Discussions So why are all Jedi allowed to love but Anakin?

Ok so not ALL of them, but I have been curious about this for some time now. Its obvious that Anakin loved Padme and that was strictly forbidden along with any other attachments (ie parents, friends, etc.) But Obi-wan seemed pretty upset when his master was killed in front of him, he declared his love for Anakin (like a brother) in episode 3, and in the clone wars he seemed pretty fond of the Duchess of Mandalore. He is never reprimanded for these obvious attachments and is instead looked at as one of the best Jedi ever. Then there is Luke and Leia in the EU. Luke gets married and has kids and loves his sister and her husband (his best friend) and their kids. Leia does the same. Why are all of these people allowed to stay Jedi and Anakin had to love in secret? I personally would even go as far as saying that if he was actually ALLOWED to love, maybe he would not have had so much hate and resentment in him that lead to him turning to the dark side. Thoughts? Comment?

 

I think a lot of it is 'interpretation' for Obi and because Luke had the SENSE the OJO lacked to seek balance of emotion not deny it altogether lying to himself constantly that emotions don't exist or are wholly 'dark'. I agree with you, if the OJO had more sense in their handling of Anakin odds are good he wouldn't have turned and THEY may have actually found balance. Yes, Cushy isn't a big Jedi fan.

 

Well some of the things you stated with Obi Wan like his attachment to Anakin was the love for a son/brother which is allowed in the Jedi Order. The same goes for his love and affection for his master Qui Gon. In regards to the Duchess of Mandalore at one time Obi Wan did love her but he knows his duty to the Jedi Order is more important then his love for Satine and Yoda and his other contemporaries recognize that he is a responsible Jedi Master who has self control and will not cross that line no matter the feelings he had for the Duchess in the past. As for Anakin there are multiple reasons why the Jedi Order was stricter on him then other Jedi like Obi Wan. The first of these reasons was the simple fact that he was not yet a Jedi Master. He was still a Padawan/Apprentice for most of the prequel trilogies before becoming a knight between Episode 2 and 3. Many masters probably didn't think that Anakin at that point in time was responsible enough to deal with his own affairs like that. Aside from that he was also the Chosen One of prophecy so the Jedi found it extremely important to prevent Anakin's corruption and fall to the Dark Side which they though attachments would lead to. The third reason is more of a guess on my part but I believe also that because Anakin arrived in the order "too old" as Mace and Yoda put it he was more susceptible to his emotions and therefore the Jedi thought they should keep a closer watch on him then they probably normally would.

 

Yet their mishandling drove Anakin to cling all the tighter to Sids and Padme....

 

True. Why the Jedi allowed Anakin to spend so much time with Palpatine I'll never know.

 

Well Mr. Cushy, I am not a Jedi fan either because I think all of their limitations causes frustration that actually pushes people to the dark side. They are like preacher kids. They live such a strict life and when they finally get any freedom, they make poor decisions. Instead of telling them not to have attachments, I feel like they should be teaching them how to control those emotions and not let them get away with them. Telling people to lie about having feelings altogether is just asking for trouble.

And that brings me to my next point...you said the brother/son love was allowed in the Jedi order. When is this expressed? I have always heard that the Jedi were against any attachments whatsoever. Love is a significant attachment and it is a major emotion. The first line in the Jedi Code is "there is no emotion, there is peace." How can that be in their code, but they allow son/brother love which is an emotion?

They don't want you to have attachments because it clouds your judgement. If you are faced with a spiderman type decision where you have to pick a bus of children or your gf/bf/best friend/son/brother/etc. they don't want you to make the selfish decision. Having that other person be a bother or son doesn't make those things any less judgement clouding right?

 

I agree with the part addressed to me. However, it is Ms Cushy. Well met.

 

I also thought they contradicted themselves there too. I'm always confused by how the jedi say no attachments, but there okay with a master and a apprentice having a close bond. It also makes the Jedi more cold looking, never really like how arrogant the jedi seemed too even though I like some jedi. I prefer the sith as, well, they seem to be simpler. Plus, they look cooler.

