So Mace Windu isn't Dead when he gets pushed out of the window...

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by Darksithlord99, May 4, 2005.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. bad4good Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 6, 2006
    Possibly. Has there been any official explanation about why Leia is a princess though?
  2. Sidious-3 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2005
    star 3
    We are getting off topic guys... Oh well this thread is just going to crash and burn very soon

    It shouldn't even be going on right now!
  3. Get_in_Gear Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2004
    star 5

    Bail cannot be king because he is not of Royal bloodline.
    You can't just marry into the royal family and become a monarch.
    That's how it works on Earth, and that's how it works in a GFFA.
    By marrying the Queen of Alderaan, Bail adopts the title of Prince Consort.
    Leia is a princess, however, because she is officially adopted as Breha and Bail's daughter.
    As the Queen's daughter, she is in line for the throne as a rightfull heir and earns the title of Princess.
  4. JarJarPlagueis Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 24, 2005
    star 1
    According to the ROTJ novel, the Organas are indeed royalty. But I guess that's the evil, lying EU that has no basis in anything? 8-}
  5. Get_in_Gear Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2004
    star 5
    Did I say Bail wasn't royalty?
    He is the Queen's Prince Consort - part of the royal family.
    I just said he was never a monarch.
    And things cut from Lucas' scripts are obviously cut for a reason, if something makes it into a novelisation before the film is refined, then that's tough luck.
    The Kenobi dialogue was cut.
    Kahn chose to keep it.
    That's his perogative.
    Shame it doesn't reflect Lucas' finished film...

    Besides, none of this off-topic banter has brought Mace back to life yet.
  6. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Prince constort is royalty, but not by blood. But by marriage. Leia is adopted by Breha, which is why she's Princess.
  7. DarthDubya05 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 1, 2005
    star 4
    if you think about about it, any Jedi we didn't see die in Episode 3 are still alive. for that matter, how do we know the Clones killed the Jedi in the temple anyway? they could have been sleeping when Yoda and Obi-Wan walked through there.

    the way i see it, No body, no death. that means that Uncle Owen and Beru Lars could still be alive. who ever said it was them anyway? they could have been two other innocent people.:p
  8. Darth_Killer________ Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 26, 2005
    [face_laugh] =D= [face_laugh]
    [face_laugh] [face_laugh]
  9. Darth_Killer________ Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 26, 2005
  10. JarJarPlagueis Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 24, 2005
    star 1
    Just because a line doesn't make it into the film doesn't mean that GL changes his mind. A novel has the ability to go into much greater detail than a film. GL, as arguably the best living moviemaker, knows how much exposition the casual moviegoer can tolerate, and considering that all of the SW films are among the top grossers of all time, he obviously knows what he's doing.

    In any event, there's nothing in any of the films contradicting this fact. So it's not that Bail is some average Joe who marries into the royal family. Rather, he comes from the royal family and was royalty before his marriage. Maybe he's a (distant?) cousin of Breha? It's EXTREMELY common for royalty on earth to intermarry, so why not in the GFFA too? Maybe she was already named Organa, like Franklin Demon Roosevelt's wife Eleanor, who was born a Roosevelt?

  11. Get_in_Gear Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2004
    star 5
    Again, when did I suggest that was or wasn't a rule of thumb?
    All I was saying is that, in this specific instance, Lucas dropped Ben's dialogue on Dagobah for a definite narrative reason - he didn't want Return of the Jedi to go into the Skywalker's backgrounds too much.
    He wanted to keep it vague.

    In this specific instance - yes he has changed his mind, because we now know Owen is not Obi-Wan's brother, Leia was not taken to Alderaan by her mother, and Anakin did know about the pregnancy.

    Besides all of which, the novelization actually has this to say about Bail:

    "Your mother took Leia to live as the daughter of Senator Organa, on Alderaan. [...] The Organa family was high-born and politically quite powerful in that system. Leia became a Princess by virtue of he lineage. [...] Even so, the family continued to be politically powerful, and Leia, following in her father's footsteps, became a senator as well."

