So now the Matrix fans have their Phantom Menace?

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by sdj, May 18, 2003.

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  1. gezvader28 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2003
    star 4
    The great thing about the humor in the OT is that it wasn't just left to a 'Comedy relief' character, there was plenty of comedy between the human characters, look at all the great stuff between Han , Luke and Leia.

    Now look at TPM - where is the comedy between the human characters in that?

    g
  2. Durwood Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    The OT would have bad/badly-delivered lines peppered throughout, ROTJ more than the other two. The PT has bad/badly delivered lines in almost every single scene. That's the difference.

    No, that's your opinion.

    ----------

    Now look at TPM - where is the comedy between the human characters in that?

    "Are you braindead? I'm not going in there with two Jedi! Send the droid." (The droid's reaction is hilarious.)

    "Are you brainless? You almost got us killed."
    "I speak!"
    "The ability to speak does not make one intelligent."

    "You were right about one thing, master--the negotiations were short!"

    "They'll catch us, grind us into little pieces and then blast us into oblivion!"
    "Yousa point is well said."

    "No! No again! The beings out there are cwazy! We lible to get robbed and crunched!"
    "Not likely. We have nothing of value. That's our problem."

    "I'm sure you'll do it this time!"
    "Do what?"
    "Finish the race of course."
    "You've never finished a race?"
    "Kitster's right. I will finish this time!"
    (The look on Padme's face is priceless.)

    Of course, I noticed that you limited it to just human characters, but I naturally expanded it to all characters. There was a lot of humor between character interaction in TPM. Then again, I wasn't aware these films were judged by the number of laughs they got.

    (That reminds me of how Laurel and Hardy used to critique their films. They'd sit in the theater and keep a record of how many guffaws, laughs, and belly laughs each gag got in order to determine which formulas were the most successful. There's a bit of trivia for you.)
  3. Darth_Insidious Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2002
    star 4
  4. Green_Destiny_Sword Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 20, 2001
    star 4
    You can compare the lines all you want but there's a lot more people who love the OT scenes than the PT. Period.
  5. Durwood Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
  6. Darth_Insidious Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2002
    star 4
    Nah, its blindingly obvious to anyone who looks for it. You of course would accept nothing less than non-existant statistical proof before you'd admit this out loud, even though I'm pretty sure you know deep down that it's true.

    As for those who do accept it, they're secure in the knowledge that they're the ones who are right, and not the ones hiding from the truth. And that's what matters at the end of the day. :)
  7. Cometgreen Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2002
    star 4
    "As for those who do accept it, they're secure in the knowledge that they're the ones who are right, and not the ones hiding from the truth. And that's what matters at the end of the day."

    And then there are those of us who don't really care who likes the OT more than the PT. Some of us are content with the enjoyment that the PT has given us; we don't need to try and rain on other people's parade. ;)

    But hey, for what it's worth, I can assure you that more people like The Matrix more than The Matrix Reloaded. :p

    Cometgreen
  8. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    <--- hasn't seen TMR either. :(
  9. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    i like the matrix more than matrix reloaded!

    and i like those and tons of other films more than TPM and AOTC.

    what's your point?
  10. Clonetrooper1000 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 24, 2003
    star 3
    Darth_Insidious, I have just remembered something. The Shawshank Redemption is not Darabont's directorial debut. It is his theatrical debut. That is why I really think Donnie Darko is something different. Like Orson Welles, Kelly is very young, has learned his trade but has no professional experience in the medium. Its quite unbelievable when you look at the finished product.

    Like Darabont, Chicago director Rob Marshall has also had professional experience and directed a TV movie. So Chicago is also a theatrical debut, not a directorial debut. I don't think it is a great film either.

    Another great feature debut is Francois Truffaut's The 400 Blows.

    DrEvazan: "have you forgotten all about Jar-Jar?"

    No. Jar Jar was not really criticised for the quality of his humour. He was a mischaracterisation for this type of film. I think most kids and even adults found him funny, yet SW fans despise him.

    Darth_Insidious: "As for those who do accept it, they're secure in the knowledge that they're the ones who are right, and not the ones hiding from the truth."

    So what you are really saying is that anyone who has the same opinion as your own is correct. That kind of defies the whole concept of opinions. ;)
  11. Darth_Insidious Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2002
    star 4
    Eh, we both know if it isn't theatrical is ain't worth ***** ;)

    >>>So what you are really saying is that anyone who has the same opinion as your own is correct. That kind of defies the whole concept of opinions.<<<

    No, this isn't an opinionated matter. More people like the OT than the PT. That's what that comment was refering to.
  12. JohnWilliams00 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 29, 2002
    star 4
    Just thought I chime in and say The Matrix Reloaded has crossed the $700 million mark in worldwide grosses. It currently stands at $706 million.