 

My apologies Ms Cushy.

I will admit that I was initially drawn to the dark side because they look cooler. I mean, red really is the best color for a lightsaber and shooting lightning is way cooler than throwing stuff around. But then I started to really exam the codes of the 2 and I became a Sith for life. While I don't agree with killing younglings or blowing up planets, I do believe that emotion is something someone can just choose not to have. And as peace keepers, how can you empathize and fully grasp the reasons why you should be protecting others from war if you have never experienced losing someone you love? I don't know. The jedi seem to contradict themselves on many things in this area. I think it makes it hard to trust them or follow there lead when they are never consistent.

 

Sorry Brother/Father love relationship was probably a little too strong. I meant the Jedi allow and even encourage the master/apprentice bond and seem to be fine with them being affectionate towards eachother. It apparently makes for better teamwork during missions. I've always been of the opinion that Jedi are mega hypocrites so this always made sense to me.

 

@ Darth_BDO: Indeed. Cushy is emotional and intuitive first I wouldn't be able to survive being a Jedi by their Code. Waaay too imbalanced and unnatural. They deceive themselves and others all the blasted time but only blame Sith. They are hypocrites. Sapients NEED emotion for balance this is what the Jedi don't grasp due to their fear. It is not out right denial but self-control and BALANCE that is needed and that varies by person. They likewise don't admit this.

It's fine. I often am called 'he' probably of Sir being my avvie but I am a she.

 

Well so long as we all agree with the fact the the Jedi are hypocrites. lol Cushing's Admirer I totally agree with you. The Jedi should focus their teachings on controlling emotions rather than expelling them. I think Jedi would be a happier group and not near as tempted by the dark side if this were the method of teaching. They definitely are deceptive ALOT! Hell I would argue that their deceptive ways were the first thing that made Anakin question who was on the good side. When the order told him to spy on Pal and report back to them, I think that was the moment he started to second guess things. And then there is Obi-Wan lying to Luke about his father. But they are only deceptive liars for the "greater good" right? Or is it just only ok when a Jedi does it?

Also, I noticed that no one really mentioned why Luke and Leia were allowed to get married and have kids and still be Jedi. Most of the EU that I have read is Old Republic era so I am not to clear about what happened with them after the movies and outside of the Thrawn Trilogy. Can someone tell me if the new Jedi Order that Luke and Leia started had more relaxed rules for love and relationships? Also, I have heard that at some point Luke turns to the dark side. Is that true? Does any know the story of what tempted him?

 

I'm glad you're here. Nice to see someone else willing to acknowledge that the Jedi have failings and do most if not nearly all of what they condemn in others themselves. That's part of why I say the entire Saga is grey not merely the PT like many act. All sides basically do the same wrong things but it's somehow okay for the 'good guys'? Though I disagree that Obi lied to Luke.

The Post RotJ Order under Luke was largely more 'relaxed' regarding relationships and marriage, yes. I believe marriage and accepting pupils regardless of age are two of the few things Luke improved upon.

Luke turns in a comic series called Dark Empire. I forget why, though.

 

Luke had been kidnapped by Palpatine (who had returned from death, possessing the body of a clone of his). When brought before Palpatine, and offered an apprenticeship, Luke said yes (he was planning on taking advantage of his position to sabotage Palpatine's war effort- and find out how Palpatine returned).

While he managed to do that, and killed most of the clones Palpatine had prepared to possess when his current body wore out, Luke lost in a duel with the surviving Palpatine-possessed clone. Palpatine then used the Dark Side of the Force to overcome Luke's resistance - enslaving him.

Palpatine set Luke to duel Leia - but Luke overcame Palpatine's enslaving power at that point, duelled Palpatine to defeat, and he and Leia worked together to break Palpatine's concentration when Palpatine summoned up an enormous Force Storm.

