So you think the US is in a moral downfall....

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by TreeCave, Feb 21, 2002.

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  1. TreeCave Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2001
    star 4
    Well, here's something I hope might prove an interesting discussion.

    If you think the US is becoming more immoral in recent times...

    What do you say to a couple of centuries of slavery, a significant number of witch burnings, decades of legal child labor, and a couple of centuries of failure to recognize that women could be educated, could drive and vote sensibly, and be citizens? These are just a few examples of what I suspect most people would agree to label as "immoral" behavior.

    If you think of these things as "ignorant" and not immoral, but think of today's third generation welfare slackers as immoral rather than ignorant, be prepared to defend the apparent contradiction in your views.
  2. Darth_Dagsy Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2000
    star 6
    who says the US is in a moral downfall?
  3. GreedoCMZ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 1999
    star 4
    Looks like a straw man is being set up here.
  4. McNerf-Burger Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 13, 2000
    star 5
    What on Earth does THAT mean?
  5. GreedoCMZ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 1999
    star 4
    The McNerf Burger has a lot to learn. A "straw man" is a type of argument. Look it up in a logical thinking book or something.

    I short, our Oregonian TreeCave friend is challenging any who say the US is in a moral downfall. His standards of what defines a moral downfall are witch trials and the like and since that doesn't go on anymore then there must be no moral downfall. He sets up a philosophical straw man and then easily knocks it over.
  6. Gandalf the Grey Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 14, 2000
    star 6
    Some people, usually elderly or highly religious (to make a stereotype? :p), think that the whole country is going to pot. Those crazy kids are smoking dope, having premarital sex (gasp!) and listening to the Devils music. And these new-fangled ideas like evolution are dangerous. And don?t get ?em started on them computer thingamajigers?
  7. Pellaeon69187 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 28, 2000
    star 5
    Who the hell cares.
    This is a free country and I'll be as moral or immoral as I want as long as I don't break any rules.
  8. AJA Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 1998
    star 4
  9. Darth Fierce Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 6, 2000
    star 4
    "Liberals suck"

    And there's a word for that type of argument, too.
  10. IAmTheDarkSide Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 9, 2002
    star 4
    Countries are not moral or immoral. People are moral or immoral.
  11. Herman Snerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 1999
    star 6
    Um, Greedo, Treecave is a she.


    And every generation thinks that the generation that follows it has lost its way and everything will go to hell.
  12. Dark Lady Mara Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 1999
    star 7
    I was just reading Boccaccio's Decameron, a book written in the fourteenth century. Anyone who thinks people are any less moral now than they were hundreds of years ago should check that book out. Basic human nature does not change.
  13. TripleB Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 4
    I am reminded about the reverand Jerry Falwell's comments he made after the 9/11 attacks.

    The only thing I think worse then his comments is the reaction of the Left Wing of america to them. According to the National Organization of Womens website, what Jerry Falwell said was the worst thing to happen that week, they hardly even touched on the 9/11 attack itself.

    Other left wing organizations cried about it, to the point that Falwell probably was right.
  14. Fingorfin Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2001
    star 4
  15. Dark Lady Mara Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 1999
    star 7
    Yeah, please explain. I missed his comments.
  16. TripleB Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 4
    MOre or less, Jerry Falwell talked about the United state's moral decline as being partly at fault of of the 9/11 attacks. He talked about the rise of godlessness in the US, of the trampling of morals and values by the extreme left wing, and such, of a form of God withdrawing his 'blessings' of the United States. There was more to it then that, since it has been a few months since I actually read it.

    I really did not care for it, but could see where he was coming from, though. I knew the extreme left wing would use it for whatever they could.
  17. Darth Geist Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    Here's Falwell's conversation with Pat Robertson:

    (Partial transcript of comments from the Thursday, September 13, 2001 edition of the '700 Club.')

