PT So Obi-Wan defeated Darth Maul and Darth Vader (in his prime!) what does that say about him?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Jedi_Lantern, Jan 12, 2016.

Moderators: heels1785, Seagoat
  1. Billy_Dee_Binks Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 29, 2002
    star 4
    It makes sense he was bested by Dooku, since Dooku taught Qui-Gon, and Qui-Gon taught Obi. So Dooku was a step ahead, knowing what moves to anticipate, and essentially toying with Kenobi. Dooku was only defeated once Anakin tapped into his rage and deviated from that line of Jedi teachings.
  2. Rachel_In_Red Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 12, 2013
    star 3
    I think Obi-Wan is the most honorable character in the SW saga.
  3. Baks Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 30, 2003
    star 1
    Not really.

    I really don't like his actions of letting Anakin burn on Mustafar, that was quite cruel. He should have either just simply saved him or killed Anakin, rather than what Obi did.

    I also have a big problem with him lying to Luke about what happened to Anakin in ANH.

    Had not Luke confronted Vader in Empire, I don't think either Obi or Yoda where ever planning on telling him the truth about Anakin being his father.
  4. Rachel_In_Red Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 12, 2013
    star 3

    Everyone in the SW universe is a flawed character. I said I think he's the most honorable, not perfect. He was also confronted with tougher situations than most other characters.
    LadyZ and mihaitzateo like this.
  5. mihaitzateo Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Oct 5, 2015
    star 3
    :)
    A nice observation.
    I do remember when Obi Wan is telling Anakin, in Episode II:
    "And you learn your place young one."
  6. Alexrd Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    It means Sith Lords are indeed his speciality.

    [IMG]
  7. Rachel_In_Red Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 12, 2013
    star 3

    Except for Dooku. Boy, he had Obi-Wan's number.
  8. bizzbizz Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2015
    star 3
    obi wan is close to the perfect definition of what a jedi should be. he beat anakin and maul with his brain and that's what sets him apart from others. other then yoda no one is as wise as obi wan. in a straight fight he loses too both anakin and maul but with his intellect he beats both
  9. mihaitzateo Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Oct 5, 2015
    star 3
    Actually, when Master Yoda goes to defeat Darth Sidious in Revenge of the Sith his mind is clouded by how cocky he is.
    Obi Wan is most persuasive of all the Jedi masters.
    Master Yoda says:
    "A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack."

    But is actually Obi Wan which is best example of how to use the Force for defense.
  10. Jester J Binks Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 19, 2016
    star 3
    Unfortunately it says OB1 doesn't finish what he started as both survived :p

    Loved OB1, but I think there was some intent to actually make him somewhat flawed as Anakin's master. That's why the QGJ/OB1 relationship was necessary to watch. QGJ would both admonish OB1, while at the same time give him the "I hear what you are saying" nod.

    Not that it is OB1's fault, but OB1 took the "you aren't right in the head" approach with Anakin on Mustafar, which is a road that guarantees a confrontation, instead of going down the road of asking Anakin how he could help. The fact that Palpatine could feign a helping hand was his in. Palps talked about Anakin becoming a great jedi knight, which is exactly what QGJ told OB1.

    OB1 had a flawed pupil, but he shares some of the blame. He's pretty handy with a lightsaber, just not in making sure his foe has met their final defeat.
  11. Alexrd Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    He simply wasn't being greedy and wanted Anakin to have some fun as well. He also would have gone against Sidious had Yoda not said no. The Sith were lucky.

    Anyway, back to serious discussion...

    Obi-Wan simply couldn't finish Anakin off due to his emotional attachment to him. The scene itself made it very explicit.
  12. bhagavandas Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 21, 2016
    star 1
    If you guys excuse me, I didnt find a appropriate place to ask, if don't here. But, where Obi Wan failed to train Anakin? I see Ani criticizing his Master a lot in AotC, about don't giving him space for him to grow, don't listen to him and so for.

    What you guys think? Obi Wan was never prepared to have a padawan?

    Enviado de meu XT1563 usando Tapatalk
  13. Alexrd Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    He didn't.
  14. bhagavandas Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 21, 2016
    star 1
    Tell me more about this

    Enviado de meu XT1563 usando Tapatalk
  15. Alexrd Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    Not sure I understand your comment. He didn't fail him.
  16. Baks Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 30, 2003
    star 1

    That's contrary to what Obi says though.

    He admits first in ROTS near the end of the duel, "I have failed you Anakin, I have failed you."

    Secondly he says to Luke in ROTJ that he thought he could train Anakin as a Jedi and he admits he failed.

    The movies don't support your opinion at all.
    bhagavandas likes this.
  17. bhagavandas Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 21, 2016
    star 1
    I mean, Obi Wan was ready to have a padawan? He did all good? He didn't fail in his training?

