So now the Matrix fans have their Phantom Menace?

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by sdj, May 18, 2003.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    As for why the agents are trying to kill Neo...they don't know any better!

    All right, so now we have three or four theories to explain away this inconsistency. So they're testing him. No, they're forcing the prophecy to come true. Or are they simply low level programs just doing their job? Or maybe they don't know any better!

    Yeah, it all makes perfect sense now. ?[face_plain]

    Are you guys still going to claim this isn't a plot hole or at the very least a plot inconsistency? "Surely you can do better!" [face_laugh]
  2. BobaFrank Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 17, 2001
    star 5
    So now the Matrix fans have their Phantom Menace.

    Well, the Matrix can only benefit from that. If its as good as TPM then the Matrix trilogy is definitely going in a positive direction.

    Don't get me wrong, I like the Matrix alot. I haven't seen the sequel yet but if its being compared to TPM then I'M VERY VERY VERY EXCITED!!! [face_laugh] :D [face_laugh]
  3. Green_Destiny_Sword Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 20, 2001
    star 4
    The Agents are not even close to being a plot hole.

    If that is your best flaw, you're reaching.


    [BTW, still waiting for your advanced philosphical ideas in the other thread. ;))
  4. Glorian-Eversea Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 26, 2002
    star 2
    Hawk and GDS are right about the Agents. I am shocked at the people who believe they get it but clearly do not.

    Did somebody miss the "another system of control" speech. The revolution (or appearance of one) IS PAART OF THE SYSTEM!

    Glorian
  5. Loco_for_Lucas Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2002
    star 5
    True Green, if something so small is being considered a flaw, then it really is out of desperation. Funny how gushers {non-specific comment) will try to find the littlest thing about the Matrix yet continue to look away when faced with the huge gaping holes in the PT. :p

    Agents trying to kill Neo, the bad guys trying to kill the good guy; oh God, the world is coming apart. But Qui-gon being introduced needlessly and taking the role of Obi-wan Kenobi, making him an even smaller character in the long run for no explicable reason, that's of no concern or "Let GL try and tell his story." It's hilarious. [face_laugh]
  6. sdj Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2002
    star 4
    If you watched it and didn't think it was boring as all hell then you must be such a huge fan of the Matrix that you have your blinders on.
  7. Loco_for_Lucas Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2002
    star 5
    That's funny, because I went into that movie a huge Matrix basher and I came out respecting it. Heh. :p
  8. hawk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 3, 2000
    star 5
    All right, so now we have three or four theories to explain away this inconsistency. So they're testing him. No, they're forcing the prophecy to come true. Or are they simply low level programs just doing their job? Or maybe they don't know any better!

    Yeah, it all makes perfect sense now.

    Are you guys still going to claim this isn't a plot hole or at the very least a plot inconsistency? "Surely you can do better!"


    They are not testing him. They are indirectly forcing the prophecy to come through but it is out of their hands as they are programs and as such they are "programmed" to try to kill Neo hence, they don't know any better. The point is that Neo and the Agents are part of someone's bigger plan. They each have separate goals that they think is the truth but they are unaware of what the true goal actually is. This is why Smith acts the way he does in Reloaded.

    I can't go into anymore detail at this point as we are not allowed but needless to say you do not understand Reloaded as well as you think Durwood. Why don't you come to communities and we can discuss it with Spoilers there.
  9. Punisher Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 20, 1998
    star 4
    In regards to the topic, I'm not really a Matrix fan.
    I own the soundtracks and DVD, I'm not collecting any thing Matrix related, I don't frequent Matrix fan sites, I don't study them for their external influences, I haven't seem the films 10 or more times! I'm NOT a Matrix fan like I'm a SW fan.

    I hated the first Matrix film initially, mostly due to the SW competition, but while I don't think Reloaded is as good as TESB, I do feel that by it's nature and themes, it is better than AOTC.. in fact, I'm beginning to appreciate The Matrix more after seeing Reloaded.
    There are still revelations to be made and twists to occur that haven't been spoiled by having been part of an out of order saga or a saga that has been "expanded" and speculated to death.

