So we still don't know why Syfo Dias ordered the clone army.

And still, I'd really like to know, and i'd like to know if there is a link between him and Darth Plagues or Palpatine.

clone army
WHY????

Strilo edit: We have the official Sifo-Dyas Discussion Thread now.

 

In Labyrinth of Evil, it describes alot of Dooku's emotions and his past. Particularly, his entry to the Sith which was kiling Syfo, his best friend at the time.

It also explains how Syfo went to Kamino and requested a Clone Army because he knew the Council would never agree to this. He did it behind the Jedi Council's back because he felt a threat growing in the Force.

 

In AotC Coomentary Lucas says "In the next film who ordered the Army will become clear"

Bear in mind Jango was recruited by Dooku (after he's left the Jedi order and joined the Sith) and he is the template for the Clone-troopers. Also that when the Sidious orders the execution of Order 66 all the clone troopers respond "Yes My Lord" instead of Yes Chancellor or something else.

Indicates the Sith ordered them and Sifo-Dyas was just a diversion to stop the Jedi investigating further.

 

After reading OLE i too thought the same reasons, but after ROTS i think it was Sidious. If Dooku had placed the order why not betray Sidious and by having two armies for himself making him unstopable? Plus, as also stated the clones seem to know Sidious when he gives order 66.

 

I don't believe the Jedi Syfo Dias actually ordered the clones, that is very unlike a Master Jedi of his status to do something like that behind the council's back--plus he was on the council himself, and if he believed it was necessary would have convinced the council to allow it. And I don't think Sidious did it personally. The guy did very little of anything personally unless forced to (ie fighting Yoda). He is the grand manipulator behind the scenes, and would not take the risks involved in presenting himself to the Kaminoans to do this. He always deals with others as Sidious in the PT through the hologram communicator, except his apprentices. So he would have had one of his errand boys or apprentices order the clone army. I would say that before Dooku killed Syfo Dias, he went to Kamino and commissioned the clone army per Palps instructions. Dooku could have easily said he was Syfo Dias, how would the Kaminoans know? They weren't part of the Republic and likely had little knowledge of who each Jedi truly was. If they tried to check his facts, they would find that there was indeed a Jedi Master Syfo Dias on the council, so they would not suspect anything. Then Dooku had to kill Syfo Dias to keep the secret.

 

I don't believe the Jedi Syfo Dias actually ordered the clones, that is very unlike a Master Jedi of his status to do something like that behind the council's back--plus he was on the council himself, and if he believed it was necessary would have convinced the council to allow it.

LOE also talked about Yoda and how he was noticing some changes in the force for the past few years. A reemergence of the darkside. It started out slowly, then Jedi were becoming more disgruntled with the way things were being run by the Council. Syfo Dias was one of those who were seeing signs of the darkside, but didn't feel the Council was doing anything about it. Syfo Dias thought he was doing what was right buying an army in case it was needed later. Unfortunately, he confided in his good friend Dooku.

 

If you choose to ignore the EU, then you will never get an answer to your question.

The answer is there for those who care to read.

 

Whether you read the EU or just follow the Canon of the Movies. It is clear the Army template is Jango. Jango was recruited by the Sith. We know this.

Therefore whether Sifo Dyas was going to place the order or not he never did. Unless he turned up placed the order and the Cloner's went..and who do you want us to base the Clones on?? What's Dyas going to do? errm hang on a moment? I've left my would be template for a clone army in another tunic! ooops.

No, no, no. To place the order you need the template and that means the Sith chose Jango and by default means they placed the order.

Plus Lucas says in AoTC commentary. It'll be made clear in Ep.3. since Order 66 is activated by Sidious. Since The clones refer to him as My Lord. It is clear the Sith be it Sidious or Dooku ordered the Army. The Sifo Dyas thing is a smoke-screen to make people believe the army was ordered by a well to do Jedi Master who was killed shortly later.

 

Exactly. Jango says he was 'recruited by a man named Tyranus on the moons of Bogden'. Further evidence to my belief that Dooku placed the order. Syfo Dias would have had to have the template for the clones to have placed the order. Since Jango was the guy, and he dealt with Dooku, and the Kaminoans never mention dealing with any Jedi but Syfo Dias, so to them Dooku = Syfo Dias.

 

wow that is powerful stuff right there

 

Could Syfo Dias be Darth Sidious' apprentice after Darth Maul? Is that why Dooku killed him? To become Sidious' new apprentice? Just something to think about....

 

WTF? Why do so many of you dismiss officially licensed Star Wars novels like they are fan fiction? Unless the film openly states something different, why wouldn't you take the EU explanation at face value? People at Lucas Books gave the OK for this at some point...it's not something random.

 

You can dismiss it. As Lucas says on the AoTC Commentary that it will be cleared up in Ep.3 not in the EU. I believe this is what everyone calls "canon". So we can dismiss what had been written in the past.

 

"I was recruited by a man called Tyranus on one of the moons of Bogden."

"Lord Tyranus, welcome home."


Tyranus recruited Jango. Tyranus=Dooku. Dooku ordered the Clones.

 

Exactly. The point made earlier. Why is this being debated? It's clear the Sith ordered the Clones.

It's clear because Jango admit's Tyranus recruited him and because of Order 66. Which must have been implemented at a genetic level. All the Clones refer to Palpatine as Lord..not Chancellor so they know him as Sidious.

This all happens in the films so it's Canon. There is no debate..surely!

