So now the Matrix fans have their Phantom Menace?

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by sdj, May 18, 2003.

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  1. sdj Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2002
    star 4
    Reloaded is being called the Phantom Menace of the Matrix series. A film that is going to divide the fanbase forever. Now another series that was considered the pinnacle of a movie making era has been turned into a fan franchise that only certain people will read into more deeply and enjoy. Reloaded is definetly not a film for everyone as was the case with films like The Phantom Menace. The film serves the purpose it's creators wanted to serve but the series will never be the same.

    Anyone agree?
  2. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    They wish RELOADED was as good as THE PHANTOM MENACE.
  3. CeeJay Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 2000
    star 4
    No - Matrix Reloaded is no way as unsatisfying as TPM nor does it share any of its bad qualities. Unlike TPM poor initialization of the PT, the Matrix.R is a mid section film of a trilogy and it plays pretty well as one. The main character amongst others has grown in stature and abilty from his initial outing in the first film, the world outside the Matrix and the state of the humans involved are much more explored and the riddle of the function of the Matrix is further unravelled. All this done whilst still taking time to explore the various villians, their origins and their purpose far more in-depth than anything in TPM let alone the whole PT so far. Further more, the film manages to end on a proper cliffhanger much more in vein of the Republican serials SW is based on thus doing it's job as an episode a whole lot better than TPM and many other SW films apart from TESB which runs very much alongside similar lines of Matrix.R.

    I'll tell you something else before this thread gets locked (I'm guessing here) the Matrix.R will have me going back to see more in terms of visuals and drama than TPM ever did and it'sll get more play in my DVD aswell. It was not the second coming many expected it to be but it was damn good all the same and just as enjoyable as its predecessor while pulling a few suprises of its own! Stuff of dreams is what it is, not nightmares like TPM!

    Matrix Fans don't have their Phantom Menace mate, in all honesty, The Matrix just claimed one more SW fan!
  4. sdj Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2002
    star 4
    I'm not questioning the quality of either film in this thread. That's not the point of it. But I've been to websites, and spoken with other fans and it is VERY mixed. So to me it definetly echoes of another time in 99. Some fans of the original Matrix are looking at some of the revelations the same way midichlorians were viewed.

    I'm drawing a parallel which could create interesting discussion and help us understand the view of others in regards to TPM.

    It's not a lets bash the Matrix thread. I'm actually hoping it will help TPM retractors and defenders understand each other more...by examining a similar situation.
  5. spring_warm Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 12, 2003
    star 2
    Its comfortable to know that the starwars fan base isnt the only one to take a great film and rip it to shreads cause it didnt live up to the fan boy hype
  6. Django211 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 1999
    star 4
    I think the original film came at the right point in time. It was the first Hollywood film to successfully achieve Hong Kong type action & with actors that didn't know any martial arts. Combine that with a society growing in terms of technology & fx never seen before & the audience went nuts for it. The Wachowskis also put in philosophical themes but to many the film was simply an action film.

    With this new film the Wachowski's ask more questions & they want the audience to ponder them. I expect Revolutions will do more of the same. The film is no longer just an action film & viewers are not used to being asked to think in an action film. Up until now the genre was supposed to be sit back & enjoy. Now the Wachoskis are forcing the audience to participate in the film, & for some it isn't their cup of tea.
  7. -_-_-_-_-_- Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Apr 28, 2002
    star 6
    Reloaded was amazing, and it's a shame that some people don't give it the respect it deserves.


    I've said it before and I will say it again, years and years of anticipation can build up unrealistic expectations in the minds of many.
  8. Loco_for_Lucas Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2002
    star 5
    Reloaded is more of an Empire Strikes Back than a Phantom Menace. As Cee said so brilliantly, this is the middle chapter, the one that is recieved the hardest as it's usually the most different from the first film. There was the same sentiment over Empire back in the day, leaving off with a cliffhanger and such.

    Plus, it's kind of petty of Star Wars fans, trying to bring down an up-and-coming trilogy down to reassure faith in a cultural icon that is faltering.
  9. Quixotic-Sith Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2001
    star 6
    Unless this thread demonstrates more than a tangential relationship to TPM (i.e., by comparing more than the experience of the fanbase), I'll be locking it and suggesting it move to Community in 24 hours.

