So now the Matrix fans have their Phantom Menace?

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by sdj, May 18, 2003.

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  1. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
  2. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    Finding Nemo is now the top toon of all-time.

  3. Darth_Insidious Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2002
    star 4
    Snow White is the top toon of all time. :p
  4. winter_chili Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2002
    star 5
    Spirited Away > Finding Nemo
  5. gezvader28 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2003
    star 4
    Cometgreen
    Anakin, after telling Padme that he will stop people from dying, begins cutting up Geonosian after Geonosian. After promising his mother that he will never fail again, he fails his infultration of Geonosis. After Padme telling Anakin she doesn't want to start a war, unwittingly starts a galactic war that will enslave her people years down the road.

    I always found that scene pretty strange. I mean not long before it we have Anakin's big confession scene, he's all guilt-ridden 'cos he's murdered loads of Tuskens, Padme is shocked. Then not long after they arrive on Geonosis, she tells him she doesn't want to start a war, next thing you know he's carving up Geonosians left and right before they've even fired a shot, he doesn't even bother with defensive moves first. And he's the invader! What happened to all the guilt about losing control?
    And then the next time we see them together she's declaring her undying love for him. Eh? Where did that come from? Maybe the sight of Anakin murdering people turns her on.
    What are we to make of it?
    The scene doesn't fit, it makes a mockery of Anakin's guilt-ridden confession. We know it was added to speed up the pace, but where's the consideration for the characters or the drama?

    I just found it incredibly hokey. "Look, the villain we all was sure died in the last film is back! Yay!" I just get irritated when storytellers can't let go of their characters, even though it's their decision to kill them off in the first place. In SW, Obiwan didn't suddenly come back in ESB, or at the very end of ANH; it was immediately shown that his spirit lived on.

    I might agree with you if it were someone like Cypher, but Smith is a program, why shouldn't he come back?

    As for there being a sequel - when I saw Matrix in '99 I immediately thought there'd be a sequel, it was very much like the end of ANH - the rebels had found a champion with special powers and had won a major victory over the bad guys, but we still hadn't met the top villain and the bad guys were still in control, they were bound to have a counter-attack.


    g

  6. JenX Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 26, 2002
    star 3
    Cometgreen

    >>>And do you think the end of The Matrix did? Yeah, Neo might well start to show people "the truth" but that still leaves the rather gigantic question of how do you free five billion people, and how do stop the machines from killing you all afterwards.<<<

    I just find it hard that Smith, who is all but a piece of code, could control a human in real life. I can kind of understand that Smith downloaded his entire "consciousness" into that guy, and so he wakes up he wants to kill Neo, but he seems to know exactly how he should do it.

    I'm not sure that Smith is "controlling" that guy, I think Smith "is" that guy, he has downloaded himself onto the guys brain, and is now Smith in the flesh...although I can see a case for thinking that some part of the guys original personality remains. And I don't understand why it is hard to believe that he knows "exactly" how to kill Neo. "Grab a knife and stab him" doesn't seem to complicated ;)

    "Look, the villain we all was sure died in the last film is back! Yay!" I just get irritated when storytellers can't let go of their characters, even though it's their decision to kill them off in the first place.

    Firstly, Smith wasn't "killed". That was an inaccurate assumption on your part (although you are by no means the only one who assumed that). So the storytellers aren't guilt of bringing back a dead character. Secondly, as I (think) we agree, Smith and his new abilities look like they are going to play an important part in the last film, so what happened to Smith at the end of The Matrix was necessary to get make him the "pesron" he is in TMR.

    In SW, Obiwan didn't suddenly come back in ESB, or at the very end of ANH; it was immediately shown that his spirit lived on.

    Smith and Gandalf. What a pair of drama queens! ;) [face_laugh]

    Jabba-wocky

    But then on the other hand, most who thought they were fans of the Matrix series wouldn't call themselves that after seeing Reloaded.

    Man, I wish these forums had an eyerolling emoticon...

    So, Jabba-wocky, lets see the figures that back up this ridiculous assertion.

