So now the Matrix fans have their Phantom Menace?

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by sdj, May 18, 2003.

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  1. JohnWilliams00 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 29, 2002
    star 4
    Oh man, they're saying that a professional and experienced writer will probably script something better than, as you put, "amatuer scribblings"? And over 60% of them? Wow!

    Only 60% say George will write something better than the no-name amatuers? This fanbase just has a ton of faith in the man, don't they?



    And that means 40% thinks GL should be replaced. That's almost half the voters. [face_laugh]
    And speaking of polls, I seem to remember, on this very site, the prequels losing to LOTR on a few occasions.

  2. Cometgreen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2002
    star 4
    "On the other note, do you honestly believe that more people like the PT than the OT?"

    The young-uns do. ;)

    Cometgreen, wondering why everything must be turned into a contest
  3. winter_chili Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2002
    star 5
    Up until I was about 12 i thought Empire was the worst and Jedi and TPM where the best. The worst movies to us are the favorites of young kids,if you were 9 when you saw TPM youd like it and as much as we hate it, young kids are the people george makes these movies for

  4. Darth Geist Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    "If you were 9 when you saw TPM youd like it"

    Kids'll watch anything aimed anywhere near their age bracket. How else do you think we got to Land Before Time Part XI?
  5. winter_chili Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2002
    star 5
    lol i dont know about you but when i was 9 i wouldnt be caught dead watching that crap, thats really more along the lines of barney


    It's always amusing watching Keanu Reeves trying to emote.

    The Matrix films are indescribably humourless.

    Thank god Star Wars (PT or OT) doesn't take itself so seriously.



    Wwaaa???

    Remember in TMR when its all seroius and the agents bust in and Neo's like "Hiya fellas" you call that taking itself seroiusly?

    And i would point out that in my audience TMR got quite a few laughs


    Kids'll watch anything aimed anywhere near their age bracket

    yeah but will they deck them selves out in clothing to match? not often
  6. VCT Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 3
    that's still only six gags in a two-hour-plus film, and half of them still involve Jar Jar.

    Ah, but remember, Jar Jar is the Mozart of humor. It's all about quality. :p


  7. Darth Geist Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    Think of what you watched when you were five, or seven, or ten. There are, of course, genuinely well-crafted kids' films out there, but much more often than not, "It's a kid's movie" translates to "We don't have to try very hard."

    And they don't. By and large, kids have pretty low standards; cut-rate animation, slapdash storylines and ham-fisted acting don't bother them until they watch enough films to spot cliches (among other things) and raise the bar.
  8. Cometgreen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2002
    star 4
    "Ah, but remember, Jar Jar is the Mozart of humor. It's all about quality."

    You have no idea what an analogy is, do you?

    Actually, thanks chili. I forgot the part when the agent blocks Neo from choking him, followed by the "Huh, upgrades." Surpisingly, quite a lot of people made the connection.

    But if you think TMR doesn't take itself seriously...

    Cometgreen
  9. gezvader28 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2003
    star 4
    Durwood-
    Somebody asked for examples of humor between characters, and I provided several examples. Whether anybody else personally finds said examples funny is irrelevant.

    It was actually me.
    And I asked for: examples of comedy between the human characters in TPM.
    You gave only 2 examples of comedy between the human characters:

    "You were right about one thing, master--the negotiations were short!"

    "I'm sure you'll do it this time!"
    "Do what?"
    "Finish the race of course."
    "You've never finished a race?"
    "Kitster's right. I will finish this time!"
    (The look on Padme's face is priceless.)

    This illustrates my point perfectly. Those examples are weak.
    The rest of your list was padded out with examples involving Nemoidians, droids etc. those were equally lame (IMHO)

    I say again, I wasn't aware Star Wars was judged by the number of belly laughs it got.

    We can judge it from many aspects, we just happen to be dicussing humor at this time.

    There's even a current poll asking if we think Lucas' Episode III script will be better than some of the amateur scribblings currently floating around, and over 60% say yes. So I'm really not sure how you're getting this fantasy of yours.

    Wow! Overwhelming support! [face_laugh] [face_laugh]

    g

  10. gezvader28 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2003
    star 4
    Scott-
    Who is it whose got that Monty Python sig- "that's not an argument- it's just a string of contradictions!"

    That would be me:
    "An argument isn't just contradiction."
    "Yes it is."
    "No it isn't!"

    Well spotted, Scott, it's from the argument sketch in Monty Python. :)

    I think it's rather telling that the "comedy gold" of the original trilogy hasn't been quoted once, despite the number of posters claiming it's superiority

    Well that sounds like a challenge - now it wouldn't be fair to compare the comedy in the OT to the comedy in TPM since the OT is 3 movies, but how about if we compare the comedy in ANH to TPM? How about if I post 5 examples from ANH and then you post 5 from TPM, and we let the readers decide. totally unscientific, but what the hell.
    However I am aware that this is a bit off-topic, so - Mods - can we be allowed a little leeway on this?

    g
  11. VCT Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 3
    You have no idea what an analogy is, do you?