    EDIT: typo
  10. sdj Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2002
    star 4
    Well how I was comparing it to TPM didn't have to do with the plot or the cliffhanger ending or anything, but about how it's divided the fanbase and how it's changed the perception of the future of the series.

    Let's face it TPM totally changed what it was like to be a Star Wars fan. It revealed to us how different people perceived what the series was about for better or for worse. I think people will debate Reloaded for years to come just like they are with TPM. I've already heard people say "they better make it up to us with Revolutions" just like they say with AotC and now Episode 3.

    Do most of us agree that this is a very similar situation?
  11. Cometgreen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2002
    star 4
    "I'll tell you something else before this thread gets locked (I'm guessing here) the Matrix.R will have me going back to see more in terms of visuals and drama than TPM ever did and it'sll get more play in my DVD aswell. It was not the second coming many expected it to be but it was damn good all the same and just as enjoyable as its predecessor while pulling a few suprises of its own! Stuff of dreams is what it is, not nightmares like TPM!"

    The bolded part is exactly what TPM was. Not what all those fanboys expected, but it was damn good all the same.

    EDIT: "Plus, it's kind of petty of Star Wars fans, trying to bring down an up-and-coming trilogy down to reassure faith in a cultural icon that is faltering."

    Uhh, in case you didn't see on TFN's news page, Reloaded is being compared to AOTC and SW by many, many critics. That means that SW is a faltering cultural icon?

    Cometgreen
  12. CeeJay Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 2000
    star 4
    You want comparisons to TPM well here it goes.

    Did the MATRIX Revolutions portray a whole new style in direction from its predecessor, did it suddenly develop the need for a surge of comedy so outstanding it would seem to have spilled over from a neighbouring film-set? Did it contradict in anyway, shape or form plotlines or statements of fact laid down beforehand, if not did it then fail to expand on them or add much needed depth or information to the world introduced? Did its set-pieces overwhelm the narrative, did they dissapoint or at any time feel like they could have been more, much more than what they were? Were the villians of the film lacking in exposition, where lines clearly drawn on who where and why they are, let alone the good guys! (I'm still waiting for an explanaition on how the Sith came about and how Maul tracked the Queens ship let alone why there is only ever two from WATCHING the films, not from reading books!) Last but not least did the hero actually come off as such, a person trying to do good for the benefit of all and do I lend my self to invest intrest in his fate and the others he fights for or do I feel as I do when I watch the PT films that its their own fault and it serves them right?

    In contrast to the heroes of the OT I really have no feeling towards most of the barely fleshed out characters in both SW PT films because they are so badaly realized and emotionless! The people in the MATRIX look like they are fighting for survival, the slaves in TPM came off like regular Tattooine citizens going on about their business! The Jedi seemed bored and not to bothered about the Status Quo of the universe or the corruption broiling in the senate and how an entire planet can get blockaded, invaded and the very Queen of that world beg for help and be ignored is beyond common sense! Can I really lend myself to that plot? No, the Matrix continues to expand on a already broadly philosophical concept, far more complex and interwoven than anything I could expect from SW and really don't in all honesty. All I expect is a well scripted, plotted, performed and directed film which I can watch back to back with others in its series without a link in that chain failing the strenght of the entire collection.

    TPM is a weak link, so weak it comes of as plastic in a link of chains where the 4th and 5th links are gold, the 2nd is bronze and the last link merely straw! The Matrix Reloaded is as good as its predecessor and nothing more, I truly feel it expanded on the tale already begun, they moved on without going off the tracks and kept all if not most of the passengers onboard to the destinations end. The SW train however has firmly derailed and on course for a nasty crash. Fortunately a majority of its passengers bailed at the last stop once they realised the train was no longer going in the direction they it originaly intended!
  13. Gay-LenKenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2000
    star 5
    "no longer going in the direction they it originaly intended"


    I think that is a very revealing statement.

    TPM wasn't the direction some fans wanted to go. But it was the direction the creator wanted to go. They aren't obligated to stick around for the rest of the ride, but neither is he obligated to change it's course to please those fans.
  14. CeeJay Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 2000
    star 4
    That would be valid had the director actually had a driection to begin with and followed it instead of flying by the seat of his pants and making it up as he goes like an Indiana Jones adventure!