    Tell me how many people thought they were fans of the Matrix series before seeing Reloaded, and then tell me how many of those people call themselves fans of the Matrix series after seeing Reloaded. Then show me how you collected these figures.

    Or you could just admit you made that up in a transparent attempt to give your opinion a bit more weight.

    :)

    For instance, Neo vs. 100 Agent Smiths. It is physically impossible for any more thna about ten people to have access to you all at once.

    Not true, but anyway...

    And surely enough, about ninety of those Agent Smiths just spent their time standing on the roof yelling.

    You know, I really don't like saying stuff like "Did you see the same film as me???"...but, did you see the same film as me??? That is just absolute nonsense. There isn't even anything to argue about here, you are just flat out wrong.

    I rarely ever tell people that they are flat out wrong; I am Ms "everyone is entitled to their own opinion" but, seriously, you are just wrong.

    So why make such a glaringly awful shot (the CGI stood out there too much)...

    Yeah, the CG was a bit ropey at times...

    ...for something that's not even logical/practical in the first place?

    Because it helps show what an incredible fighter Neo is. Because it shows that Smith's ability to replicate himself is (apparently) limitless (or maybe just limited to the 6 billion odd human programmes he can overwrite). Because it was a nice riposte to the Kung Fu films where guys only attack one at a time. Because logic and practicality don't really apply (in this case) when you are inside a viral programme operating inside a computer programme.

    There was really no reason for Neo to stay that long, as he could have flown off at any moment, including from the first sign of trouble. Instead, he decides to engage in a fight that achieves little in terms of the
  7. winter_chili Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2002
    star 5
    There was really no reason for Neo to stay that long, as he could have flown off at any moment, including from the first sign of trouble. Instead, he decides to engage in a fight that achieves little in terms of the overall story arc. It didn't even seem there was a reason for him to stay that long.


    The point of the fight is purpose, Neo tried to take it from smith, smith tried to take it from neo so Neo responds, Neo stays because hes trying to kill smith or at least beat the living crap out of him as much as possible

    Moreover, Neo's ability to destroy the hunter/seekers just seemed to be another case of escalating powers. If you're going to present a problem that the main characters must solve, the larger part of things should be the main character learning how to solve it, not getting special powers to do so at exactly the right moment. Otherwise, there won't be much tension to the film in the long run.


    Neo didnt get more power, he just got the same power he had in the matrix in the "real" world



  8. Cometgreen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2002
    star 4
    "Firstly, Smith wasn't "killed". That was an inaccurate assumption on your part (although you are by no means the only one who assumed that). So the storytellers aren't guilt of bringing back a dead character."

    Yeah, Smith exploding into millions of green bits obviously means he's still alive. ;)

    "Secondly, as I (think) we agree, Smith and his new abilities look like they are going to play an important part in the last film, so what happened to Smith at the end of The Matrix was necessary to get make him the "pesron" he is in TMR."

    Yes, we do. I admit that all of my bitching could be laughed at in a few months with Revolutions, but the Wachowskis were so full of themselves that they thought they could do both at the same time. They should have just gone by normal Hollywood procedure, that way they can learn from any mistakes they make (which I feel is a lot). I just don't think Reloaded is a movie to begin with; it's merely a setup for Revolutions. It has no beginning, middle, or end. The actual story doesn't kick in until the last twenty minutes. Before that, it's simply setting up the characters for the next installment.

    "Smith and Gandalf. What a pair of drama queens!"

    Of course. Oh well, at least they're wicked cool to begin with. ;)

    Cometgreen
  9. winter_chili Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2002
    star 5
    Yeah, Smith exploding into millions of green bits obviously means he's still alive.


    If getting mowed down by a frickin mini gun didnt kill him why would him getting blown up?
  10. Cometgreen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2002
    star 4
    Because it was all ready shown that bullets can't kill them. Having a guy frickin jumping inside of you and disecting your code or whatever is quite different.

    I just think it makes little sense, as if Neo just killed the human instead of the program, how is that different from tearing Agents up with miniguns and the like? Why would the Agents need an upgrade, as their only fear should be that Neo's mind is free, so he can't be killed from inside the Matrix. A new brand of agent won't change that. In fact, if the agents were smart, they would distract Neo even more so that the Sentinels could kill his real body.

