So now the Matrix fans have their Phantom Menace?

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by sdj, May 18, 2003.

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  1. TadjiStation Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2001
    star 4
    I found that essay a fascinating read, and only further proof that the Wachowskis have a very good idea of what they're doing.

    Now, apply that same style and length of essay to the PT. As the writer of that essay makes comments about the PT (particularly Midichlorians), I'd be most interested to see what sort of shake down they would give Lucas and company...
  2. Darth_Insidious Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2002
    star 4
    Clonetrooper, the center of debate is not "Why did AOTC drop-off from TPM?". It never was. This has always been about it being common sense that AOTC would make less than TPM, if only for the reason that sequels generally aren't a bigger success than the film they follow.

    You have shown absolutely no proof whatsoever that sequels have always had an equal chance of beating their predecessor as they have of finising below it. You listed 11 sequels that beat their originals; I listed more than three times that amount that didn't.
  3. Son_Of_Kurtzman Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 16, 2002
    star 2
    So there's a three to one chance that a sequel will do worse than the predecessor? Those are not bad odds. It certainly doesn't show that it is a complete given that a sequel will do worse. One in three will do better, as far as the evidence the two of you have shown.
  4. Son_Of_Kurtzman Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 16, 2002
    star 2
    ****I found that essay a fascinating read, and only further proof that the Wachowskis have a very good idea of what they're doing.****

    Or maybe that fans can make them seem like they knew what they were doing... directors love to take credit for accidents... Steven Spielberg is comedic about this.
  5. Cometgreen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2002
    star 4
    "Or maybe that fans can make them seem like they knew what they were doing... directors love to take credit for accidents... Steven Spielberg is comedic about this."

    Exactly. I can make George Lucas look like a genius if need be. Just because you can find a lot in a film does not mean that the filmmaker(s) actually intended it to be like that. Everyone has their own interpretations of stories and events.

    That said, I do think that Smith will turn out to be the hero in Revolutions. I don't think he was programmed to be the hero by the humans outside the Matrix, but I do think he'll accidentally end up being the hero.

    Hell, every freedom fighter we've seen has killed more humans than Smith. That should be an indication of something.

    "Clonetrooper, the center of debate is not "Why did AOTC drop-off from TPM?". It never was. This has always been about it being common sense that AOTC would make less than TPM, if only for the reason that sequels generally aren't a bigger success than the film they follow."

    But again, GL has given a reason as to why he said AOTC would make less than TPM. It was NOT just common sense, it was because he knew some people would be drawn away from the love story of AOTC.

    And I recall the center of debate being whether or not the Matrix fans have their "disappointing sequel" with Reloaded.

    Cometgreen
  6. Darth_Insidious Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2002
    star 4
    And the same conclusion that George arrived at could be reasonably predicted by anyone else using box office common sense, with no knowledge whatsoever of the content of any of the films.
  7. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    "Now what I don't understand is why you folks spend so much time obsessing over films you don't like (or at the very least obsessing over the parts you don't like)."

    What about obsessing over people who complain about the PT? You are equally guilty of such "obsession". How many minds have you changed in your efforts?

    As Obi-wan said, "who's more foolish?" :p

    "So there's a three to one chance that a sequel will do worse than the predecessor? Those are not bad odds."

    From the examples given, perhaps. I'm sure the odds can be constantly changed by the addition or subtraction of various films, so this is hardly scientific.

    "It certainly doesn't show that it is a complete given that a sequel will do worse."

    Those statistics don't, but direct statements from the creator do.

    "it was because he knew some people would be drawn away from the love story of AOTC."

    Got a quote on that?
  8. TadjiStation Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2001
    star 4
    Exactly. I can make George Lucas look like a genius if need be. Just because you can find a lot in a film does not mean that the filmmaker(s) actually intended it to be like that. Everyone has their own interpretations of stories and events.

    Agreed, CometGreen. However, the point I'm making is that there are plenty of specific references made in that essay that point directly to things happening directly on the screen, if even for a moment. Everything that's pointed out was put there (in the film) for a reason, and is definitely not a happy accident.

    In other words, while the essay in that post is indeed long, it's comprised of a depth of explanation that can easily be applied to, and taken from, the film itself.

    Again, I'd be most interested in what the writer of that essay would have to say about the PT, because I find their style of writing quite intelligent and well thought out.

    Best,

    Tadji
  9. Clonetrooper1000 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 24, 2003
    star 3
    Darth_Insidious: "This has always been about it being common sense that AOTC would make less than TPM, if only for the reason that sequels generally aren't a bigger success than the film they follow."

    2 points here:

    1 - The debate is not "about it being common sense". That is your opinion. My opinion is that it was mainly the tone and direction that George took. In order to try and evaluate each opinion, we have to see what the reasons are for the drop-off. Why? Because only in knowing the reasons, can we judge it as being common sense or not.

    2 - In the four years since the TPM was released, more major sequels have made more money than their predecessor. So where do you get your reasoning from?