    Enviado de meu XT1563 usando Tapatalk
  18. Alexrd Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    Obi-Wan says it because he felt responsible for him. We, the audience, know that Anakin's actions and failures were not Obi-Wan's fault.

    The movies show that his tutelage had nothing to do with it.

    On the contrary, the movies do support my stance.


    He was a Jedi Knight, so he's able to have a Padawan.

    No, he didn't. Anakin, due to his attachment and fear of loss, was the one who failed Obi-Wan, the Jedi and himself.
    bhagavandas likes this.
  19. The_Phantom_Calamari Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 10, 2011
    star 4

    Alexrd, I like you, but I have to say I find your steadfast desire to paint most of the Jedi characters from the PT as having no substantive character arcs to be quite baffling. Especially coming from a fellow PT defender.

    It's okay for good people to make mistakes and have failures.
    Last edited by The_Phantom_Calamari, Jan 11, 2017
  20. Alexrd Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    It's perfectly okay. It's simply not the case here. Where exactly did Obi-Wan fail Anakin? The movies don't present us any failure on his part as far as teaching Anakin. Anakin was the one who failed Obi-Wan.

    Also, I've no "desire" to paint anything as something else. The Jedi simply don't have a character arc (that's not a bad thing, not everyone needs to have a character arc). They are a team of peacekeepers that was played by the villains and betrayed by one of their own. Obi-Wan doesn't have a character arc either (except in TPM). The fact that he's the same throughout the movies is what makes him who he is. Same with Yoda (and Sidious, for example). They are standing stones to the main characters.
    Last edited by Alexrd, Jan 12, 2017
    bhagavandas likes this.
  21. Baks Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 30, 2003
    star 1
    I personally think that Obi was just too rigid and stern, remember Anakin did say he was overly critical in AOTC.

    Also his inability to listen to others peoples opinions is one of his biggest flaws. That's sorta why Anakin felt he couldn't talk to Obi about Padme's pregnancy.

    It's sorta the reason why Anakin fell and why Luke nearly fell too. Neither Obi or Yoda seem to realize that both Luke and Anakin care more about people rather than abstract things like the force.
    bhagavandas likes this.
  22. bhagavandas Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 21, 2016
    star 1
    I Like this point of view. I also think Obi Was was a little inflexible with Ani in AotC. We can clearly see this in some scenes. Obi Wan also looks like holding a grudge of Ani because of his attitudes.

    And sorry, @Alexrd, newbie here, but what is arc?

    Enviado de meu XT1563 usando Tapatalk
  23. Alexrd Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    Yes, Anakin the teenager behaving like one.

    When did that happen?

    There's no excuse for Anakin's greed and lack of honesty.

    What?!?!

    It's a narrative term to describe a character or story with a beginning, middle and end.
    bhagavandas likes this.
  24. mihaitzateo Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Oct 5, 2015
    star 3
    Yes, Darth Vader at that time did not knew how to proper use his anger , his hatred.
    But Darth Sidious also let himself sunked in the anger , when he can not defeat an opponent.
    Obi Wan knew very well to defend against dark side user that were fighting using their bursts of anger and hatred,as Darth Vader was ,that time.
    Darth Maul was also fighting using his bursts of rage and anger.
    However, when it comes to dark side users as Count Dooku was, cold headed, Obi Wan is clearly out matched.
    Obi Wan was an opportunist , he knew how to take advantage of every opportunity it came.
    This is why I think Obi Wan would have stand a much better chance against Darth Sidious, than Master Yoda did.
    If Obi Wan would have caught only one moment Darth Sidious off-guard, he would have shown no hesitation or mercy and would have killed Darth Sidious.
    He would not have done as Mace Windu .
    From this point of view, of showing no hesitation or mercy, Obi Wan has what Darth Sidious asks from Anakin/Darth Vader:
    "Do what must be done, lord Vader! Do not hesitate! Show no mercy!".

    So, this is really weird, from this point of view Obi Wan is showing a lot of resemblances to Darth Sidious.
    Add to that his natural skill to trick the minds of the people ,similar to Darth Sidious.
  25. The_Phantom_Calamari Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 10, 2011
    star 4

    Well, as I'm sure I've said before, I find that a perfectly bizarre interpretation completely at odds with both the films themselves and George Lucas's statements about the films. What do you think the purpose of Yoda's line about the Jedi's increasing arrogance was supposed to be? Like, that line was just there for no reason, and we're supposed to ignore it? It doesn't mean anything? We're not supposed to read anything into it? Combine that with all of George Lucas's statements about how the Jedi are doing the wrong thing by becoming generals and are becoming "corrupted" by war, in addition to Dave Filoni's statements about the matter after his discussions with George Lucas, and I'm not sure how you can come to the conclusion that the Jedi have no character arc. It's just a completely unsupportable viewpoint at odds with every piece of evidence on the matter we have at our disposal.
    Last edited by The_Phantom_Calamari, Jan 13, 2017
Moderators: heels1785, Seagoat