited" or dogmatic. their theoreies were there for a reason, and the jedi followed the spirit of the rules and codes they created, and didnt blindly follow them, just because it was a traidition.

and the jedi knew there was potentiol for things to go wrong. thats why they didnt want anakin trained as a jedi in the first place. they knew he was too fearful, and it would be incredibly hard to drive the fear away from him. just because one single individual cant adapt to the system, doesn't mean that the whole system should be condemmned.

so bottom line: jedi were arrogant, but certainly not dogmatic.

and on another subject...i find it odd how everyone is suddenly using the word "dogmatic" to condemn the jedi. wasnt it the evil sith lord who used this word in the latest film? wasnt he the one lying, and manipulating throughout the saga, in order to meet his own selfish means? think about that before you once again cite that word. or at least be more creative and use another word.

 

i disagree with this thread because i think palps could have fone it without anakin.he had like a gizillion clones at his command.all he had to do was to execute order 66 and every jedi would have died(except for yoda of course)

 

Nope. The republic would have fallen anyway. Palpatine would have just manipulated the Jedi one way or another to get his way. Anakin was the chosen one, he just took one hell of a detour in his quest to destroy the Sith.

 

> So its safe to say that the Republic's downfall was Qui-Gon's fault?

nah, it was Shmi's fault for letting little Ani feel bad when he left her ... or no, it's probably Obi-Wan's fault for training the kid ... or no, it's definitely Yoda's for not staying firm on his belief that the kid's future is troubled ... or no, it might be Padme's for not taking the pill ... or maybe Mace Windu for not counter-attacking Anakin at the last moment ... got to be Jar-Jar for getting in trouble in the Tatoine market allowing Ani to talk to Qui-Gon ...

 

Well, I think it was inevitible that the Republic was going to fall. Qui-Gon might have had some influence, but I don't think he directly responsible for it. Look at the corruption in the Senate, at the highest levels of government, and the secret creations of the clones.Eveything was falling into place for the eventual downfall of the Republic and the Rise Of The Empire.

 

Yes, it is mostly Qui-Gonn's fault for the republic's downfall. One reason that hasn't been discussed much , is the fact that after discovering Anakin and bringing him before the Council, he ends up going back to Naboo and gets himself killed. Now this results in a twofold problem. first of all no Qui-Gonn around to attend to the subtle training, advocating, and mentoring of Anakin. He is obvioulsy very adept at training powerful Jedi and he had a sort of insight into Anakin's potential and possibilities that would've been helpful in throughout the training process to keep the Chosen One on track. Secondly, remember that one of the primary reasons that Dooku left the Jedi order is because Qui-Gonn was killed in while serving to what he felt was a lost, corrupt, and inept Senate. I guess that Qui-Gonn was scared of Mace, or that there must have been some other history between them. Mace promised Qui-Gonn that they would use "All their resources" to find out who assaulted him on tatooine, but they didn't do anything. When the Queen was heading back to Naboo and Mace orders Qui-Gonn to accompany her, Qui-Gonn should've said something like "Hey, I've got a chosen child to look after here, why don't you and Ki-Adi and all your other resources go tangle with this Sith MoFo, that you don't believe me exists. I'm not going to get sliced up why you sit here with your ship and cup test."

 

Jedi-Asajj-Ventress
I thank you.

 

The fall of the Republic was certainly not Qui-Gon's fault. Obviously, the finding and training of Anakin led to the fall of the Republic, but that does not place Qui-Gon at fault. Palpatine was already taking over at that point - he was a Sith no matter what, and would have ended up ruling the galaxy with or without Anakin.

Now, this begs the question: where does the fault lie? It lies with the Jedi in general. They were too set in their ways; they believed each and every one of their traditions were right because they had "worked" for so long. However, quite the opposite was true - while the Jedi were sitting around doing the same thing for a thousand years, the Sith were slowly gaining power.

Why couldn't the Jedi sense this? The Sith are patient. They increased their point so slowly that the Jedi did not pick up on it. That small spark of darkness? Probably just a young apprentice getting frustrated over something. Think of it as a frog in a pan of water. If one turns up the heat very slowly, the frog doesn't realize it is getting burned until it is too late. The same is true of the Jedi - they didn't realize the Sith were returning until it was too late.

