So now the Matrix fans have their Phantom Menace?

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by sdj, May 18, 2003.

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  1. Cometgreen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2002
    star 4
    "TOPGOALSCORER-- After reading your posts, I can say, TPM is definitely for you."

    Because he writes intelligent posts that you seem to avoid responding to?

    TPM is a fun movie. Technically not a great movie, especially directing wise, but I had fun. TMR, on the other hand, was neither a fun or well made movie. The action scenes were pretty enjoyable, albeit too long for their own good.

    Yes yes, imo. ;)

    Cometgreen
  2. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    The orcale of delphi made predictions by breathing in the fumes of appolo and the when neo first meets the orace shes breahting in the fumes of the cookies and then the fumes of her cigarette

    interesting


    The only thing I find interesting are some of the absurd leaps people make to infuse The Matrix films with more depth than is warrented.

    And if you must know, since we seem to be basing a film's quality on anecdotal evidence, the theater was dead silent during my single viewing of TMR (which was one time too many). It just completely failed to engage the audience on any level. I remember a college kid sitting in the front row who whooped and hollered when the opening titles appeared. At the conclussion of the film, his enthusiasm was considerably subdued, but it was fun to watch him try really hard to convince himself that he had just seen the greatest film ever made when the abject disappointment was clearly evident on his face.

    So there you go. I thought TMR sucked and my personal experience when watching the movie validated my opinion. Whatever that's worth.
  3. Cometgreen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2002
    star 4
    "The only thing I find interesting are some of the absurd leaps people make to infuse The Matrix films with more depth than is warrented."

    I think that's unfair to say, Durwood. Quite a lot of us like to connect SW with very deep themes and ideas, many of which probably were not intended. Just because the directors didn't mean to place something in the film doesn't mean it isn't there.

    I think that's an interesting observation. It's very possible that the Wachowskis put that in there on purpose, but I think it was just her smelling the cookies. The cigarette may be going a little too far, though. ;)

    Cometgreen, who didn't know that cookies give off fumes :p
  4. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    And if you must know, since we seem to be basing a film's quality on anecdotal evidence, the theater was dead silent during my single viewing of TMR (which was one time too many). It just completely failed to engage the audience on any level. I remember a college kid sitting in the front row who whooped and hollered when the opening titles appeared. At the conclussion of the film, his enthusiasm was considerably subdued, but it was fun to watch him try really hard to convince himself that he had just seen the greatest film ever made when the abject disappointment was clearly evident on his face.

    So there you go. I thought TMR sucked and my personal experience when watching the movie validated my opinion. Whatever that's worth.


    i had the same experience with TPM and AOTC. not only that but people were laughing at the "drama" and groaning at the "comedy"

    for whatever that's worth.

    Durwood, didnt you start a thread about the deeper meaning of the "quiet as a tomb" line?

    talk about infusing unwarranted depth!
  5. JohnWilliams00 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 29, 2002
    star 4
    And if you must know, since we seem to be basing a film's quality on anecdotal evidence, the theater was dead silent during my single viewing of TMR (which was one time too many).

    But I've seen you say that you'll be checking out TMR one more time when it hits DVD. Admit it, you find The Matrix Reloaded irresistible. 8-}

    (I think TMR may play better on home viewings since you can skip scenes you don't like. Like how I skip 95% of TPM/AOTC.)
  6. JenX Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 26, 2002
    star 3
    topgoalscorer_no11


    Ah, but the Matrix Reloaded is a film which takes itself seriously...

    ...except for the times it doesn't (The Twins dead pan banter, Link's libido, the Merovingian delight in cursing in French, Persephone's digs at the notion of cause and effect, etc)...


    ...and fails to say anything meaningful in any way whatsoever.

    A patently false claim and a ridiculous exaggeration.

    It takes itself seriously, yet has less story and more completely redundant set pieces than in either PT film.

    I'd really like to know how you calculate the amount of "story" in a film; I mean, the TMR, TPM and AOTC are all stories...care to elaborate?

    I'd also be interested in seeing what your definition of "redundant" is, and what "set pieces" you felt were redundant in TMR.

    It purports to have philosophical elements, yet it's observations are mind-numbingly banal even by the standards of a Hollywood blockbuster.

    It doesn't just "purport" to have philosophical elements, it actually has them too.

    The encounter with the 'architect' and his pathetic pseudo intellectual ramblings...