    Cometgreen
  11. bearded_one75 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 25, 2002
    star 1
    One little thing that's been bothering me about the whole world of the Matrix:

    [nitpick]I assume that there are numerous power units scattered all around earth in the Real World, connected by fibre-op networks or similar, because the atmosphere is too unstable for radio transmissions to get very far. So, how do the rebels transmit their signal into the Matrix? That radio signal has got to go through hundreds of meters, if not kilometers, of rock, metal and rebarred concrete (which is the one material guaranteed to screw up your reception). You'd need an incredibly powerful transmitter for that, which needs an incredibly powerful energy source that would be too small to cram into the Neb's hull, etc.

    And if they're broadcasting such a powerful (and presumably wide) signal, all the time, why don't the sentinels just trace the signal back to it's source straightaway?[/nitpick]


    Other than that, great movies so far. So Reloaded just dragged on a bit; Big Deal! Durwood, could you Free Your Mind for me a bit, and compare T2 and TMR for me please?
  12. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    Brutal? Maybe. Accurate? Absolutely!
  13. qui-gon-kim Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 19, 2001
    star 4
    I mean not long before it we have Anakin's big confession scene, he's all guilt-ridden 'cos he's murdered loads of Tuskens, Padme is shocked. Then not long after they arrive on Geonosis, she tells him she doesn't want to start a war, next thing you know he's carving up Geonosians left and right before they've even fired a shot, he doesn't even bother with defensive moves first. And he's the invader! What happened to all the guilt about losing control?


    Hoards of hostile Geonosians are bearing down on them, Anakin was acting in self defense. In ROTJ, Luke also hacked and slashed Jabba's crew in the sail barge before they even fired a shot. Why not bring Luke to task for that?
  14. rgard32 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2003
    star 1
    WOW....all this MATRIX talk on a Star Wars board....i LOVE IT ....hehehe..









  15. jabba_the_nut Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 17, 2003
    star 2
    >One little thing that's been bothering me about the whole world of the Matrix:[...]

    I think this is one of those things where we can just say that it's scifi and we don't understand how their technology works.

    Personally, I wonder why they bothered to build a Matrix at all, if all the machines are after are the people's BTUs. Let them lay there and rot as vegetables, or lobotomize them; what difference would it make? (Uh, because then we wouldn't have a movie...)

    Oh, and to everyone: please don't impugn the Star Wars Holiday Special by comparing it to TMR.
  16. JenX Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 26, 2002
    star 3
    Durwood

    Brutal? Maybe. Accurate? Absolutely!

    Excellent. Jabba-Wocky hasn't come back and justified some of his more ludicrous assertions yet, so it's good to see someone else prepared to stand by them.

    So Durwood, since you think Jabba-Wocky's post was "absolutely" accurate, maybe you can tell me when TMR shows 90 of the 100 Agent Smiths just standing around on the roof shouting for the duration the Neo v Smiths fight.

    While you're at it, maybe you can produce the data which proves Jabba-Wocky's assertion that most people who thought they were fans of the Matrix series wouldn't call themselves that after seeing Reloaded.

    Now I realise that this would require more time and effort then it takes to type "Great post [insert name here]!", and I have read DrEvazan's NOTE TO ALL POSTERS on page 86 of this thread, but hope does triumph over experience sometimes :)

    Cometgreen

    >>>Firstly, Smith wasn't "killed". That was an inaccurate assumption on your part (although you are by no means the only one who assumed that). So the storytellers aren't guilt of bringing back a dead character.<<<

    Yeah, Smith exploding into millions of green bits obviously means he's still alive.

    Well, yeah, it does. Like I said, you assumed that it "killed" him. You were wrong :p


    I just don't think Reloaded is a movie to begin with; it's merely a setup for Revolutions. It has no beginning, middle, or end. The actual story doesn't kick in until the last twenty minutes. Before that, it's simply setting up the characters for the next installment.