Had they not been so set in their ways, and perhaps experimented with new uses of the Force, they may have been able to sense the Sith's existance and destroy them before they could gain enough power and influence to cause the fall of the Republic.

 

The Downfall of the Republic occurred because of Anakin Skywalker, not Qui-Gon. Sidious was apprentice-less when he revealed that he was the Sith Lord to Anakin. Later, Anakin should have helped Mace arrest Palpatine, and perhaps execute him, then and there, so that there could be no more Sith Masters or Apprentices.

 

"I think it is obvious that [Qui-Gon] was wrong in Episode I and made a dangerous decision, but ultimately this decision may be correct. The ?phantom menace? refers to the force of the dark side of the universe. Anakin will be taken over by dark forces which in turn destroy the balance of the Galaxy, but the individual who kills the Emperor is Darth Vader?also Anakin. The tale meanders and both the prediction and Qui-Gon are correct?Anakin is the chosen one, and he did bring peace at last with his own sacrifice. Luke couldn't kill the Emperor himself, but he could make Anakin reflect on his life and kill the Emperor."

--George Lucas, Cut Magazine interview, 1999


"It really has to do with learning," Lucas says, "Children teach you compassion. They teach you to love unconditionally. Anakin can't be redeemed for all the pain and suffering he's caused. He doesn't right the wrongs, but he stops the horror. The end of the Saga is simply Anakin saying, I care about this person, regardless of what it means to me. I will throw away everything that I have, everything that I've grown to love- primarily the Emperor- and throw away my life, to save this person. And I'm doing it because he has faith in me; he loves me despite all the horrible things I've done. I broke his mother's heart, but he still cares about me, and I can't let that die. Anakin is very different in the end. The thing of it is: The prophecy was right. Anakin was the chosen one, and he does bring balance to the Force. He takes the one ounce of good still left in him and destroys the Emperor out of compassion for his son."

--George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith, page 221

"If good and evil are mixed things become blurred - there is nothing between good and evil, everything is gray. In each of us we to have balance these emotions, and in the Star Wars saga the most important point is balance, balance between everything. It is dangerous to lose this. In The Phantom Menace one of the Jedi Council already knows the balance of The Force is starting to slip, and will slip further. It is obvious to this person that The Sith are going to destroy this balance. On the other hand a prediction which is referred to states someone will replace the balance in the future. At the right time a balance may again be created, but presently it is being eroded by dark forces. All of this shall be explained in Episode 2, so I can't say any more!"

--George Lucas, Time Magazine article, 2002

"The Midichlorians have brought Anakin into being as ?the chosen one? who will balance the universe. The mystery around that theory is that we don?t know yet whether the chosen one is a good or a bad person. He is to bring balance to the Force; but at this point, we don?t know what side of the Force needs to be balanced out."

--George Lucas, quoted in L. Bouzereau, Star Wars: The Making of Episode I, 1999

"The first film starts with the last age of the Republic; which is it's getting tired, old, it's getting corrupt. There's the rise of the Sith, who are now becoming a force, and in the backdrop of this you have Anakin Skywalker: a young boy who's destined to be a very significant player in bringing balance back to the Force and the Republic.

In the second film, we get into more of that turmoil. It's the beginning of the Clone Wars, it's the beginning of the end of democracy in the Republic, sorta the beginning of the end of the Republic, and it's Anakin Skyalker beginning to deal with some of his more intense emotions of anger, hatred, sense of loss, possessiveness, jealousy, and the other things he's coping with.

Then we will get to the 3rd film, where he is seduced to the dark side, which brings up to films four, five, and six, where Anakin's offspring redeem him & allow him to fulfill the prophecy where he brings balance to the Force by doing away with the Sith and getting rid of evil in the universe."

--George Lucas, The Star Wars Trilogy VHS Boxset 2000.

"Right or wrong this is my movie, this is my decision, and this is my creative visio

 

After all he was responsible for the discovery and misread notion that Anakin's was the chosen one

Misread? Anakin was the chosen one. If anyone is to blame it's the council for not giving someone like Yoda Anakin as his padawan. By Obiwan's own admission he was not ready to train someone, especially the chosen one yet. He was just Knighted.

 

All Qui-gon is guilty of is not accepting that Anakin might be dangerous. But he is right, Anakin's the Chosen One. Things were eventually put right in ROTJ.