So now the Matrix fans have their Phantom Menace?

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by sdj, May 18, 2003.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    "And it's interesting to note that The Empire Strikes Back , another science fiction/action film with a romance sub-plot, was also the least financially successful of the original films. Coincidence?"

    I would have to say yes.
  2. gezvader28 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2003
    star 4
    Clonetrooper-
    Regarding your opinions of Lucas?s ?predictions? for AOTC box office:
    1.you?re trying to attach way too much importance to his words, Lucas has often said he doesn't know why these films do the business they do, he?s never pretended to.
    2. And as for predicting Box Office - Lucas has never professed to be any good at that either. As Durwood pointed out a few pages ago:
    He even made a bet with Spielberg that Episode I wouldn't clear $200 million and was actually stunned that it did as well as it did.

    And in 1997 during the SE release he predicted that ANH would take less than less than $10mil in it?s opening weekend, it took $36million. He said "I am flabbergasted, I just did not expect this to happen."

    3. Even if he does think the love story element will mean less audience why should we think the same? It could just as easily be argued that a love story would attract more audience, Ever hear of TITANIC?.
    Or - if the love story had been better - it would have attracted more people, it's not only kids who see these films. . It's all guessing anyway,

    So what makes you think Lucas is so clever at predicting box office or the reasons for it?

    Simply predicting that AOTC would take less than TPM is hardly brilliant.
    Lucas uses common sense ? if he?s asked to predict he predicts low, that way if the B.O. is high the film will have 'exceeded expectations', and if it is low then Lucas will seem to be right.

    - In the four years since the TPM was released, more major sequels have made more money than their predecessor.

    You might be right - sequels recently have done better , which doesn't reflect too well on AOTC, does it?



    BTW - Are you ever going to offer any evidence for the following:

    And the cold, hard, undeniable truth is that a much smaller percentage of people have a real desire to attend the cinema than they did 20 years ago.
    Now that is a fact! Wake up and smell the rotten kipper


    You did say it 5 days ago.

    Durwood-
    Titanic was pitched as a romance starring Leonardo DiCaprio. That's an immediate draw for females and a general audience. Attack of the Clones was pitched as a science fiction/action film that just happend to include a romance sub-plot. Science fiction has traditionally had smaller draws.

    Have a look at the top 20 or 30 grossers, you'll find plenty of Sci-Fi/Action films in there.

    And it's interesting to note that The Empire Strikes Back, another science fiction/action film with a romance sub-plot, was also the least financially successful of the original films. Coincidence?

    That's incorrect, in worldwide grosses ESB has taken more than ROTJ.

    I think it?s silly to assume that a ?romance? element will automatically hurt the box office of a movie, there are too many other factors involved.

    And I'm sure we've all got our own ideas about why there was a drop-off for AOTC's box office! ;)


    g


  3. AdamBertocci Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2002
    star 7
    I just had to share this. I ran across this gem of a post at another message board. It's not an SW or movie board or anythin'... just a guy who decided to share his feelings on Reloaded.


    The Matrix Reloaded was a good movie. If you think it was a bad movie, then you're an idiot. Plain and simple.

    I mean, I'm not going to back that up with facts or anything, because you won't understand them; but trust me, you're an idiot.

    A big one.

    Like, if you took the biggest non-Matrix Reloaded-hating idiot on the planet, and you multiplied him by three or four, you would get roughly half of the idiot factor contained in one of your Matrix Reloaded haters.

    It's not a bad movie. If it was the first in the series, all you guys would be coming home telling everybody about how awesome it was. But people think it's cool to make fun of sequels.

    People who suck do. And they're idiots.


    [face_laugh]

    This is up there with the guy who claimed that it was the critics' JOB to like Reloaded "because it is a GOOD MOVIE". (EDIT: I tried to find the link, I really did. If you're interested, look for my post in this thread when I visit MatrixFans.net and provide links to basher/gusher threads.)

    So remember... if you ever think discussion here is uncivil, take heart, it could be a lot worse!