    Sheesh. Of course I know what an analogy is, and I know what Scott3eyes was trying to say. I just thought it was hilarious.

    It was also a flawed analogy, since I highly doubt that Justin Timberlake's music has or ever will have the universal and enduring popularity that Mozart's music has. Justin is a flash-in-the-pan compared to Mozart. Therefore I'd say that Mozart is more popular as well as higher quality. Since 3eyes was trying to say that something that is more popular isn't necessarily better, he could have used far more effective and accurate examples in his analogy.

    On a different note, I do think the Mozart-to-Timberlake comparison works if you are comparing the OT (Mozart: classic, enduring appeal) to the PT (Timberlake: popular now, but who knows how popular years from now), even though the time frame is much narrower. Just my opinion.


  12. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    It's always amusing watching Keanu Reeves trying to emote.

    The Matrix films are indescribably humourless.

    Thank god Star Wars (PT or OT) doesn't take itself so seriously.


    That's one of the most refreshingly honest comments I've seen in this thread for some time. Well played!
  13. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    And that means 40% thinks GL should be replaced. That's almost half the voters.

    Actually, less than 25% thought Lucas' script would be worse. The rest had no opinion.
  14. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    And I asked for: examples of comedy between the human characters in TPM.
    You gave only 2 examples of comedy between the human characters.


    That's because your challenge was arbitrarily restrictive. I changed the rules of your challenge to make it more reasonable.
  15. JohnWilliams00 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 29, 2002
    star 4
    Not having side-splitting jokes in a movie does not mean it's "taking itself too seriously". Last time I checked, 2001: A Space Odyssey didn't have any jokes. Neither did The Hours or even Minority Report. (MR had a couple)

    The few light moments of humor in the Matrix films works for me. Warner Bros. tried to make Reloaded a PG-13 film to make it more profitable, thus altering the content of the movies a great deal. Good thing the Wachowski's don't really give a hoot about cute, self-referential jokes. So you won't be finding an American Graffiti diner anytime soon.

    If having more laughs is that important for you (even in an apocalyptic movie), than I'm starting to see why you guys love Jar Jar so much. 8-}


  16. topgoalscorer_no11 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 23, 2001
    star 3
    Ah, but the Matrix Reloaded is a film which takes itself seriously and fails to say anything meaningful in any way whatsoever.

    It takes itself seriously, yet has less story and more completely redundant set pieces than in either PT film.

    It purports to have philosophical elements, yet it's observations are mind-numbingly banal even by the standards of a Hollywood blockbuster. That 'cause and effect' scene was groan inducingly embarrasing.

    The encounter with the 'architect' and his pathetic pseudo intellectual ramblings...

    And of course - 'so, like we need machines, but like... they need us! No way, man!'

    Anyone over the age of twenty who is impressed by the so-called 'philosophical' aspect of TMR needs further education - or even to perhaps just read a few books.

    It's bad science fiction, which takes itself seriously.

    The prequels, for all their flaws, are just fun space fantasy movies, their only pretension is the 'mythological' aspect, which is probably overstated anyway.

    EDIT: Comparing The Matrix Reloaded to 2001... I won't even dignify this comment with a retort.
  17. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    ^^^
    I could not agree more. Excellent post!
  18. bearded_one75 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 25, 2002
    star 1
    What other series have films like TPM? (I've got T3 in mind here...) I'm sure there are a few out there where fans came out of the cinema's and said, "Wha...?" Taking T3 again, it's had similar response to both TPM & TMR - fans either love it or hate it. Some hated it before it even came out, citing a lack of one James Cameron. I personally liked it, especially the ending - how it set up the Machine War.
  19. Scott3eyez Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 1, 2001
    star 4
    >>> I'll start. As the topic at hand seems to revolve around humor, did anyone here find any humor at all in TMR? If so, how does it compare to the humor (if any) in the first Matrix. Finally, would you consider said humor to be better integrated in SW or The Matrix?

    Oh yeah- the Matrix?

    Well, the only bit I remember laughing at was when Neo gave Trinity a heart massage. But not in a good way?


    Gezvader28,

    >>> Well that sounds like a challenge - now it wouldn't be fair to compare the comedy in the OT to the comedy in TPM since the OT is 3 movies, but how about if we compare the comedy in ANH to TPM? How about if I post 5 examples from ANH and then you post 5 from TPM, and we let the readers decide. totally unscientific, but what the hell.

