Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by sdj, May 18, 2003.
One person on another board mentioned a "Phantom Edit" for Reloaded.
"Think about those that didn't understand the whole clone army thing and do not like the film? Is that the reason they don't like the film?"
Certainly, it's often a reason. You don't see many children watching legal dramas or political discussions, largely because it's hard to enjoy what's over your head.
The agents may or may not have been in on the full extent of their role, but knowingly or not, they were following the Architect's design. Neo's "death" in the first film may well have been necessary to draw out his full power.
That's a possible (if contrived) solution. Another possibility is that the agents were "testing" Neo to see if he really was the anamoly, but this is no less contrived not to mention pathetically cliche.
See, I keep looking at the simplicity that is RELOADED and thinking to myself, "People say this is a deep movie, but I don't see it. Maybe there's something I'm missing." Then I have discussions like this and I think, "Nope, haven't missed a thing."
I thought you said you completely understood these movies Durwood, and you scoffed at the idea of people going 3 or 4 times to see Reloaded to try to "figure it out" when you got it all in one sitting.
Yeah, I do get it. But just because I "get it" doesn't mean I can't point out gaping holes in the plot.
"But just because I "get it" doesn't mean I can't point out gaping holes in the plot."
(i'm actually quite interested in your opinions about what makes a hole, considering that you seem to gloss over them in the PT... consistency please?)
Like why do the agents keep trying to kill him if he's necessary to fix the matrix. And this isn't some minor plot inconsistency like you'll find in any of the STAR WARS movies but the crux of the whole story.
Not to mention, which "gaping plot holes" in STAR WARS have I glossed over? Or are you just practicing the age old technique of generalizing? Which is cool. Just let me know what's up, k?
It's not the plot it's how it was executed. Which is a complaint that many have in regards to TPM.
But in TMR you were told the plot not shown the plot. No sense of discovery and it totally denied the audience of that moment when they put the pieces together. It's much more fun to put a puzzle together rather than have a complete puzzle just given to you.
Sure there is more to come and who knows Revolutions might be better than the first. But it won't change Reloaded from being a turkey. Just like Episode 3 won't change TPM.
Just like Episode 3 won't change TPM.
And in my opinion, that's a good thing!
"It's not the plot it's how it was executed."
The execution is important, to be sure, but equally important is the concept behind it.
There are good stories told poorly; think of a shack built on cement. There are poor stories told well, like mansions built on quicksand, and then there are those stories that benefit from both careful craftsmanship and strong delivery--and those ones will always take the cake. Not to mix metaphors.
Darth Sin, the voice of reason.
[blockquote]Like why do the agents keep trying to kill him if he's necessary to fix the matrix. And this isn't some minor plot inconsistency like you'll find in any of the STAR WARS movies but the crux of the whole story. [/blockquote]
Well, in the first, he "may" have been the Chosen One, but until he died, he was another hacker that was unplugged and struggling to survive. Agents are programmed to stop the harmful elements that threaten the Matrix, which is why they have been useless against Neo. Note, you said "trying" to kill him, except for Smith, they can "try" all they want, it won't happen. It's like what Cypher said at the end of the first movie, if he's the Chosen One, then there's supposed to be some miracle to keep him from dying. Divine intervention, he's not supposed to die until his time comes.
Durwood, you don't get the point of the agents?
I thought you "got" this movie?
It's all so "simple", yet, you missed this point?
The Agents are designed to police the Matrix, obviously, if Neo was to be believed to "The One", or the "saviour of humanity", it makes sense that the Agents would be after him, he is a threat to the Matrix as far as they are concerned.
Also, if "The One" is a "false savior", he can't be led to believe that, hence the Agents still pursue him. The Agents don't fully know his function, they can't know, they could give this information away if Neo "hacked" them or something, so they have to be programmed to fully believe in and execute their mission!
I can't wait until Wednesday, I'm sure you have the Matrix films already plotted out due to their "simplicity of philosophy" and can reveal their ending accurately here.
I guess back in '80 you had the mythology of SW, after seeing TESB, all figured out as well?
(I didn't, I was a child at that time! Now as an adult, I can see that Leia and Luke's relationship comes out of nowhere!!)