    Rick McCallum loves you! (Plain and simple.)
  4. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    This is up there with the guy who claimed that it was the critics' JOB to like Reloaded "because it is a GOOD MOVIE".

    Somebody actually said that? ?[face_plain]

    That's on par with the guy saying he was the better Star Wars fan because he cared enough about the saga to hate the prequels. (And, no, I don't have a link, because I don't feel like searching the Jedi Council archives for a four year old post.)
  5. ST-TPM-ASF-TNE Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2001
    star 6
    The Matrix Reloaded was a good movie. If you think it was a bad movie, then you're an idiot. Plain and simple.

    So, by that logic, if somebody who went to Harvard and graduated with the highest honors and eventually went on to be the top ranking rocket scientist for NASA said that the thought TMR was a bad movie...then he is an idiot compared to the guy who posted this review, who more than likely is young adult who never went to college living in his parent's basement and watching The Matrix all day in his underwear until TMR comes out on DVD.

    Hmmm...somehow I think his logic is flawed ;)

    Does anybody remember the good old days when you could have an opinion, and you weren't right or wrong either way? Ya, those were the days ;)
  6. TadjiStation Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2001
    star 4
    I think DOTF is the best action sequence I've ever seen, but as a whole, I think AOTC is the best action movie. The Pod Race is awesome, but I think if suffers from "too long" sydrome. It was still awesome though, just like the Burley Brawl, but like I said, a bit too long. :D

    Cool. Thanks for the breakdown! :)

    Overall, I thought the flow of AOTC was smoother than TPM. To me, TPM dragged on between really amazing action sequences. The POD Race, as modeled after the Chariot Race from Ben Hur, was incredible! The DOTF (particularly when Obi-Wan goes against Maul one on one, still makes me shiver). :)

    AOTC, by comparison, almost moved too fast, despite the smoother pace of the film. The Coruscant chase with Zam, for example, I thought was too hectic and shoddily edited to really grab me (not to mention Zam's electric guitar ship being a major distraction!) :D

    That said, there were elements of the Geonosian Arena that were excellent, and I found the ground battle at the end of the film spectacular.

    To me, this is where Lucas really excels - the integration of the technical (visual fx) into really good action sequences (best represented in TPM and less so in AOTC).

    In closing, I'm curious to see where he ends up going in Epidsode III. I still hold out that it will be a good film, or at least another step forward in his storytelling abilities.

    :)
  7. rgard32 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2003
    star 1
    Well Hopefully he will stop doing CUT-SCENES in the middle of a battle to show Stupid Humor...






    HOPEFULLY

  8. ST-TPM-ASF-TNE Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2001
    star 6
    Well Hopefully he will stop doing CUT-SCENES in the middle of a battle to show Stupid Humor...

    And hopefully the Wachowski Brothers will stop doing fifteen slow motion shots in one five minute sequence ;)
  9. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    Cheese-ball humor has always been a part of Star Wars. What makes anybody think Lucas is going to abandon it now?
  10. rgard32 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2003
    star 1
    And hopefully the Wachowski Brothers will stop doing fifteen slow motion shots in one five minute sequence




    15? hrmm i better go recount..i only saw 4-5..........Oh well ill take bullet time over C3P0 humor anyday...
  11. ST-TPM-ASF-TNE Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2001
    star 6
    No, the last time I saw TMR I counted "in the least" 15 slow motion/camera stopping shots. And I'm not referring to bullet-time (as bullet-time refers to bullets, which are not present during the Neo/Agent Smiths fight ;) ).

    Don't get me wrong. I like the slow motion techniques the Wachowski Brothers use, but dear god, not 15 shots in a five minute period. It's overkill. I was sick of their slow-motion techniques by the end of the sequence. At some point you just have to say, "enough is enough".