    So while many think The Matrix is too complex or simple, I'm finding them more entertaining than some of the PT so far. I'm just discovering their "depth".
    I don't think Reloaded is a TPM of the Matrix films, if you want to argue them against SW films, it's closer to ROTJ (at the worst), not the PT.

    Interestingly enough, I'm realizing that the few external Matrix influences (religious, mythological, philosphical, sociological) I've discovered are tying into many external SW influences I've found.
    So as SW is a vehicle for jumping into new things, it seems tha Matrix holds the same potential. I like that. :D
    It's funny that Joesph Campbell's references to Gnostic texts in The Power of Myth are explored in The Matrix films.

    ---------------------------------------------

    The agents are a plot hole?! [face_laugh]
    Maybe, but they are far easier to rationalize than Shmi being left by Padme as a slave on Tatooine, remember that one? ;)


    Let's see, it's ironic how the Agents' actions (In The Matrix) bring about "fulfilling" the Prophecy?
    Watch the movies again, Durwood. The simple points (purpose & control) got passed you... it seems.
    No, that can't be the case, it's too simple... :)

    Without getting into Reloaded spoilers, it seems that in doing their job in protecting The Matrix, they also aid the Prophecy... (How are the Agents any different than the Sith? Oh wait, we don't really KNOW what the SW prophecy is!!) 8-}
    Obviously, the humans should find something is wrong if they are NOT attacked by Agents after creating such chaos in the Matrix.

    I don't get why everyone thinks the Agents should back off?
    If I was in that situation I would wonder why these guys that are so determined to kill me (many times before!) didn't show up when they have a perfect place to attack!
    Nothing to explain this is necessarily "spoiler" related. It's common sense.
    It's like sending TIE Fighters after the Falcon as a way to make it's passengers feel they are safe and not being tracked... these agressive actions sell the "illusion"!

    ---------------------------------------------

    BTW, I'm serious, why doesn't someone post links to these Matrix/LOTR themed discussions HERE in a LOTR/Matrix board...
    Or join and start one on the respective discussion boards & provide the link here? :)

    Let people that have "chosen sides" argue this instead of SW fans that may not be the biggest LOTR/Matrix fans and may not fully grasp the reasons for being a fan of the "competition"?!
    I'm sure the more philosophically minded Matrix fans may have arguments that may tear any SW fan's protests to shreds.. I'm sure the SW fans can give a LOTR "defender" quite a thrashing. ;)

    Are you afraid?

    Seems to me, many want to fight with the SW fans that have turned their back on the PT, but the real issue is how people can like something OTHER than Star Wars?

    Which is it?

    We have seen the Basher/Gusher debates end in stalemate... they ALWAYS will.
    Let's see what happens when the fans that want to "fight it out" stand up for their respective francises?

    If you want to see which is the "best", they argue your case with those that are equally passionate about their object of fan appreciation.

    ----------------------
  10. hawk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 3, 2000
    star 5
    Excellent post Punisher. I too was never a big Matrix fan and I wasn't excited about seeing Reloaded but interested. Reloaded had flaws but it did manage to blow people's expectations. I wish I could go into more detail but there are a few areas which totally alter our perception of the first Matrix if they pay off in Revolutions. That is why I encourage those who have seen the film to discuss these events in Community instead of writing around the points here.
  11. Punisher Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 20, 1998
    star 4
    Yes, perhaps it is best to go there and discuss the film, what it's themes are and where the story may go, then spending time here arguing with people about a film series that these people admit they didn't really care about or enjoy at all from the beginning.

    Congratulations! It seems some SW fans are now Matrix "bashers"! :D
    The only difference I see is between PT and Matrix "bashers" is that they don't bash in a Matrix board, they do it from the "comfort" of a SW board! [face_laugh]

    So sdj or Durwood, are you going to start a Reloaded Bashers' Sanctuary on a Matrix fan board? ;)
  12. Jedi_Master201 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 5, 2001
    star 5
    That would be illogical. Why go to a fan site of a movie you don't enjoy just to tear the movie down?


    I think both of them have better things to do with their life.
  13. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    "That's a possible (if contrived) solution. Another possibility is that the agents were "testing" Neo to see if he really was the anamoly, but this is no less contrived not to mention pathetically cliche."