That storm, which had been destroying the Rebel Fleet, turned when Palpatine lost control of it, and destroyed Palpatine's own ship with him aboard (Luke and Leia fled in a shuttle).

So - the reasons for Luke's "turning" were ( in the case of the first, fake one) was "so he could take advantage of the opportunities presented as his apprentice, to destroy Palpatine and the Imperial war effort" and the reason for his second "turning" was "because Palpatine had enslaved him with his Force powers.

 

I am glad you are here too. Actually Im glad I found this forum at all. So many of the others ones I have tried are filled with people who say you aren't a "true fan" if you don't subscribe to the mainstream Star Wars opinions out there. I'm glad I have found some intelligent fans that I can actually discuss things with. And another female no less.

Thank you for the info. I will have to read up on the Dark Empire on Wookieepedia. But I must ask, why do you disagree that Obi lied to Luke?

 

Wow! This was awesome! Thank you so much. I have always wondered the story behind it. This sounds like a great comic.

 

True fan nonsense does occur here too as do canon wars but it's not as pervasive here than other places. I'm glad too Cushy enjoys civil in-depth discourse where I am heard and not automatically shutdown because I am NOT mainstream.

Because what he said is true the only thing that isn't to me is that Anakin and Vader are NOT different people yet his fans do this too. I recently realised that my Sir even has an Anakin-like character in his Lorrimer Van Helsing of Dracula AD 1972 and Vampire Bride. They are OBVIOUSLY greatly different in manner (with cause) but they aren't different men as Sir states his name is yet 'Lorrimer' in Vampire Bride. People can change drastically due to affects of circumstances but they are still them.

I believe Obi wasn't able/willing to be straight out because he wasn't ready to admit he failed in his eyes. (Which he didn't, ANAKIN did). Thus he told the truth in a way he could handle.

 

Well I see why everyone gets confused about treating them as different people. Both Yoda and Palpatine refer to the counter part as if they are another person. Like in episode 3 when Yoda sees the security recording of Anakin killing the younglings and tells Obi "The boy you trained, gone he is. Consumed by Darth Vader." (Note he said consumed not killed.) And in ANH Palpatine says that Luke is the son of Anakin Skywalker when he is talking to Vader. They kind of act like they are different people.

But as far as Obi wan lying, it was the wording that made it seem like such a lie to me. In ANH he told Luke that Vader "betrayed and murdered your father." How can you explain that word usage away as not being a lie? I mean, when did Darth Vader betray Anakin? And when did he murder him? Consumed him, maybe. But his father is still breathing. How can you tell a kid that his father was murdered when he is still out there walking around and not be lying? Maybe Obi considers him dead because he is not the person he once knew, but that's not his place to push the way he sees him on someone else.

 

To each their own.

 

lol ok fair enough. I wasn't trying to push anything on you. I think everyone sees these movies so differently and I enjoy hearing other fan's visions and discussing things. All in a friendly way of course.

 

Your are both right and this what i think Lucas wanted to show us : that Attachements are not weakness, but strenght. And this is what Qui-Gon tried to teach to Obi-wan : the way of the Living Force. How could we understand and appreciate others if we have fear to connect/bond with them. It was attachement that enable Luke to connect with Anakin/Vader without the knowledge of the latter, of Palpatine, of everyone and turn him to the Light. But unlike Luke, i push this logic even further and i summary the Jedi Code in two laws : You will love the Force your creator with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind and you will love your neighbor as yourself.
In this way, there will be more of a problem .
Thank you for reading me.

 

Cause Anakin lacks self control. His "love" is unhealthy, and he is incapable of letting go.

 

What Anakin had wasn't love at all.

 

The point is that you can love someone without possessing them... Simple as that...

 

I would venture to say that Anakin's love is unhealthy because he wasn't allowed to love in a healthy way. When you spend your life trying to lie to yourself about your feelings it creates a very unhealthy mental state. Its hard to let go of something you feel like you never really got to have.