    Darth_Insidious: "You listed 11 sequels that beat their originals; I listed more than three times that amount that didn't."

    And you continuously accuse Lucas and Darabont of lying?! ;)

    Your list included lies (Hannibal and Aliens: FACT) and cop-outs (cash-in crap like MK2 and JB2).

    Here is a list of some sequels that have done better than the original.

    From Russia With Love
    Magnum Force
    Karate Kid Part 2
    The Road Warrior
    Ernest Saves Christmas
    Aliens
    Die Hard II: Die Harder
    The Naked Gun 2 1/2
    Ace Ventura: When Nature Calls
    Lethal Weapon 2
    Evil Dead 2
    Highlander II
    Rambo First Blood Part II
    Another 48 hours
    These were released within the time span of the two prequel releases
    Mission Impossible 2
    Toy Story 2
    Blade II
    The Mummy Returns
    Hannibal (Manhunter not included as part of the 'series')
    Austin Powers 2
    American Pie 2
    Rush Hour 2
    Shanghai Knights
    The Two Towers
    The Matrix Reloaded
    X2

    I think we could easily say that there are more big-budget 1st sequels have made more money to the originals than those that have made less.

    Now, Darth Insidious, these are some of the more major sequels that made more money than the original. I can think of several more, but these ones I have confirmed with on-line sources.
    8-}

    MeBeJedi: "Got a quote on that?"

    In the following quote George Lucas expresses his concerns of the love-story aspect and how it will alienate kids that flocked to see TPM: "By the nature of it being a love story, it's less of a kids' movie because they don't like to sit through all that yucky stuff. But it's still aimed at the same age level, so it's going to be a real challenge for me to get through that part."

    I know there are loads more quotes around if you know where to find them. I'll try and find a couple.
  10. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    "In the following quote George Lucas expresses his concerns of the love-story aspect and how it will alienate kids that flocked to see TPM: "By the nature of it being a love story, it's less of a kids' movie because they don't like to sit through all that yucky stuff. But it's still aimed at the same age level, so it's going to be a real challenge for me to get through that part."

    Yet Titanic's records have yet to be broken. Cameron, himself, even laughingly refers to it as a 3-hour "chick flick".

    "I know there are loads more quotes around if you know where to find them. I'll try and find a couple."

    Somehow, you are under the impression that I can't find quotes? ?[face_plain]

    The issue isn't me finding them - it's expecting others to back up their assertions. I'm not going to do their work for them. Surely, you don't have an issue with this?
  11. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    Yet Titanic's records have yet to be broken. Cameron, himself, even laughingly refers to it as a 3-hour "chick flick".

    Yes, it is a "chick flick" (even though I'm rather fond of it myself.) Big difference between a chick flick with a hunky lead and a film with a love-story aimed at kids.
  12. Darth_Insidious Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2002
    star 4
    My claim was that most sequels weren't as successful as the originals going back years ago, if you want to get into time spans here. That's where I get my reasoning from.

    My list includes lies? No, your list includes lies. Hannibal made $350 million in 2001, while The Silence of the Lambs made $273 million ten years earlier. The latter sold more tickets, even if not by much. Aliens made $156 million, Alien made $134 seven years earlier. The latter sold more tickets by a wide margin.

    Now, if you'd like to set a cut-off year for comparison, since you're bringing up the 'years since TPM was released' thing, then just say so and we'll work one out.
  13. AdamBertocci Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2002
    star 7
    We were discussing Spider-Man a while back. I can't believe I forgot to mention that there's a very TPM-esque moment in it.

    Aunt May tells Peter that when he was little and saw Mary Jane for the first time, he got all excited and said "Aunt May, is that an angel?"



    Rick McCallum loves you!
  14. Darth_Insidious Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2002
    star 4
    Coincidentally, that line sucked in Spider-Man too :p
  15. Darth_Jeremy Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2002
    star 2
    I can't believe some of you bashers! George is nice enough to give you three extra SW movies, and this is how you repay him!? Bragging about how you would do them better!?

    For shame.
  16. Clonetrooper1000 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 24, 2003
    star 3
    Even including inflation, Hannibal still makes more money than SOTL. That is what we are talking about. Box-office success. How much will it make.

    The same goes for Aliens. It made more domestically, and more worldwide.

    Darth_Insidious: "Now, if you'd like to set a cut-off year for comparison, since you're bringing up the 'years since TPM was released' thing, then just say so and we'll work one out."

    I would definetely agree that most sequels have made less than the original. That is certain. Most sequels in the 80's were put into production to cash in on the name. It was a terrible era. Think about those horror franchises or Police Academy, they just would not stop. (And likewise, the law of diminishing sequels was brought into effect in the fullest sense).

    I would say that in dealing with a film like AOTC, we have to have some basis for comparison. Lucas would not just go by sequels in general if he was to make a prediction. He would look at larger budget contemporary American sequels that fall into action/sci-fi/adventure. Let's take all the sequels to originals since 1990 that had a budget of over say $50 million.