    That is all still true, except, of course, Leia's mother was dead by the time Leia was brought to Aderaan, and we now know it carries more resonance to think of Leia as following in Padmé's footsteps as a Senator and firebrand.

    So Bail is never really described as a monarch, that still holds true.
    His wife is the Queen of Alderaan, a title with little power as Alderaan had long been a democracy, Bail is high-born, but he is not of the royal bloodline - he is the Queen's Prince Consort.
    As First Chairman and Viceroy of Alderaan, his political profile is far more important anyway.

    And I have said nothing to contest that - novels certainly can enhance the experience, I agree.
    But they also have to flesh out a screenplay, and in order to do so, authors routinely draw on everything approaching official they can get their hands on - primarily dropped dialogue and scenes and rejected concepts.
    nine times out of ten, this does not cause a problem and, as you say, actually gives us an opportunity to see the nuances of a film in more detail.
    Every now and again, however, something is brought in which clashes with what we learn from the films - it is bound to happen. Some stuff hits the cutting room floor because it simply doesn't work.

    I'm not sure that that's the case, but if you want to believe that, then fine - it still makes him just a Prince Consort to the Queen, and not a ruling monarch, which I think was the point.

    ----

    But this is all getting way off topic, and I'm not sure how all of this goes to show that Mace is not dead, other than to divert us from discussing the fact that he is, undisputibly, deceased.
  12. OBIWAN-JR Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 2002
    star 6
    >>>> But this is all getting way off topic, and I'm not sure how all of this goes to show that Mace is not dead, other than to divert us from discussing the fact that he is, undisputibly, deceased.

    Indeed.

    As a Dodo, dead he is.


    -JR :)
  13. Get_in_Gear Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2004
    star 5
    [image=http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/428/maceparrot7rm.jpg]
    "'E's passed on!
    This Windu is no more!
    He has ceased to be! '
    E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
    'E's a stiff!
    Bereft of life, 'e rests in peace!
    If you hadn't nailed 'im to the perch 'e'd be pushing up the daisies!
    'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory!
    'E's off the twig!
    'E's kicked the bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisibile!!
    THIS IS AN EX-WINDU!!"
  14. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    I already did that. :p


    Anyway, Prince Consort is not an actual royal person. Prince Charles' wife is a consort and not of royal lineage. Bail Organa was not of royal lineage, but became the Prince Consort when he married Queen Breha. Same as Camilla became a consort when she married Charles.
  15. Get_in_Gear Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2004
    star 5
    Hey, if we cut out repetition...
    ...we'd still be on page one of this thread.
  16. jedixesiria Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2005
    star 2
    If is is a live he is a wine-o talking on the side of the street.Talking about what is about to come.O and yes i have had a beer or two so what.....
  17. RebelScum77 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2003
    star 6
    [face_laugh]

    It's so sad... and so true.
  18. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    [image=http://vcard.homer-simpson.de/images/homer/pic21.png]

    Homer: "It's so funny cause it's true."
  19. JarJarPlagueis Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 24, 2005
    star 1
    To say that the "Organa family" is "high born" is to say they're part of the royal family. It could be that they're cousins. Even in England, the royal family is much more than just the queen and her descendants. Strike One!

    You offer reasons for why GL didn't include certain materials as though you actually knew. You don't. He might not include something because he thinks the movie is already too long and he needs to cut it, because the following scene is a pointer scene so there's already too much dialogue, or because the background of the Organas isn't important to ROTJ. Or it could have been any other reason, or no reason at all. Unless GL says something, then we really don't know, and h
  20. PADME4ANAKIN Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 9, 2006
    are u insane senator organa orders there minds wiped at the end of rots why would they remember tatooine or luke.
  21. Get_in_Gear Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2004
    star 5
    Fine - they are never described as such in the SW canon.
    I'm kind of missing what your actual point in all of this is now...