I can see that you don't want to come across as a "hypocrate" and say that you like The Matrix films (It doesn't matter if you like them better than SW or not! Liking a rival franchise is enough to discredit you in YOUR mind, it seems.), but really, get off the intellectual highhorse.
I'm sick of people saying that they "get" something and then they never explain how they "get it".
I understand the point of the Palpatine's manipulations to get elected and his manipulations to get the Clone Wars started (Read the opening to the SW noveliztion it's THERE! His goal was to take control of the Galaxy, his manipulations eliminated all obstacles to this goal!), still I'm not bold enough to say that I KNOW how Anakin finally becomes Vader (physically or psychologically), I have theories, but no definitive truth of how this comes about... I could pull Lucas quotes, but are these believable? He should be willing to mislead in order to protect his story.
I fully expect you to disagree with me, but do you know WHY you do?
If people want to compare a Lucas film with The Matrix, don't compare SW and the Matrix, compare The Matrix with THX-1138!
Those films have a lot in common!
Many of you (SW lovers and haters) need to quit acting as though you are an intellectual or storytelling "superior" when defending these films, it gets old really quick since many of you SAY that you are discussing opinions, not facts, but don't act like it...
I find it especially ironic when many posts made show that these people aren't as "superior" as they think they are!
Honestly, this **** happens everytime a new BLOCKBUSTER is released, this new film is argued against the SW films, fans say that they are sick of media/critic comparisions, but they feel the need to compare just as much on their own!!!
It's getting pretty damn old!
Is this going to continue until Ep3. comes out? Don't shut down the Boards after 2005, people need to defend/compare the SW films against the BLOCKBUSTER of 2160!!!
If you aren't a Matrix or a SW fan does it matter which film "sucked" the most? Does it matter to Matrix fans if a bunch of SW fans deride their film, does it matter to LOTR if SW fans deride their film?
Seems to me everyone is criticizing on their own turf!
If you guys want a good old time, why don't you invite people from the Matrix and LOTR boards to debate in the "Which trilogy will stand the test of time?" thread or invite The Matrix fans to argue here?
At least, it may be a better read then seeing the same people go at each others' throats!
Excellent point, Punisher. The Agents maintain order in the Matrix, change is not order, change is a threat to order, Neo fixing the Matrix is a threat to the way it stands, so thus, the Agents have to fulfill their purpose and try to eliminate him. They are doing their role.
This is hilarious. And ot think I actually some people a little bit seriously when they said they had the movie down.
And to get to the original post, where is the evidence that the hardcore fans are divided? The 2 main sites for the Matrix I am aware of are matrixfans.net and thelastfreecity.com On their message boards there is nothing but in depth discussion of every aspect of the film. I don't see the flame wars that exploded in this forum when TPM arrived. Nothing even close.
For general movie fans, I also looked on countingdown.com In the reloaded section, almost all of the reviews say it was amazing. The average rating is 3 1/2 stars. So what are you basing your ideas on?
As a Star Wars/Star Trek/Lord of the Rings/Matrix/ and a whole lot more...I have to ask...Why all the fighting?
Star Wars and the Matrix are both fantastic films with simple plots.
The Matrix:Reloaded (which I just saw) was a fun movie with a lot more in common with Reboot that any SW film. Zion is a shell program to the Matrix. Agent Smith is now a virus in both programs and Neo has rebooted the Matrix as Zion.
In the end, it is better to be Matrix's TPM than it is to be Matrix's AOTC.
Many fans developed a knee-jerk hatred for the Matrix for all of the accalim it received in 1999. This continues until today. Of course this week, now that the Matrix had the biggest opening night and weekend in cinematic history, the pain is extra intense.
Biggest weekend for an R rated film. The honor that you mention still belongs to Spiderman, I believe.
this signature blows!
GDS come on now. It's not just Star Wars fans that don't like this film. Surely you can see why many do not like it. Do you honestly think it's a film for everyone?
So if Box Office means a good movie then the contestants on American Idol really do deserve to be hugely famous. MAR-KET-ING
Good point. Why would a post bashing 'Reloaded' be lame while a post bashing TPM is not? Let's have some equality and freedom to express opinions here. Then again, I am speaking as someone who bashes both TPM and 'Reloaded', so it is rather amusing to see TPM bashers suddenly defending 'Reloaded', just like the TPM defenders!