    You would have to say that Lucas would not just be using common sense to arrive at his prediction that AOTC and E3 will make less than would normally be expected of a Star Wars film.
  17. Green_Destiny_Sword Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 20, 2001
    star 4
    LOL @ Darth Jeremy-- how dare we criticize the might GL for making sub-par films?!?

    Relax...and enjoy your freedom of speech.

    Saw Reloaded on IMAX agaion this week. I strongly encourage anyone who has an IMAX int he area to check it out. Just amazing. And the action is just incredible. Definitely better than TM1 and the action of the PT.
  18. rgard32 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2003
    star 1
    i would have loved to have taken the SWORD fighting scene style in DIE ANOTHER DAY and put that in TPM or even AOTC....that woulda rocked...





    a
  19. ST-TPM-ASF-TNE Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2001
    star 6
    Meh, I think think the action of AOTC is better than that of Reloaded. One of the problems with the action of Reloaded is that the Wachowski Brothers didn't know when to stop. Take the Burley Brawl for example. Great action piece, but it went on for 5 minutes. I kept looking at my watch and saying to myself, "when is this going to end?"

    There's a difference between an exciting long action sequence and a long action sequence that is nothing but Neo hitting Agent Smiths with a pole over and over and over again.

    I think TMR is the second or third best action movie I've ever seen, with AOTC at the very top. I'll take the Coruscant Chase, Arena Battle, Clone War, and lightsaber duels over the action in TMR, but that's just me. And I'm not making that judgement as a fan of the PT (because I love the Matrix). I'm making this judgement as a fan of action movies, and I think the action of AOTC is far superior to that of TMR.
  20. TadjiStation Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2001
    star 4
    ST,

    I'm curious as to your take on the POD race and DOTF from TPM. Personally, I found these more exciting that just about anything in AOTC (although I thought the Geonosian Arena was pretty cool).

    As for TMR, I agree with you on the burly brawl, even though I still love the sequence, it could have been cut down a bit. That said, I thought the freeway sequence was probably the best action sequence I've ever seen, period (The second being ANY sequence from the first DIE HARD film - still my favorite action movie!)

    Best,

    Tadji
  21. winter_chili Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2002
    star 5
    I dont think the burly brawl went on too long, i cant follow that thinking, how can there be too much awesome?

    I cant compare AOTC and TMR, if i had too pick between the highway chase and the arena battle id probably go insane
  22. ST-TPM-ASF-TNE Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2001
    star 6
    I'm curious as to your take on the POD race and DOTF from TPM. Personally, I found these more exciting that just about anything in AOTC (although I thought the Geonosian Arena was pretty cool).

    I think DOTF is the best action sequence I've ever seen, but as a whole, I think AOTC is the best action movie. The Pod Race is awesome, but I think if suffers from "too long" sydrome. It was still awesome though, just like the Burley Brawl, but like I said, a bit too long :D

    I dont think the burly brawl went on too long, i cant follow that thinking, how can there be too much awesome?

    The reason I think the Burley Brawl was too long is because it was basically the same thing happening over and over again. The same kicks, the same agents flying out of frame, Neo hitting Agent, after Agent, after Agent, after Agent with that metal pole. After a while it just got too repitive. The whole sequence probally could have been cut down to three minutes, and it would still be awesome, but they dragged it out to a five minute length. It's still awesome, but I guess my biggest complaint about the sequence is that nothing is resolved because of it. We get five minutes of fighting, yet nothing happens because of it. None of the 100 Agents die, Neo isn't injured. Nothing happens.
  23. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    "Yes, it is a "chick flick" (even though I'm rather fond of it myself.) Big difference between a chick flick with a hunky lead and a film with a love-story aimed at kids."

    Now, now, Durwood. Surely, you're not saying Hayden isn't "hunky". [face_laugh] ;)

    Besides, what, in your opinion, is the difference? Don't both films essentially revolve around a love story, bookended by character development and plot build-up on one side, and violence, destruction and death on the other side? (Not trying to minimize anything, just simplifying.)

    Of course, Pearl Harbor tried to recreate the Titanic formula, and didn't. As I had heard it described (and politely so), it was a 2-hour movie squeezed into 3 hours. ;)

    Simply having a love story in the film doesn't necessarily make or break the film, although how the love story is portrayed certainly makes a difference.
  24. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    Simply having a love story in the film doesn't necessarily make or break the film, although how the love story is portrayed certainly makes a difference.

    Titanic was pitched as a romance starring Leonardo DiCaprio. That's an immediate draw for females and a general audience. Attack of the Clones was pitched as a science fiction/action film that just happend to include a romance sub-plot. Science fiction has traditionally had smaller draws.

    And it's interesting to note that The Empire Strikes Back, another science fiction/action film with a romance sub-plot, was also the least financially successful of the original films. Coincidence?
  25. rgard32 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2003
    star 1
    YeS! that 15 minute car chase scene ROCKED!!!









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