    Strike One...?
    I'm not sure what you are on about.
    I know how England's monarchy works (or fails to work), thank you very much - I was born there, was raised there, and have lived there all my life.
    Once again, I'll just point out that I have agreed all along that Bail is, naturally, part of the Royal family of Alderaan.
    My point was that he is not, never will be, and never has been, a monarch.
    His wife is the Queen.
    He is her Prince Consort.
    Their adopted daughter is a Princess.

    Great.
    You present your Bail Organa family tree as if it is in some way substantiated or relavent to this thread also.

    Well, in the Annotated Screenplays (1997) and on From Star Wars to Jedi: The Making of a Saga (1985), Lucas explains exactly that - how he decided, ultimately, to reduce all reference to the Skywalker's mother to a bare minimum - something vague - because he knew she would be a key figure in the prequels.
    I'll go with that, seeing as how we have no evidence of him "changing his mind" about how he once changed his mind, at this juncture.

    He's never claimed he ALWAYS intended them to be siblings.
    He's actually always claimed the idea of making Leia Luke's sister came to him during the production of ROTJ.
    (See the exact same sources mentioned above, in fact).
    Early drafts of what went on to become ANH did indeed centre around two protagonists who were siblings, although the story barely resembled the story we have come to know and love, if Lucas did want to claim his saga was "always" about these twins, he has a pretty good case, because the plot point was there as early as mid-70s.

    That's kind of irritating...

    I have.
    Mace is dead.
    The script says so.
    Lucas says so.
    Jackson says so.
    McDiarmid says so.
    Gillard says so.
    Christensen says so.
    McCallum says so.
    The novelisation says so.
    The official site's databank says so.
    Everyone but you says so.

    I don't even know what your point is - what point have you brought up?
    That people who do not appear as corpses in movies cannot be dead?
    Even if they are dead?
    It's a silly point.
    There's nothing to refute.
    The onus is on you to prove that Mace is alive, not that you misguidedly think he "may" be at some point in the future in another medium which is not accepted as canon.


    No - he's dead because he dies.
    He's dead because the authors have explicitly said so time and time again.

  22. LINQ0311 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2005
    star 2
    I still say Boba Fett should have owned him. Payback for Jango.
  23. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Lucas has changed a lot of things in the development of Star Wars. It's clear as day. The material that you site is taken from the third draft and was included in the novelization to fill space. Lucas and Kasdan did another re-write which is a fact. In this draft, the backstory was dropped and a new scene was added. In this scene, Vader attempts to find Luke through the Force after arriving on the Death Star II. Luke can feel him and is worried for a moment, then the droids walk in and the connection is broken. Luke then turns to the droids and tells them that he has a job for them. This scene was filmed and the score recorded, but was not included in the film. This scene is not featured in the novelization, but it was filmed and scored.

    When Lucas sat down to write the PT, he looked at his notes and script drafts. He then made changes based on new ideas that he had. Owen Lars is not related to Obi-wan Kenobi. Bail Organa is not born of royalty, but is the Prince Consort. Anakin was a boy when Obi-wan met him. Padme is not a royal monarch, but an elected official. Qui-gon Jinn was added. Utapau is now a planet filled with caves and sinkholes, rather than an arid desert planet.
  24. JarJarPlagueis Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 24, 2005
    star 1
    Where is it stated that the Organas aren't part of the royalty? If we dismiss one statement from the ROTJ novel that wasn't in the movie, then why not reject them all? Isn't it the rule that we accept everything that doesn't contradict the film? How else would Bail have met the queen unless the Organas were "high born?" Where does it say in the NT that Bail was just an average Joe who met the queen at a party?

    Also, are you saying the original draft of ROTJ mentioned Utapau? If so, why? Grievous died there, but nothing else of significance happened there, and he was just a plot device for ROTS. Basically, GL decided he wanted Anakin to kill Dooku, and he needed another villain who would be powerful enough to draw Ob-Wan away from Coruscant. Additionally, he showed that there was a precedent for turning an organic being into a cyborg. Finally, he needed some other important villain for Sidious to talk to now that Grievous was gone.


  25. JarJarPlagueis Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 24, 2005
    star 1
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.