    To rub it in more, TMR has earned almost $60 million more than AOTC, and it could earn another $20-$30 million more when it's all said and done. In the game of life, we all know that Box Office $$$ = Love 8-}

    And speaking of first-time directors, I'd also like to mention Terence Malick. His feature debut, Badlands, was a fine achievement.
  13. Clonetrooper1000 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 24, 2003
    star 3
    Darth_Insidious: "Eh, we both know if it isn't theatrical is ain't worth *****"

    Agreed in the most part. Don't forget Steven Spielberg's debut Duel and Michael Mann's debut The Jericho Mile. Both made for TV, both brilliant and both regarded as their director's debut films.
    I think most people do tend to include TV movies as a directorial debut, although they are mostly crap.

    JohnWilliams00: "And speaking of first-time directors, I'd also like to mention Terence Malick. His feature debut, Badlands, was a fine achievement."

    There's another one. Good call JW. I forgot about that. I also rate John Huston's The Maltese Falcon and Takeshi Kitano's Violent Cop as two of the greatest debuts.
  14. Durwood Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    Nah, its blindingly obvious to anyone who looks for it.

    I see you have a firm grasp on voicing your opinion.

    You of course would accept nothing less than non-existant statistical proof before you'd admit this out loud, even though I'm pretty sure you know deep down that it's true.

    Yeah, that must be it. [rolls_eyes]

    As for those who do accept it, they're secure in the knowledge that they're the ones who are right, and not the ones hiding from the truth.

    Except that every prequel poll on this site shows an overwhelming majority of Star Wars fans support and enjoy the prequels. There's even a current poll asking if we think Lucas' Episode III script will be better than some of the amateur scribblings currently floating around, and over 60% say yes. So I'm really not sure how you're getting this fantasy of yours.

    But whatever helps you sleep at night.
  15. TadjiStation Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2001
    star 4
    DURWOOD

    "Are you braindead? I'm not going in there with two Jedi! Send the droid." (The droid's reaction is hilarious.)

    It is? :confused:

    "Are you brainless? You almost got us killed."
    "I speak!"
    "The ability to speak does not make one intelligent."


    Nothing particularly funny about this one either...

    "You were right about one thing, master--the negotiations were short!"

    Hardee HAR HAR....
    oh wait - GROAN!

    "They'll catch us, grind us into little pieces and then blast us into oblivion!"
    "Yousa point is well said."


    D'OH! Lame delivery on BOTH parts does not make for a funny scene.

    "No! No again! The beings out there are cwazy! We lible to get robbed and crunched!"
    "Not likely. We have nothing of value. That's our problem."


    This is NOT funny.

    "I'm sure you'll do it this time!"
    "Do what?"
    "Finish the race of course."
    "You've never finished a race?"
    "Kitster's right. I will finish this time!"
    (The look on Padme's face is priceless.)


    Okay...

    If these are the best examples of hilarity you could come up with, then I strongly suggest you view something that's truly funny, because these quoted lines (to me) are flat out TERRIBLE! :p

    Watch a little Charlie Chaplin or Buster Keaton for priceless physical comedy. Watch a little Laurel and Hardy for some true verbal yuk yuks.

    To bring it into more recent comedy, watch just about anything with Bill Murray in it for good deadpan comedy and timing (The first Ghostbusters comes to mind). For slapstick and crude humor, watch ANYTHING by the ZAZ team (Zucker, Abrahms, Zucker) - the creators of such classics as AIRPLANE, TOP SECRET and more recently RAT RACE (okay that last one was Jerry Zucker only, but you get the point).

    On another subject, how about the auspicious debut of Sam Raimi - THE EVIL DEAD. Very effective low budget horror.

    :)
  16. Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2001
    star 6
    So have we given up related the discussion to matrix?


    As for 3P0's AOTC humor, it still gets a smile out of me and I really don't see what the big deal is. To my ears, it's no worse than 3P0 nattering on during ESB's carbon freezing and subsequent escape scene.

    Oh, ESB was far worse! Everytime I watch that I wonder how Han kept from spacing Goldenrod.


    "shoddy editing"

    Actually, there is very little wrong with the editing in the film.


    I disagree. Some of those cuts are just plan jarring. Though I could live with the editing (TTT had some poorly edited scenes, but that doesn't stop me from liking it) if the dialogue and story telling had been improved.


    Hey what about Piranha 2 by James Cameron?

    Now that I didn't know! Now I actually want to watch P2.
  17. Scott3eyez Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 1, 2001
    star 4
    Who is it whose got that Monty Python sig- "that's not an argument- it's just a string of contradictions!"

    I think it's rather telling that the "comedy gold" of the original trilogy hasn't been quoted once, despite the number of posters claiming it's superiority.

    (Although it has to be said, "boring conversation anyway" doesn't come across as particularly funny in print...)

    >>>You can compare the lines all you want but there's a lot more people who love the OT scenes than the PT. Period.

    You can compare the music all you want, but there's a lot more people who love Justin Timberlake than Mozart.

    Doesn't say anything about quality.

    >>>To rub it in more, TMR has earned almost $60 million more than AOTC, and it could earn another $20-$30 million more when it's all said and done. In the game of life, we all know that Box Office $$$ = Love

    So, what did the Star Wars fans' Phantom Menace make again?