    I love the way people use the word "pseudo" as some kind of quality rating. Hopefully you'll be able to explain what you consider to be the difference between intellectual and pseudo-intellectual, and how this applies to the architect scene.

    And of course - 'so, like we need machines, but like... they need us! No way, man!'

    And of course you made that line up. The nearest match I can find is when Neo says "So we need machines and they need us. Is that your point, Councillor?", which is concise and lacking in...like..."Bill and Ted"-isms.

    Anyone over the age of twenty who is impressed by the so-called 'philosophical' aspect of TMR needs further education - or even to perhaps just read a few books.


    I was impressed with the philosophical aspect of TMR and can't wait to see why you feel that I may need to "read a few books"; it appears you may be suggesting that my feelings are predicated on a lack of education, but I wouldn't want to think you were flaming people just because they happen to enjoy something you did not.

    I've read works by Aristotle, Plato, Aquinas, Sartre, Russell, Kant, Wittgenstein, Heidegger, Marx, Popper Hobbes, Skinner, Searle, Mill, Descartes and many others. I've written essays on mind-body dualism, the ontological argument for the existence of God, behaviourism (both philosophical and sociological), rule-utilitarianism, the falsification principle existentialism, philosopher kings, true scotsman, watches in the desert and clueless men in chinese rooms.

    So if you do feel that my being impressed with the philosophical aspect of TMR is somehow indicative of a lack of education, please feel free to show me how your education and reading is superior to my own.

    That invitation applies equally to anyone who thought that topgoalscorer_no11's post was intelligent and/or excellent.




    Durwood

    ...the theater was dead silent during my single viewing of TMR

    DrEvazan

    i had the same experience with TPM and AOTC. not only that but people were laughing at the "drama" and groaning at the "comedy"


    When I saw TPM I was sat behind two behaviourists. At the end of the film, the first one turned to the other and said "That was awful for you, how was it for me?"

    **Rimshot**

    [face_mischief] [face_laugh] [face_mischief]

  7. winter_chili Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2002
    star 5
    the oracle in the matrix and the oracle of delphi both have "Know Thyself" Above there doors

    and both oracles are over 50 but under 70

    thats interesting too
  8. Cometgreen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2002
    star 4
    JenX, I think what topgoalscorer was trying to say is that there are a ton of better philosophical works than TMR. If you thought that it was mindblowing, than you have no idea what is really out there. Basically, TMR isn't the best, deepest, most insightful, most philosophical work out there. There are many more, many better insights of human behavior than TMR.

    I don't think your level of intelligence should factor into your definition of a good movie, or else some of you will start with that whole "You didn't like it cause you're stupid!" argument. And how do you fit "imo" in there? ?[face_plain]

    I still say that it is a movie form of a "Philosophy 101" class. I think, in the end, the Wachowskis just want to look smart. But they need to learn that throwing intellect into a script doesn't necessarily make it good.

    Cometgreen
  9. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    Durwood, didnt you start a thread about the deeper meaning of the "quiet as a tomb" line?

    talk about infusing unwarranted depth!


    ;)
  10. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    But I've seen you say that you'll be checking out TMR one more time when it hits DVD. Admit it, you find The Matrix Reloaded irresistible.

    No, I've said I might check it out, if there's nothing better to watch (and at this point, I might find Legally Blonde 2 more entertaining than Reloaded!) And I can guarentee you I won't see Revolutions in the theater. That one's a definite dollar rental.
  11. gezvader28 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2003
    star 4
    Scott-
    What I would like to see is anyone who is claiming the OT?s superiority posting some examples of the OT?s comedy and explaining why they like it- ie. someone praising the comedy of the OT instead of just belittling the PT.

    Okay.

    1.The chess game:
    THREEPIO:He made a fair move, screaming about it can't help you.
    HAN: Let him have it. It's not wise to upset a Wookie.
    THREEPIO: But Sir, nobody worries about upsetting a droid.
    HAN: That's because a droid don't pull people's arms out of their sockets when they lose. Wookies are known to do that.
    (Chewie strokes back his hair)
    THREEPIO: I see your point sir. I suggest a new strategy Artoo, let the Wookie win.
    (Chewie roars in agreement.)

    Well what can I say. Chewie's reaction. And 3po's last line - a catchphrase since the movie came out. And what imagery - haven't we all wanted to see Chewie do what Han says he can do! The audience immediately love Chewie after this.