It's one thing to post your gripes about a film Lurking and another to basically start a thread saying "see, now you know how it feels" to Matrix fans on a STAR WARS site. I was expecting this after Matrix fans built the first film up too much and now someone is rubbing it in that it wasn't a success. I wouldn't care if sdj went to communties and started a "Reloaded sucks" thread but this is rather baiting IMHO.
Let's look at rottentomatoes:
Granted it seems reloaded is not as well received but it is still a B+ according to RT. TPM and AOTC are 4% away from being rotten. They scrape through with a C. That isn't so bad because most films get rotten ratings so they are all fresh but it isn't like Reloaded is split down the middle. MOST of the critics on this site (125) like the film compared to not liking it (42). In fact rt sums it up well "A worthy sequel even if it is a little heady and less satifying than the first".
As for the critisisms, people complain it is either too simplistic or too complex. Either way, was anyone expecting a simple A to B story or a complex film full of twists? I think it sits in the middle and a lot of the talk about the films seems to be about what happens at the end. Durwood says he thinks it is simplistic. We'll see in a few days how right he is. Those saying it was too confusing or complex have a reason to see it again to iron out the confusion and maybe they'll like it more.
In the end, I'm not a big Matrix fan anyway but I know the split that occurred over TPM was huge but in this case there is dissapointment and complaints (like any film) but the situation ain't as dire as sdj likes to think.
No, Reloaded has the biggest opening weekend ever.
SDJ-- I am not saying that Reloaded was universally loved. It isn't. But I have been on these forums for a long time and I have heard people for years hate on the Matrix because it took a lot of TPM's thunder. It's actually much better now than it used to be.
Well, it is both side's fault. Matrix fans called the Matrix the new Star Wars and that Lucas should learn from the Wachowski Brothers. TPM fans retorted by bashing the Matrix as is evident by this thread being in this forum!
As for why the agents are trying to kill Neo...they don't know any better! They are not the "Matrix" but have a program to protect it. I can't go into any more detail but they are probably kept in the dark about the true reality as evident from Smith's speech in Reloaded.
Hawk you should actually read those reviews for TMR I'm not sure half of the positive ones should be considered positive. I guess tomatoes go by the overall score the reviewer gave the film which was usually a 3 out of 5 or 6 out of 10. But even the good reviews (as I've shown earlier in this thread) were pretty scathing.
I went to the boards that GDS mentioned and one thing about those boards is that they are no where near as populate as the Star Wars boards I've been to. One site has a poll and only 80 people have voted on it. You get thousands on here. Plus not all the votes were so good.
Even postive reviews have their negative points but the overall mark was 75% fresh which is an excellent mark on a site where most films don't get past 60%. How do explain this? Were you around after TPM was released on the net? There was chaos and even fans of TPM will tell you this. Your comparison is way off if you ask me and is evident by the excellent response from the critics on rt. If it drops to the low 60s then you might have a point but it is the clearest indicator I have seen as to film quailty.
*squeezes in before the locking of this thread*
Its comfortable to know that the starwars fan base isnt the only one to take a great film and rip it to shreads cause it didnt live up to the fan boy hype
Every series of note has its "contravesal" episode.
I've said it before and I will say it again, years and years of anticipation can build up unrealistic expectations in the minds of many.
And what about those without high expectations?
Did it contradict in anyway, shape or form plotlines or statements of fact laid down beforehand
How about we look at what appears to be the most "popular" thread on one of the sites that GDS listed.
[link=http://forums.matrixfans.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6590] Disappointed [/link]
Ha Ha If you think that even comes close to the stuff that was on these boards even a year after TPM's release then you are way off. That is critisism. TPM caused a gulf which initiated the terms bashers and gushers while the basher's sanctuary is strong to this day. Wait a couple of months and we'll see for sure...
Let's see.. a really strong movie, bashed by people who refuse to be open-minded about it, with several awesome action scenes and a great villian...yep, I guess Matrix fans do have their own version of TPM after all.