    What is "the actual story"? Aren't there lots of different "stories" in TMR? One story deals with Neo's visions of Trinity's "death". This story kicks in at the start of the film and has a definite beginning, middle and end. What about the story of Zion and the upcoming attack? That is introduced at the beginning of the film, and is developed throughout.

    The fact that many of the stories might be brought to a resolution in Revolutions doesn't mean that TMR is just a set up for the next installment, anymore then TESB is "just a set up" for ROTJ or TTT is for ROTK.


    Why would the Agents need an upgrade, as their only fear should be that Neo's mind is free, so he can't be killed from inside the Matrix. A new brand of agent won't change that. In fact, if the agents were smart, they would distract Neo even more so that the Sentinels could kill his real body.

    Neo isn't the only rebel trying to free minds. The Agents might need upgrading to deal with all the other fighters running around the Matrix. The three upgraded Agents seem to have been sent to deal with the meeting of rebels, and as Trinity was able to temperarily take one of the old ones out, it makes sense that you would send better versions to such a meeting, so as to capture/kill as many of the higher ranking captains as you could.

    (Note that throughout TMR, the upgraded Agents agenda never seems to be directed against Neo; They appear surprised to see him at the start of the film, wondering whether they should proceed, and later on they attack Morpheus, Trinity and the Keymaker).
  17. winter_chili Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2002
    star 5
    is there a single person in the universe who likes tmr and lotr and the pt? (besides me)
  18. gezvader28 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2003
    star 4
    QGK-
    Hoards of hostile Geonosians are bearing down on them, Anakin was acting in self defense. In ROTJ, Luke also hacked and slashed Jabba's crew in the sail barge before they even fired a shot. Why not bring Luke to task for that?

    Luke had already been thrown into a Rancor pit, he was walked out over the Sarlacc,then Jabba sentenced him and his friends to death, Jabba's men were firing at him from the sail barge and the other skiff, I think it was safe for Luke to assume they meant to kill him!

    Anakin on the other hand was approached by a Geonosian and sliced him up before he knew who he was , none of them fired a shot or hit him before he killed one of them. He's the invader, he's been asked not to start a war, what does he do..? Even if he suspects the Geonosians of being up to no good he doesn't know if it's these geonosians. He doesn't even try defensive moves like a Force-push first, just slices 'em up. Cue another tearful confession... :p

    I don't know how you can seriously compare those 2 situations.

    g
  19. rgard32 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2003
    star 1
    I do winter-Chili.. u can see my signature..that kinda says it all..


    There are parts that i hate about the PT..(mainly the kiddie stuff) but overall i like star wars...i saw it in 77......BUT i also LOVE matrix..and LOTR series.....hell i love it all....


    But like anyone here i could pick apart anyone of these movies......

  20. qui-gon-kim Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 19, 2001
    star 4
    Anakin on the other hand was approached by a Geonosian and sliced him up before he knew who he was

    That is totally false. A hoard of Geonosians are swarming towards Anakin and Padme, one of them brandishing a weapon and charging at them, intending to harm them, and Anakin slices him. Anakin is totally justified in his actions, as he doesn't actively persue the Geonosians and attack them. He's running away or standing his ground, and attacks them when they charge at him. What's he supposed to do,
    just stand there defenseless while they attack him?
  21. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    Obi-wan did it in ANH. ;)
  22. bearded_one75 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 25, 2002
    star 1
    I like them all as well, winter_chili, and all of the Terminator series!
  23. openmind Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2003
    star 4
    That is totally false. A hoard of Geonosians are swarming towards Anakin and Padme, one of them brandishing a weapon and charging at them, intending to harm them, and Anakin slices him. Anakin is totally justified in his actions, as he doesn't actively persue the Geonosians and attack them. He's running away or standing his ground, and attacks them when they charge at him. What's he supposed to do,
    just stand there defenseless while they attack him?


    True :)

    Unless, we were supposed to shed a tear when a Genosian was crushed, or stabbed by the Acklay. :p

  24. Leto II Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2000
    star 6
  25. Leto II Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2000
    star 6
    ...And there was even a thread in the AOTC forum last summer entitled, "Nexu Dying Start You Crying?", or something like that...


    [face_laugh]
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