    2.On the Death Star:
    LUKE: Uh....Threepio, hand me those binders there will you? (moves toward Chewie) Okay, now I'm going to put these on you...
    (Chewie lets out a hideous growl, Luke sheepishly hands the binders to Han.)
    LUKE: Ah....okay, Han,? you?.you put those binders on him....

    Luke's reaction to Chewie's roar is so perfect, brilliantly performed and edited.

    3.
    HAN: Absolutely, your worship. Look , I had everything under control until you led us down here! You know it's not gonna take 'em long to figure out what happened to us.
    LEIA: It could be worse.
    ( a loud horrible moan echoes throughout the chamber)
    HAN: It's worse.

    Han's last line always gets a great laugh. Beautifully timed.

    4.
    HAN: Look your worshipfullness, I take orders from just one person, me!
    LEIA: It's a wonder you're still alive. (looks at Chewie) Will somebody get this big walking carpet out of my way!
    HAN: No reward is worth this.

    Now can anyone honestly say they don't laugh whenever they see this scene , or even just thinking about it. It's terrific, after many scenes of sharp-witted sniping between Han and Leia this is one of the best. It's so delightful, Leia is really funny. Here they are - surrounded by the Empire and they're arguing and barely getting through , the chemistry is buzzing , their reactions are so typically human. And the spark between Han and Leia really comes across.

    5.
    LUKE: So, what do you think of her, Han?
    HAN: I?m trying not to kid.
    LUKE: (under his breath) Good?.
    HAN: Still?she?s got a lot of spirit. I don?t know ? do you think a princess and a guy like me?
    LUKE: No! (Luke looks away, Han smiles).

    This exchange really catches Luke out, his feelings are betrayed, we can all relate to the jealousy shown here by Luke. Another great character moment.

    For me the humor element is so well designed and executed in ANH, the actors obviously have great chemistry, it's appropriate to each scene, it informs us of the characters, stirs their relationships, adds to the action, and connects the characters to the audience. Plus - it's VERY funny!

    And there?s plenty more great scenes with Han, Luke and Leia. And then there?s the Droids too.
    The humor complements the characters, the action, the story.
    Whereas in TPM ? it?s nearly all JJB and his desperately unfunny slapstick . The humor is almost never used to add dimension to the main characters (such as Anakin, Padme or Obi) or to add spark to their relationships . It seems to me that Lucas has decided that comedy is just an element, it doesn?t complement the story. It?s inserted. in TPM it?s mostly buffonery and it?s mostly for one character, JJB.
    Result: failure.
    IMO


    g

  12. JenX Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 26, 2002
    star 3
    Cometgreen

    JenX, I think what topgoalscorer was trying to say is that there are a ton of better philosophical works than TMR.

    Then he should have said that, rather then explicitly stating that;

    "Anyone over the age of twenty who is impressed by the so-called 'philosophical' aspect of TMR needs further education - or even to perhaps just read a few books."

    The idea that, with the benefit of a little more education, the scales will fall off people's eyes and that they will then see TMR for what it really is is a laughable as it is patronising.


    If you thought that it was mindblowing, than you have no idea what is really out there.

    It impressed me. I liked the way it presented and explore the ideas of casuality, identity, free will and determinism. Hearing a sentient computer programme expounding the belief that choice is an illusion and that everyone is a slave to casuality makes me smile. I love the way that Morpheus gets the rug pulled out from beneath his feet, the idea that the "rebels" are just as much agents of control as the Agents themsleves...I think it shows a great deal of intelligence and confidence on the part of the Wachowski brothers, but I'm not so arrogant as to believe that those who don't agree with me need to go away and do some reading to "correct" their mistaken views.

    I don't think your level of intelligence should factor into your definition of a good movie, or else some of you will start with that whole "You didn't like it cause you're stupid!" argument.

    I agree, which is why I find statements like

    Anyone over the age of twenty who is impressed by the so-called 'philosophical' aspect of TMR needs further education - or even to perhaps just read a few books.

    and
    If you thought that it was mindblowing, than you have no idea what is really out there.


    so ridiculous, as they both presume that the person's positive reaction to TMR is inexplicably linked to a lack of knowledge/learning on their part.