    The agents are in on it, but even if they were, the one will succeed, thus making him 'the one' if he fails then by definition he is not the one. But the agents are in on it, they like the zion rebels are just another cog in the machine when.

    But seriously there are way bigger plot holes in the matrix.

    For example, I'm in the ladies room after the movie and my friend points out to me: "why not just lobotimize all the humans before inserting them in the matrix? Why not use cows instead of humans as your living batteries?"

    If anyone non-free matrix human is potentially a human, why did they have to put that thing in Neo's stomach? Why not just turn into Neo when he met morpheus and shoot morpheus in the head?
  14. Cometgreen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2002
    star 4
    "Funny how gushers {non-specific comment) will try to find the littlest thing about the Matrix yet continue to look away when faced with the huge gaping holes in the PT."

    To try to keep this thread on topic, can someone PM me these "huge" plot holes of the PT? I'm not looking into debating them, I'd just like to know what they are. I've never seen many except for ones that go against what we initially expected. The only one I've seen so far is the droids, but we still have EpIII to solve this hole (erasing C3PO's memory).

    Sorry, back on topic!

    Cometgreen
  15. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    strictly speaking, if it goes against what we all expected then there is something wrong with that, because even though its not technically inconsistent its dramatically sloppy.
  16. AdamBertocci Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2002
    star 7
    Whoa. I never know that Rebel Scumb was female until that 'ladies room' post.

    As for cows for the Matrix 'batteries':
    Behold.


    Rick McCallum loves you!
  17. Cometgreen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2002
    star 4
    LOL. They have a good point...

    And Scumb: I guess it matters on your own expectations/interpretations. I'm just saying that, in the grand of things, there don't seem to be many plot holes. But I guess we need to wait for EpIII. Maybe GL will resolve them, show the relevence of certain things, or just open up a whole can of inconsistencies. The fate of 2 hours of our time is in his hands...

    Cometgreen
  18. Punisher Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 20, 1998
    star 4
    Why stay on a SW site and tear down a movie, like The Matrix Reloaded that has nothing to do with Star Wars?

    Talk about going OFF TOPIC! [face_laugh]

    I'm sure whatever issues that these people have with these films can be explained better by Matrix fans than by SW fans that aren't as well versed with The Matrix or the inspiration behind it!
    I thought people came here to "argue" (sorry, discuss topics) about SW and in that process, there is a better understanding why the movies work for some and not others.

    If I didn't like TPM 'cause I didn't get the point of the T.F. blockade of Naboo, perhaps seeing it explained and discussed here, I'll have a better understanding of the film. Then I'll get past a "flaw" I had with it.

    If you are going to ***** about Reloaded, do it on a Matrix board, if you are going to ***** about SW do it here. People are going to *****, at least do it on the right boards!
    The only thing I see is that the "Reloaded bashers" don't want to be challenged by devoted Matrix fans. At least the "SW PT Bashers" take it to the right fanbase and the right boards! ;D

    I can see a comparision of the films themes (One vs One) or comparing them as films (editing, acting, directing, etc.), but we aren't even partaking in that, all people are doing is attempting to tear one down in order to elevate the other.
    I thought people disliked the media/critics when they do that, yet it's okay to do that here?

    I never want to see some people take a "superior attitude" when dealing with SW bashers, 'cause they aren't any better!
    It's topics like this that makes them seem just as petty.
    At least "SW PT bashers" can complain and may make "fools" of themselves in front of other SW fans, and not hide their dissatisfaction on a LOTR or Matrix board.

    Trust me, if I have a Matrix issue, I'm not going to discuss it on a TPM board!
    I'll seek a Matrix discussion board or go to that JC Community thread.

    EDIT: Let me say that I didn't think The Matrix Reloaded was perfect, but I'm not here *****ing about it, am I?
    I have more of an issue with the blatant hypocrisy of some JC members.
  19. Loco_for_Lucas Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2002
    star 5
    To try to keep this thread on topic, can someone PM me these "huge" plot holes of the PT? I'm not looking into debating them, I'd just like to know what they are. I've never seen many except for ones that go against what we initially expected. The only one I've seen so far is the droids, but we still have EpIII to solve this hole (erasing C3PO's memory).