    I'd rather take thirty seconds of intercut goofy humor as opposed to slow-motion shots every ten seconds ;)
  12. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    "Cheese-ball humor has always been a part of Star Wars. What makes anybody think Lucas is going to abandon it now?"

    but fart jokes and lame anachronistic puns were never a part of Star Wars until the PT. why did Lucas decide to change things now? the humor is entirely not the same. "this is a drag" and "thats gotta hurt" are nothing like the humor of the OT. if things continue like this, threepio will be saying "ive fallen and i cant get up" in episode III and Mace will be doing Arnold lines like "ill be back" or "this party's over"... oh wait, he already did one of those in AOTC.
  13. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    but fart jokes and lame anachronistic puns were never a part of Star Wars until the PT.

    Oh, of course not. The original films had witty sophisticated humor like "I don't know where you get your delusions, laser brain!" and "Laugh it up, fuzzball!" And who could forget the subtle comedy of Chewie growling at the mouse droid, only to hear it shriek in terror before scurrying out of frame? And let's not forget the thoughtful humor of the frog thing outside of Jabba's palace letting loose a loud belch after consuming some unfortunate creature.

    Yeah, Lucas didn't start doing the silly stuff until the prequels. [rolls_eyes]
  14. AdamBertocci Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2002
    star 7
    Silly Durwood. You didn't address anachronisms.

    "Not this ship, sister" *cough*

    And don't forget the haircuts. Those have gotta be anachronistic if the media made a freakin' NEWS story about how the Episode III cast had to get their hair done 70s-style.

    On that note, one of my favorite SW-related quotes ever. :p :D Mark Hamill's a funny guy.

    If this is less anachronistic to you than "This is such a drag" (what decade is that supposed to invoke, anyway?), hey, to each his own. But I'm never letting you cut my hair.



    Rick McCallum loves you!
  15. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    Yes, if A New Hope was made in the 90's, Han would have said, "Not this ship, girlfriend!"
  16. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    "Not this ship, sister"

    That's not an anachronism, it's foreshadowing! :D
  17. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    how is "not this ship, sister" an anachronism?

    and Durwood, if you think the comedy of Star Wars is so lame, why are you a fan? i think think only the PT has lame comedy, so i am not a fan of the PT.

    look, if you cant see the difference, i cant help you. i can only try and point them out for you.
  18. Clonetrooper1000 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 24, 2003
    star 3
    ST-TPM-ASF-TNE: "but dear god, not 15 shots in a five minute period."

    You should try watching some Peckinpah. The opening and closing shoot-outs of The Wild Bunch are filled with slow motion shots, well over 15 in 5 minute spells. Thats why a technical aspect like this should really be subject to its misuse and not it overuse. The real question is do the slo-mo shots help the action scenes? Do they slow it down? Is it a gimmick?

    My own opinion is that although the action scenes were mostly excellent, they did use some slow-mo in a pretentious manner. Kind of like an 'artificial style' as opposed to a 'justified style', if you get my meaning.

    Evazan: "and Durwood, if you think the comedy of Star Wars is so lame, why are you a fan?"

    Probably because Star Wars is not a comedy. Its not a major factor in liking each film or not.

    Evazan: "i think think only the PT has lame comedy, so i am not a fan of the PT."

    You don't like the PT because of the comedy? :confused:

    Somehow I think you would prefer Spaceballs to Star Wars ;)
  19. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    how is "not this ship, sister" an anachronism?

    The term "sister" was right out of late 70's lingo. It's similiar to today's "girlfriend."

    Now I still don't understand how "This is such a drag!" and "I'm beside myself!" are anachoristic. Are you sure you even know what that word means? Seriously, do you? I'm not trying to be insulting.

    and Durwood, if you think the comedy of Star Wars is so lame, why are you a fan?

    Who said it was lame? I said Star Wars humor in general was cheeseball, and I love every bit of it!
  20. Oakessteve Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 9, 1999
    star 6
    "Now I still don't understand how "This is such a drag!" and "I'm beside myself!" are anachoristic."

    They're not anachoristic, they're just bloody awful gags!
  21. Scott3eyez Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 1, 2001
    star 4
    "I'm not in this for your revolution, sister" must be the most anachronistic line of the saga.