    JERRY FALWELL: And I agree totally with you that the Lord has protected us so wonderfully these 225 years. And since 1812, this is the first time that we've been attacked on our soil and by far the worst results. And I fear, as Donald Rumsfeld, the Secretary of Defense, said yesterday, that this is only the beginning. And with biological warfare available to these monsters - the Husseins, the Bin Ladens, the Arafats--what we saw on Tuesday, as terrible as it is, could be miniscule if, in fact--if, in fact--God continues to lift the curtain and allow the enemies of America to give us probably what we deserve.

    PAT ROBERTSON: Jerry, that's my feeling. I think we've just seen the antechamber to terror. We haven't even begun to see what they can do to the major population.

    JERRY FALWELL: The ACLU's got to take a lot of blame for this.

    PAT ROBERTSON: Well, yes.

    JERRY FALWELL: And, I know that I'll hear from them for this. But, throwing God out successfully with the help of the federal court system, throwing God out of the public square, out of the schools. The abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked. And when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad. I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way--all of them who have tried to secularize America--I point the finger in their face and say "you helped this happen."

    PAT ROBERTSON: Well, I totally concur, and the problem is we have adopted that agenda at the highest levels of our government. And so we're responsible as a free society for what the top people do. And, the top people, of course, is the court system.

    JERRY FALWELL: Pat, did you notice yesterday the ACLU, and all the Christ-haters, People For the American Way, NOW, etc. were totally disregarded by the Democrats and the Republicans in both houses of Congress as they went out on the steps and called out on to God in prayer and sang "God Bless America" and said "let the ACLU be hanged"? In other words, when the nation is on its knees, the only normal and natural and spiritual thing to do is what we ought to be doing all the time--calling upon God.

    PAT ROBERTSON: Amen

    -----

    Confronted about his choice of words, Falwell later said that the quote italicized above was "taken out of context."
  18. Jedi_Master201 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 5, 2001
    star 5
    The US is in a moral downfall.


    Sure, basic human nature is still the same, but now evil is done more openly. It's actual allowed, and in some cases, encouraged by the government. So, in that way, our imorality is more apparent, and much more common then it was a while back.
  19. Darth Geist Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    "...but now evil is done more openly. It's actual allowed, and in some cases, encouraged by the government."

    So all that witch burning, slavery, Japanese internment--that was all illegal and done in secret?

    Damn, I must've read the wrong history book.
  20. IAmTheDarkSide Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 9, 2002
    star 4
    I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way--all of them who have tried to secularize America--I point the finger in their face and say "you helped this happen."

    [face_plain]
  21. Palpazzar Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 2000
    star 4
    The US has been in a moral downfall since before there was a US. The only difference is some things are in vogue anymore.

    Saying that "hey we don't do this anymore" hardly qualifies as evidence that things are getting better. Now we have kids killing other kids over sneakers.
  22. Dark Lady Mara Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 1999
    star 7
    .... and kids didn't murder other kids in the past over whatever other causes they chose? Proof, please.
  23. DARTHPIGFEET Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2001
    star 4
    Things have been going downhill since the Hippie movement of the 1960's.

    However it's important to point out that each generation says the same thing about every other generation, but the Hippie movement caused a lot of problems with the way things are today.
  24. Darth Geist Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    "The US has been in a moral downfall since before there was a US."

    That would imply that the US was more strongly moral at some point. Some people will point to the forties and fifties as examples of moral strength, and it was there to an extent--but at the same time, we had segregation, Communist witch hunts, and racism run wild. The twenties? It was a golden age if you were rich or middle-class, but both those classes made a lifestyle out of exploiting the poor. The elegance of the Old South goes hand-in-hand with slavery, the Biblical roots of the Puritan era tie in with the infamous witch burnings, and so on all the way back to Columbus.

    American morality hasn't declined; it's simply changed.
  25. Palpazzar Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 2000
    star 4
    I half agree with Geist. The US was never 'more moral' in the sense of some great 'moral society'. However, I think it has done more than change to an equivalent form. The decay is a result of changing values.
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