    I still wonder what Count Dooku would have gotten up to in TPM had GL actually thought about creating his character while fully plotting the stories; then I have to also wonder what Jar Jar would have gotten up to in AOTC if he was as well recieved as Han Solo?

    The part-time director had no intended direction other than to create digital spectacle as a showcase for his number one SFX company. The rest is history!
  15. AdamBertocci Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2002
    star 7
    The doofus talkbackers on AICN are whining about Matrix and calling it "Matrix: Episode One".

    [face_laugh]

    Rick McCallum doesn't love flame-baiting comments towards posters at other forums.


    Rick McCallum loves you!
  16. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    sdj brings up a great point. I agree 100%. I was underwhelmed by TPM and Reloaded.

    Your insight into fanbases being divided is telling as well. It is like when Star Trek: The Next Generation showed up, or as Classic Trekers call it: The "other" Generation. Geeks.

    I was a fan of the first Matrix, but it's clear the Waschowskis, like Lucas with parts of Jedi and TPM, started to beleive their own mythic hype.

    Reloaded had great parts,including a stupendous freeway chase that's right up their with some classic chases, but also some bare, dry, and boring spots.

    Did I mention some of the dialogue was just as bad as some in TPM?

    And what the heck was Cornel West doing? Well, I know what he was doing based on the neo-marxist philosophical underpinnings of the story, but C'MON! And Roy Jones Jr?! WTF?!

    sdj, your observation was spot-on. They even underused their twins just like Maul. Good grief.
  17. Darth Geist Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    "Did I mention some of the dialogue was just as bad as some in TPM?"

    I wouldn't say that; some of it was a little flat, but nothing was particularly cringe-worthy.
  18. stewart-18 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2003
    star 1
    Nothing before Wednesday.
  19. darthgetalife Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 21, 2002
    star 3
    Also , for an industry point of view they are really similar.
    The marketing strategy of both promoted unrealistic hype about these movies .
    Plus acting is wooden in both :p
    A funny thing to me is that i know more people that dislike Matrix than people that idolize it .
    But i have already posted my main issues with it in " wich trilogy will stand up the longer " kinda of thread .
  20. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    I wouldn't say that; some of it was a little flat, but nothing was particularly cringe-worthy.

    It was (I'm think of Morpheus' speech in particular). The problem is, I didn't care enough to cringe.
  21. Cometgreen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2002
    star 4
    "The SW train however has firmly derailed and on course for a nasty crash. Fortunately a majority of its passengers bailed at the last stop once they realised the train was no longer going in the direction they it originaly intended!"

    This is mainly your own fault. Lucas isn't out there to please you. He's telling a story. You can believe he had nothing planned out if that makes you feel better, just like I can believe he's more interested in actual filming than special effects.

    ...Wait, why am I even in this thread? I haven't seen the movie yet. I guess I'll come back next weekend, after I see Reloaded.

    Cometgreen
  22. sdj Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2002
    star 4
    And the Wachowskis aren't out there to please everyone else either. I somewhat admire what they did and they must've known that it was a risk. But maybe they prefer the Matrix as a cult thing. They seem like the type that would.
  23. Lurking_Around Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2002
    star 6
    I agree with sdj. 'Reloaded' is indeed the TPM for the Matrix movies. A pity really, considering I liked the first movie. In 'Reloaded', the only thing that I could enjoy was the chracters Link, Agent Smith (despite the really dumb scene with dumb FX) and the Oracle. Inded, the only reason why I would watch 'Revolutions' is to see what finally ahppens to Agent Smith, I really' don't give a damn about the heroes.
  24. BobaFrank Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 17, 2001
    star 5
    CeeJay,

    Back to bashing TPM again? THE ULTIMATE BASHER STRIKES BACK!
  25. stewart-18 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2003
    star 1
    "Lucas isn't out there to please you."

    Here we go with the "He only makes films for himself" line.

    Why would a director make movies NOT to please an audience Comet Green?

    Oh I forgot. Lucas does not have to care what his audience thinks or whether they are pleased or not. He knows there are enough people like you, and other lucasites that will fill his pockets either way, and he knows it.

    Bet he was'nt that way in the 70's when he was hungry, and had something to prove, and everything to lose. Which is why the OT is better.



    Like I said.. Why should he respect you, or his audience then? Since pleasing you is a waste of time as you say?
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