    And the Sarlaac's belch, considering it's the middle of a battle, is a more striking example of out of place body-function humour than any poop or fart in the prequels.


    That said, I don't recall any bad puns in the OT...
  22. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    "Thats why a technical aspect like this should really be subject to its misuse and not it overuse. The real question is do the slo-mo shots help the action scenes? Do they slow it down? Is it a gimmick?"

    A point that has been brought up several times about the humor in the PT vs. the OT. Odd.

    "They're not anachoristic, they're just bloody awful gags!"

    Agreed. They are contrived, unlike the OT.
  23. AdamBertocci Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2002
    star 7
    "Not this ship, sister"

    That's not an anachronism, it's foreshadowing!


    Well, it IS an anachronism, as described already, but when Durwood pointed out that it was the 70s equivalent of "Not this ship, girlfriend," something clicked in my mind.

    "Girlfriend" is also foreshadowing. :eek:

    Star Wars is truly timeless. :p



    Anyway...

    Since when does cheeseball neccesarily carry NEGATIVE connotations? When did this world become so cynical? I've said it before and I'll say it again: the rope-swing scene in ANH sums up for me what the SW tone should be, and I think it's a pretty cheesy scene. I am not interested in SW pretending to be 'cool'. (Which is why the Yoda Da Man commercials didn't thrill me.) As Huey Lewis said, "It's hip to be a square."


    Rick McCallum loves you!
  24. gezvader28 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2003
    star 4

    My problem with the humor in TPM is that it isn't funny.
    It's like watching a stand-up comic dying on stage.
    Just look at ANH, the humor between Han, Luke and Leia is terrific and it informs us of their character, their relationship with each other, it helps the pacing. And - it's really funny. It's a delight. That whole section on the Death Star with the main characters is so effective at connecting with the audience. And the humor is natural, it doesn't seem forced.

    Compared to TPM - well here George has decided that he'll give all the gags to one character, JarJarBinks (dear God, the very mention of the name is depressing.)
    So whenever George feels he needs a comedy moment - on comes JJB. And it's all so forced.

    In the OT all the characters had humor, even Vader. They had humor because they were well written characters, the humor came naturally from who they were and their situation. The humor connects with us because it shows the characters' humanity.

    In TPM it's like "okay bring on the goofy frog to do his routine"..."okay gag's over, continue with boring dialogue scene."
    All the other characters in TPM are so humorless. The only genuinely funny scene is the moment with Watto "What you think you're some kinda Jedi?!" It was well timed and showed that QG doesn't always succeed.
    Shame there weren't more moments like this.
    IMO


    g
  25. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    "The term "sister" was right out of late 70's lingo. It's similiar to today's "girlfriend." "

    no it isnt, and this is where you show that your frame of reference is COMPLETELY off, but it also explains many of your opinions. "not this ship, sister" has NOTHING to do with 70s lingo. it is straight out of Preston Sturges/Capra, 30s, Nick and Nora, Hepburn/Grant dialogue which people have many times noted, Lucas is trying to resurrect with the PT. but he is not doing it in the PT, he is only paying it lip service. "not my ship, sister" is EXACTLY in line with the type of fast talking character of Han Solo.

    "Now I still don't understand how "This is such a drag!" and "I'm beside myself!" are anachoristic. Are you sure you even know what that word means? Seriously, do you? I'm not trying to be insulting."

    this is such a drag IS sixities lingo by way of the 20's a'la "what a drag, man", so it is not only anachronistic, but also totally out of character for Threepio. on top of that it is a lame pun, and not even the first time its been used in a film/lame comedy. "im beside myself" is not an anachronism, its just plain stupid and cliched. makes me wonder if you know what an anachronism is, or what comedy is, or writing in a characters voice is for that matter.

    "You don't like the PT because of the comedy?"

    i dont like the PT because of the lame comedy, bad writing, terrible direction, awful performances, shoddy editing... need i go on? the insipid nature of the "comedy" in the prequels is just one of many many problems i have with the films.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.