  13. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    It seems to me that Lucas has decided that comedy is just an element, it doesn?t complement the story. It?s inserted.

    you have hit upon the big problem with the PT: everything is inserted and nothing flows out of natural exchanges between characters. Obi and Anakins friendship, the love story, midichlorians, all the major story points feel like they have been added in after everything else. the most important parts of the PT all feel like an afterthought. what a mess.
  14. Green_Destiny_Sword Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 20, 2001
    star 4
    And let us not forget that COMETGREEN does not provide one example of the great philosphical works he is talking about that are os much better than TMR. But as usual everyone who talks about things being "pseudo-intellectual" have ZERO examples of intellectual works to provide.
  15. Cometgreen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2002
    star 4
    I was about to name some of my favorite philosophers, but since TMR is more of a melting pot of philosophies, I decided to put it up against something similar:

    The Simpsons and Philosophy. ;)

    It's a great book that uses the Simpsons as a way of examining life. It primarily connects the Simpsons characters with past philosophy works, from Aristotle to Nietzsche.

    But the thing I love about this book is that it proves that something can look so simple and be so entertaining, yet include layers and layers of depth. In this case, the Simpsons. I think SW is another example. TMR, on the other hand, puts philosophy first, and filmmaking/entertainment second. It spoonfeeds you basic philosophy without giving you your OWN choice as to how you want to look at the movie. There are hundreds of films/shows that have balanced the entertainment and the depth very well. TMR, imo, fails. The original Matrix had nice balance, as the messages it conveyed were effectively shown through the characters, as opposed to being repeatedly explained by the characters.

    Cometgreen
  16. AdamBertocci Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2002
    star 7
    To respond to gezvader's examples of funniness:

    1.The chess game
    Funny stuff. Agreed.
    And what imagery - haven't we all wanted to see Chewie do what Han says he can do!
    There are a LOT of people in 3SA who for some reason think it's gonna happen.
    The audience immediately love Chewie after this.
    Umm... okay.

    2. The binders thing.

    Never actually noticed much about Luke's reaction. I think the roar itself is funny enough though.


    3. It's worse.

    I've never found this funny at all. Whatever.


    4. The 'walking carpet' scene.

    I don't find this FUNNY - more like 'amusing'. (Does this make sense?) I don't actually find the lines funny, but I get a kick out of Leia's spunk. And that makes it work for me. Just in a different way than for you. And that's fine.


    5. "Princess and a guy like me"

    Agreed, genuinely funny. Although I liked it better in the context that ANH seemed to be heading in, which was to have Luke end up with Leia; this would mean that Han is just jerking Luke's chain. Hence his final grin.

    (I'm a Luke-Leia [face_love]-supporter, a road which ESB and ROTJ... particularly ROTJ, natch... did not head down. Hey, no big deal, not my story.)


    Rick McCallum loves you!
  17. Darth_Insidious Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2002
    star 4
    Another line I love, when Han's running to the cockpit to pilot the Falcon out of the "asteroid" and Leia starts bothering him.

    HAN: No time to discuss this in a committee!

    LEIA: I am not a committee!
  18. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    The original Matrix had nice balance, as the messages it conveyed were effectively shown through the characters, as opposed to being repeatedly explained by the characters.

    again, sounds like the PT to me, seems like every scene in the PT is either a information diatribe (midis, senate scenes, council scenes, love senes, Palpatines scenes) or action for the sake of breaking up the dialogue. if you have a problem with TMR, the same problems are only magnified in the PT.

  19. Cometgreen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2002
    star 4
    Are you some how expecting exposition without any dialogue at all? All of those scenes you mentioned were, at most, 2 minutes in length, and all of them cover several aspects of the story as well as conveying the more dominant themes. Only the midichlorian scene stops the movie, but it is perhaps the most important scene you listed. All of the others drive the story forward. You think the OT has an absence of these type of scenes?

    Cometgreen
  20. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    Are you some how expecting exposition without any dialogue at all?

    wow thats a complete straw man, but would you care to apply that same question to TMR?

    no i am not expecting no dialogue, i am expecting, as you expect from TMR, scenes where information flows naturally out of character interaction, and relationships between characters that are evident from their behavior and not simply because it is in the dialogue. if you have a problem with too much exposition, i wonder how you can like the PT thus far, as it is LOADED with expository pipe, where nothing is happening other than people talking, talking, talking. on top of that, the dialogue is awful, attempting to sound "reserved", but ends up sounding unskilled, clumsy and immature.


    also, your two minute estimate for the scenes is off by a longshot.
  21. Cometgreen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2002
    star 4
    What I'm trying to say is that TMR stops the story all together to give you a lesson on philosophy. How does Neo's talk with the Chancellor advance the story? How does 75% of what the Oracle talks about advance the story? How does the Merovingan lesson advance the story? The Oracle verbally introduces the theme of choices, and the Merovingian verbally introduces the theme of cause/effect, both of which are regurgitated a few times.