    You?re missing my point- I?m not particularly interested in spearheading an ?OT vs PT? comedy battle, and I think the funniest Star Wars moment is Han?s ?boring conversation anyway? conversation, which simply isn?t funny written down and out of context and simply doesn?t stand up to scrutiny. (Not that there?s a great deal of comedy that does, but that?s beside the point?)

    What I would like to see is anyone who is claiming the OT?s superiority posting some examples of the OT?s comedy and explaining why they like it- ie. someone praising the comedy of the OT instead of just belittling the PT.

    VCT,

    >>> Since 3eyes was trying to say that something that is more popular isn't necessarily better, he could have used far more effective and accurate examples in his analogy.

    Yeah, but that would involve more thinking and less typing. Not my style.

    And to misquote my favourite hippy, ?OK, so most analogies don?t bear up to close examination??

    8-}

    >>> On a different note, I do think the Mozart-to-Timberlake comparison works if you are comparing the OT (Mozart: classic, enduring appeal) to the PT (Timberlake: popular now, but who knows how popular years from now), even though the time frame is much narrower. Just my opinion/

    Well, if you want to carry on with drawing analogies of Star Wars films with musical works, I think the most appropriate way would be to take two distinct phases of a single artists career, where there has been a noticeable change in direction. I think Radiohead (pre/post Kid A), the Stone Roses 2 albums and the Beatles (pre/post Revolver) would be interesting bands to study and compare.

    This probably isn?t the thread for it though?
  20. TadjiStation Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2001
    star 4
    topgoalscorer_no11,

    You forgot to add "IN MY OPINION" to your post.

    Interesting that Durwood didn't call you on it either...

    Oh wait, he agrees with you! That's why...

    [face_plain]
  21. topgoalscorer_no11 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 23, 2001
    star 3
    I assume that people in here are intelligent enough to recognise an opinion when they see it.

    Any discussion is obviously subjective.

    However, on some points it's possible to feel strongly enough that adding 'imo' would simply detract from the point made rather than adding anything useful.

    In my opinion, of course. ;)

    If you disagree, Tadji_Station, that's fine and I'd like to hear why. I'm open to being persuaded if you think you're up to it.

    For the record, I quite enjoyed TMR's action scenes, and marvelled at the technical achievement, whilst at no point thinking it was anything other than a stupid film with soulless, emotionless, cardboard characters, terrible structure and badly written, platitude ridden dialogue.
  22. winter_chili Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2002
    star 5
    The orcale of delphi made predictions by breathing in the fumes of appolo and the when neo first meets the orace shes breahting in the fumes of the cookies and then the fumes of her cigarette

    interesting
  23. Green_Destiny_Sword Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 20, 2001
    star 4
    Well TMR makes no attempt to incorporate slapstick humor, but being the brilliant, well-rounded movie it is, it has much better ?funny moments? than TPM. For one you have Neo?s small moments like when, after fighting Seraph, and being told he fought just to make sure he was the one, Neo replies ?you could have just asked.? Morpheus has the same type of small light moments with Niobe.

    In the 4 viewings I have had of TMR, there has always been raucous laughter every time we see the scene of Link arriving home and saying ?Where?s my pu?? only to see Cass and her small children there in the house, much to his surprise. Link actually has a few great jokes throughout the film.

    But to me, the main humor came from 2 sources. The first is Smith. Not only does he turn in another awesome performance, his jokes when talking to his clones or Neo are on the money. He was hilarious. ?Mr. Anderson, still using all the muscles, except the most important one.? Or for example when he says ?Me, me, me?.? Followed by ?me too.? Even when he fixes his clone?s tie, you laugh.

    And then of course there is Merovingian, definitely one of the most bizarre and ultimately interesting characters in the saga. What can I say? Everything that comes out of this guy?s mouth is hilarious! He runs off a stream of French curses and says ?It is like wiping you?re a** with silk..? Come on! That is so twisted, you have to laugh (not to mention that is one of the best lines I have ever heard. I put it right up there with ?Leave the gun?take the canola? ?props to anyone who knows where that line is from BTW--). He is a complete scene stealer and I cannot wait to see more of him in TMRev.

    So yes, TMR humour exceeds TPM. In TPM everything I laughed at was unintentional. The jokes were never funny and Jar Jar, well he is the most hated character in movie history, so that says that.

    Although I have to admit I laughed much more during AOTC. The romance scenes were a complete joke as well as Yoda's 'Sonic the Hedgehog on LSD' nonsense.
  24. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    "For the record, I quite enjoyed TMR's action scenes, and marvelled at the technical achievement, whilst at no point thinking it was anything other than a stupid film with soulless, emotionless, cardboard characters, terrible structure and badly written, platitude ridden dialogue."

    i think you meant "TPM". easy mistake.
  25. Green_Destiny_Sword Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 20, 2001
    star 4
    TOPGOALSCORER-- After reading your posts, I can say, TPM is definitely for you.
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