    8-}
  18. Durwood Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    Somebody asked for examples of humor between characters, and I provided several examples. Whether anybody else personally finds said examples funny is irrelevant. And, no, I don't need to watch comedy films as I have a pretty good idea of what I think is funny (for the record, Stan Laurel and Oliver Hardy are my all time favorite comedy duo). I say again, I wasn't aware Star Wars was judged by the number of belly laughs it got.

    And that quote about a string of contradictions is right on. That's what makes debating on these forums so annoying. Too many times, discussions turn into "Is not!/Is so!"
  19. VCT Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 3
    >>>You can compare the lines all you want but there's a lot more people who love the OT scenes than the PT. Period.

    You can compare the music all you want, but there's a lot more people who love Justin Timberlake than Mozart.

    Doesn't say anything about quality.



    :eek: OMG. Please tell me you are joking. That analogy is so wrong in so many ways it is not even funny.

    Whether you mean it or not, the implication of that argument is that OT humor is the creative equivalent of Justin Timberlake, and PT humor is the creative equivalent of Mozart. [face_laugh] I'm sorry, I just can't take ANYTHING you say seriously after that one.


  20. TadjiStation Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2001
    star 4
    Somebody asked for examples of humor between characters, and I provided several examples. Whether anybody else personally finds said examples funny is irrelevant.

    It's not irrelevant in the context of this discussion. YOU thought the examples you provided were humorous. If someone else disagrees with you, why is that irrelevant?

    In other words, you provided examples of dialogue for which we have a difference of opinion. Therefore, either both of our viewpoints are equally useless, or have equal merit. Which is it? :confused:

    And, no, I don't need to watch comedy films as I have a pretty good idea of what I think is funny (for the record, Stan Laurel and Oliver Hardy are my all time favorite comedy duo). I say again, I wasn't aware Star Wars was judged by the number of belly laughs it got.

    Fair enough. Laurel and Hardy are most excellent! :) Many of us here are simply pointing out what we see as a difference in the type and quality of humor presented in both trilogies. I, and others, are arguing that they are not the same. Others argue that they are.

    And that quote about a string of contradictions is right on. That's what makes debating on these forums so annoying. Too many times, discussions turn into "Is not!/Is so!"

    Then the simple question to ask yourself is: "Why do I keep getting into the same arguments over and over again?" ;)

    Now for a time out: This thread is supposed to include discussions of TMR, and yet I see none of that happening in the most recent posts (my own posts included). Can we please try to steer this thread back on topic?

    I'll start. As the topic at hand seems to revolve around humor, did anyone here find any humor at all in TMR? If so, how does it compare to the humor (if any) in the first Matrix. Finally, would you consider said humor to be better integrated in SW or The Matrix?

    Fire away!

    :)
  21. topgoalscorer_no11 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 23, 2001
    star 3
    It's always amusing watching Keanu Reeves trying to emote.

    The Matrix films are indescribably humourless.

    Thank god Star Wars (PT or OT) doesn't take itself so seriously.
  22. topgoalscorer_no11 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 23, 2001
    star 3
    It's always amusing watching Keanu Reeves trying to emote.

    The Matrix films are indescribably humourless.

    Thank god Star Wars (PT or OT) doesn't take itself so seriously.
  23. Cometgreen Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2002
    star 4
    "It's not irrelevant in the context of this discussion. YOU thought the examples you provided were humorous. If someone else disagrees with you, why is that irrelevant?"

    He was trying to prove that there is comedy between characters, as opposed to Jar Jar having the only comedic lines. So, your own opinion on the quality is irrelevent, as there was intended comedic interaction between characters.

    Let's see...there were about 3 times in TMR when I gave off a chuckle. No laugh out loud moments, hell I barely even laughed. I chuckled once or twice with the pilot's jokes (who is the only actual human character, the rest are emotionless), and maybe once at the Oracle's speech. But the same joke was used in the first Matrix.

    That's one of the main reasons I didn't like TMR. Every movie today has comedy. Serious dramas have comedy. Action films have comedy. Mystery films have comedy. Comedy films have comedy. ;)

    Cometgreen, who thought that C3PO's reactions in AOTC were sooo C3PO
  24. Darth_Insidious Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2002
    star 4
    Except that every prequel poll on this site shows an overwhelming majority of Star Wars fans support and enjoy the prequels. There's even a current poll asking if we think Lucas' Episode III script will be better than some of the amateur scribblings currently floating around, and over 60% say yes. So I'm really not sure how you're getting this fantasy of yours.

    Oh man, they're saying that a professional and experienced writer will probably script something better than, as you put, "amatuer scribblings"? And over 60% of them? Wow!

    [face_laugh]

    Only 60% say George will write something better than the no-name amatuers? This fanbase just has a ton of faith in the man, don't they? ;)

    On the other note, do you honestly believe that more people like the PT than the OT?
  25. Darth Geist Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    There is some degree of subjectivity to humor, of course, but whether or not a particular viewer finds those bits you posted humorous, Durwood, that's still only six gags in a two-hour-plus film, and half of them still involve Jar Jar.

    Threepio gets a very few moments before the film discards him, and Obi gets a couple of decent lines (although "Why do I sense that we've picked up another pathetic life form" is forced in the extreme), but Jar Jar gets much more than the lion's share of the attempted humor.
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