    Now yes, the midichlorian scene stops the movie as well, but it was rather necessary. I think it would have worked better if they had did it while they were on the Queen's ship, but it's not my call.

    Cometgreen, going to check the length of the above scenes...
  22. TadjiStation Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2001
    star 4
    To respnd in a general fashion to some issues brought up in the last couple of pages:

    topgoalscorer,

    Of course we can all agree that what we discuss here is in the contect of opinion. However, to go about fiating an idea as absolute fact (in this case, the lack of ANY quality in TMR because it displeased you) is simply inappropriate. Statements as hard edged as yours should be prefaced with the opinion comment, in order to avoid any confusion with posters that can lead to flaming.

    Further, comments regarding the intelligence of those who liked TMR (JenX brought up a few tasty ones of yours) are most definitely inappropriate. A mod will be quickly summoned by yours truly if I see it again. The fun of this forum is the ability to discuss different viewpoints, not the posters themselves.

    Now that that's out of the way, I will post, as briefly as possible, my personal take on this matter.

    From the persoective of a filmmaker, I'd say the Wachowski's are on top of their game, while Lucas is struggling in areas.

    Based upon the script of The Matrix and TMR, as well as the competence of the direction, the editing and the performances (yes including Reeves - even though it is stiff), I'd say they know exactly what they're doing. I personally find the presentation of information through dialogue and action most interesting. To me, everything forwards Neo's journey. Further, I like the story. A good story really helps a movie along. When in the hands of a good director(s), like the Wachowskis, magic really happens.

    This, unfortunately, is where Lucas is weak. His story is fine, as far as I'm concerned. It's the way he's chosen to show it that I have a problem with. The acting is generally unconvicing (admittedly some performances are better than others, but NONE of them are great shakes - IMHO! ;) ), the script a few turns away from a real polished version, and the direction is shoddy (as is the editing). Lucas can't get a real performance out of his actors to save his life, but then again, he doesn't seem to think he has to, he's still intent on dazzling us with the latest in technical filmmaking. Bad Move, buddy! :p

    Jar Jar is a prime example of this. There were plenty of times that I was convinced that I was looking at a real flesh and blood character, and that's a great thing, but that's not really Lucas, that's his FX team. Where Lucas steps in results in JJB's patently stupid characterization, full of annoyance and failed attempts at humor (scatalogical references anyone)? FEH!

    Just my $.02, again (and again and again and again...)

    :)
  23. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    "Bottom line: If Lucas didn't think establishing their friendhship was important, he would not have included the scene."

    I didn't mean to imply that he didn't care, simply that it wasn't very high on his "to-do" list to begin with. Gotta get all that pretty CGI and doctored soundtrack stuff done first. ;)

    "The only thing I find interesting are some of the absurd leaps people make to infuse The Matrix films with more depth than is warrented."

    "I think that's unfair to say, Durwood. Quite a lot of us like to connect SW with very deep themes and ideas, many of which probably were not intended. Just because the directors didn't mean to place something in the film doesn't mean it isn't there."

    Agreed. Considering all the sources of literature Lucas went through to get his "universal themes" for the Saga, it's amazing how far he tries to run away from acknowledging them in interviews. Why not acknowledge the influences of his films? (especially the ones that Bad radio accuses him of copying outright. :p )

    "Durwood, didnt you start a thread about the deeper meaning of the "quiet as a tomb" line?

    talk about infusing unwarranted depth!"


    ;)

    That would have been a great opportunity for "from a certain point of view." [face_laugh]
  24. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    The original Matrix had nice balance, as the messages it conveyed were effectively shown through the characters, as opposed to being repeatedly explained by the characters.

    Bingo.
  25. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    "The original Matrix had nice balance, as the messages it conveyed were effectively shown through the characters, as opposed to being repeatedly explained by the characters."

    While I've not seen TMR, I would agree with that assessment. Then again, I feel the OT does this as well, whereas the PT does not (or, in an effort to "maintain mystery", doesn't explain anything of significance until Ep.III, if at all.)
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