    One among many: But Qui-gon being introduced needlessly and taking the role of Obi-wan Kenobi, making him an even smaller character in the long run for no explicable reason...

    And since it pretty much affects the perception of the entire Saga, how can one NOT see such a huge gaping error?
  20. sdj Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2002
    star 4
    Well one thing that always seemed strange is why use humans at all as batteries. I mean they can create a super complicated neural simulating environment that houses millions of people but they can't find an alternate energy source? And even if they cannot can't they find humans that would voluntarily give them energy in return for lives fo bliss that they can live out at all times? Why do they need so much of this bioenergy and surely animals and other beings can create it as well.

    Which brings me to think what do machines do outside of the Matrix? What requires so much energy? I guess upkeeping the Matrix is alot of work.

    It really is besides the point.
  21. Punisher Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 20, 1998
    star 4
    Since this isn't a Matrix board, who cares?
    TMR doesn't bring up the issue of humans as batteries, why weren't you complaining about that in 1999?


    If you had an issue with this premise, why did you see Reloaded?

    Jeez, why not ask what the hell was the Nubian's hyperdrive leaking that prevented it from going to lightspeed?
    At least it's a question relevant to TPM! ;)

  22. Cometgreen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2002
    star 4
    "I'm sure whatever issues that these people have with these films can be explained better by Matrix fans than by SW fans that aren't as well versed with The Matrix or the inspiration behind it!"

    I think we're at least allowed to be SW fans and Matrix fans at the same time. A lot of people here are also big LOTR fans. A little discussion about other movies can keep us sane, for a little while...

    Cometgreen
  23. sdj Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2002
    star 4
    Want to talk about a crap film how about the original Punisher movie with Dolph Lundgren, but I guess they are remaking it.

  24. Cometgreen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2002
    star 4
    "Well one thing that always seemed strange is why use humans at all as batteries. I mean they can create a super complicated neural simulating environment that houses millions of people but they can't find an alternate energy source? And even if they cannot can't they find humans that would voluntarily give them energy in return for lives fo bliss that they can live out at all times? Why do they need so much of this bioenergy and surely animals and other beings can create it as well."

    This is a really good point, as thermal energy is now pretty much being harnassed by humans. Obviously, since Zion is near the core where it's nice and hot, there still must be a whole lot of magma down there. Why can't the robots just feed off of the earth's natural energy? Why don't they use their current supplies to clean up the atmosphere to get their sunlight back? Why not launch themselves into space and get solar energy above the planet?

    Of course, these questions plague every movie. Just forget about it and enjoy.

    Cometgreen
  25. Punisher Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 20, 1998
    star 4
    Not necessarily a remake, but another film with the same character... the storylines are different, different cast/crew, studio, etc.
    Don't worry, I doubt that The Punisher will be worthy of comparing to the PT! ;)

    Still, I don't bring The Punisher film(s) up here unless someone else brings it up first.
    If you want to get into Punisher movie "bashing", educate yourself at the link in my signature and join the SHH boards, there is already a backlash against the new Punisher film by the comic fans that are there, so you guys can take your experiences from here and apply them there.

    ---------------------------------------------

    My point being that if someone has a real issue with the Matrix sequels, why not give the Matrix fans a chance to defend "their" films?
    You SW people would probably get pretty mad if someone was talking trash about the PT on an X-Men board, for example.
    I think it's the same thing, if you feel that you understand the Matrix films enough to "bash", then you ought to be willing to say so in front of the Matrix fanbase.

    In other words, it's real easy for you guys to talk **** about another franchise when you don't have to worry about it being vigorously defended by it's fanbase.

    I like the Matrix films, but I'm not going to defend them as much as a hardcore Matrix fan can.
    As for the question of human batteries, I'd assume that the only life on Earth left was humans after the war began, all the animals were wiped out, that's why the humans were fed the dead humans, that's why the surviving humans ate "snot".* ;)

    *I don't know, I'm not a Matrix "EU" expert!
    I'm just going by info presented in the films... remember when information about the story was in the movies and not the tie-ins?** ;)

    **Yeah, I realize the Matrix has a videogame and Animatrix DVD, still that's nothing compared to the SW EU!!!

    Again, why didn't you question this in 1999 on a Matrix fan board? ;)
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.