 

Also, the RotS Visual Dictionary says that Darth Tyrannus' first act as a Sith was to kill Syfo Dias. As the saying goes, dead Jedi tell no tales, so he couldn't confirm nor deny that he ordered the army.

 

I never said that SD hired Jango...I said that SD placed the initial order for the clone army.

It could have gone down like this:

1. SD hires the Kaminoans to create a clone army for the Republic
2. Kaminoans ask SD to provide a "template" for the cloning. According to the AOTC novel, the Kaminoans initially wanted a Jedi, but SD was against that.
3. Dooku and Sidious discover that SD has placed the order for the army and Dooku murders him.
4. Dooku hires Jango to be the template. I doubt that a true Jedi would have hired such a shady character for the template, but that's just my speculation.
5. The Kaminoans are informed that Jango will be the template via something other than a face-to-face meeting with Dooku.
6. Jango arrives on Kamino to begin the cloning

Until Lucas somehow overrides this explaination himself, it remains the only explaination to come from an official Lucas company. If George Lucas turns around and says that Han Solo secretly travelled back through time and placed the order for the clone army...then we will all have to live with that.

 

He's already said "The next MOVIE will clear it up" when he talked about AoTC. you won't find the answer in a book written inbetween AoTC and RotS.

You cannot get any more offical than him saying it.

 

Because Tyrannus didn't think there was a chance his master was going to kill him off. He may have still been thinking along the lines of the Jedi who allow a more peaceable advancement in rank.

I stand by the belief Sidious ordered the clones. As stated, the clones knew him as "My Lord", but also, it's hardly iconcievable that he could communicate undetected via hologram. No one seemed to find it odd when transmissions were sent from Coruscant to the TF command ship or Geonosis. He could handle the politics/ budget issues, while allowing his apprentice Tyrannus to deal with finding a template.

Syfo Dias couldn't have ordered the creation. Obi-Wan says Syfo Dias died 10 years previous, but the clones (at least I thought so, don't remember if any canon confirms it) were created over the course of five years. Also, ten years ago would have been before Maul was dead, and assuming Sidious follows the rule of two, Dooku would not have been his apprentice yet.

 

Mace Windu calls Sidious 'my lord' when he goes to arrest him. Does that mean Sidious ordered the creation of Mace..? Of course not. The clones calling Sidious 'my lord' may just be something that was programmed in them along with everything else. The command would be something like 'if you ever get a communique from a creepy wrinkly old dude in a black bathrobe and he grumbles something at you, you say 'yes my lord' and do it chop chop. Doesn't mean that Sidious PERSONALLY ordered the clones. That's what we're trying to unravel in this thread--was he behind it, sure. Did he order somebody to do it (Dooku), most likely. Did he do it himself, don't think so. We already discussed his reluctance to appear to others in person as Sidious, and I couldn't imagine the Kaminoans (who put great stock in your manners and the depths of your pockets according to Dexter) doing all that work and all they ever dealt with from the beginning was a hologram.

Also, I don't think there was time for any other apprentice between Maul and Dooku. Maul is killed at the end of TPM. AOTC starts 10yrs after the end of TPM. Dooku killed Syfo Dias. The Jedi say Syfo Dias died almost 10yrs ago. Where was the time for another apprentice? There was none, Dooku stepped in almost immediately after Maul.

With that established, the real question now is, who deleted Kamino from the Jedi Archives to cover for this conspiracy? You would think Dooku did, but I see that there is a slight problem with that idea.

Does anyone have any information/thoughts on this?

 

Labyrinth of Evil specifically states that Dooku erased the info about Kamino from the Archives right before leaving the Order.

 

That's what I would have said, but even though I accept all EU unless directly contradicting the films, there's a problem with that even within the EU.

Dooku is said to be part of the Lost Twenty--Jedi who left the order for their own personal reasons, without having fallen to the dark side. Dooku is believed to have gone to the dark side shortly after leaving the order, joining the Separatists and being approached by Sidious. To have known to erase Kamino from the archives prior to leaving the Jedi, you figure he had to have been having dealings with Sidious prior to his departure from the Jedi because ultimately Sidious was behind all of this. Why would he betray the Jedi and the Republic by erasing data from the archives unless he had begun to fall to the dark side prior to leaving the order?

So to me, there is either a problem with our perception of what the Lost Twenty were, or there is a problem with Dooku having performed the erasure of Kamino prior to leaving the order.

 

Well, the Jedi hadn't realized that Dooku had turned to the Darkside until Kenobi met him in AotC.

 

Exactly! And that is blatantly obvious from the Attack of the Clones MOVIE. When Padme accuses Dooku of trying to kill her, both Ki-Adi-Mundi and Mace Windu come to Dooku's defense by stating that he would NEVER try to murder someone because he used to be a Jedi and was simply a political idealist. In the minds of the Jedi, Dooku was simply disillusioned with the Jedi Order, but still a crackin' good fellow.

So it stands to reason that Dooku could easily have turned to the Dark Side before even leaving the order. According to the EU, Dooku's first act as a true Sith was the murder of SD, then his next act as a Sith was to erase Kamino from the Jedi archives...then he left the order.

With the Jedi's ability to use the force deminished in recent years and clouded by the Dark Side, why would anybody be surprised that they were clueless about Dooku's turn to the Dark Side while still a Jedi?

 

Darth Plag. was Sidious' master. It was Sid who killed Plag. in his sleep. And It wasnt syfo dias was one of the next in line for being Sidiouses aprentice. He created the clone army, and got killed by doku or something like that. Then Dooku became the aprentice. There was also another in-line. He was a Jedi, the same one who deleted the files from the archives.