So you think the US is in a moral downfall....

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by TreeCave, Feb 21, 2002.

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  1. Charles_Windflyer Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 23, 2002
    star 1
    Just a note on the abortion issue before getting back to the proper topic...

    It seems, Kessel that the imminent threat of death an unwanted pregnancy would bring about has caused you to be very responsible and wary of pregnancy. I admire your fortitude and you have my sympathies.

    Unfortunately, from what I hear spoken by so many pro-abortionists, they don't have the same level of responsibility or caution. After all, if the alternative was a "back-alley" or "Tijuana" abortion, why wouldn't they develop the strength and self control you have? Are they really, as the Federal Government tries to convince us, too helpless and hopeless to take the same measures you have?

    In my own personal, humble opinion, abortion is a matter of convienience. It is inconvenient to say "no," it is inconvenient to wear protection, it is inconvienient to wait until you are prepared to have a child, it is inconvenient to develop the fortitude that you have, Kessel.

    Pro-Choice
    Yes, I chose to have sex,
    Yes, I chose to have unprotected sex,
    Yes, I chose to have sex before I could emotionally or financially afford to have a child.
    Yes, I chose to have sex before I was married,

    But you know what? I wouldn't trade my son for anything in the world, and I thank GOD (literally) that we didn't choose to have an abortion.
    Charles
  2. Cailina Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 1999
    star 4
    "After all, if the alternative was a 'back-alley' or 'Tijuana' abortion, why wouldn't they develop the strength and self control you have? Are they really, as the Federal Government tries to convince us, too helpless and hopeless to take the same measures you have?"

    Uhm...some of us pro-choicers are taking/will take the same precautions as Kessel. However we either think that if soomething happens(contraceptives aren't 100% effective), abortion should be a last option or we just don't think it can constitutionally be outlawed(entirely at any rate).
  3. Kessel Runner Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 1999
    star 6
    OK, I already said let's move on. This is not going to be "just another abortion thread". No one is going to change anyone's mind here, we'll devolve into a flame war and I will be forced to ban people. Let's move on and talk about the new topic at hand.
  4. Palpazzar Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 2000
    star 4
    How about the issue of the abuse of power? We have many examples such as *certain* admins who yeild their power to ban like a magic wand ;)

    Seriously though, is power abused and if you think so, in what ways?
  5. Kessel Runner Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 1999
    star 6
    Well I have one specific example in mind. I don't know if any of you are familiar with the West Memphis Three, but they are three teenage boys who were convicted of murdering three 8 year old boys back in 1993. The judge in that case abused his power. I was at a gathering of Defense Fund supporters on Saturday night and we were watching the tapes of the trial (their story was two documentaries on HBO, Paradise Lost and Paradise Lost 2: Revelations). The judge was making the objections for the prosecution, and reading his mail/paying bills when the defense made arguments.

  6. Palpazzar Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 2000
    star 4
    I know of the case, but not the judge's actions. Was an appeal made on that basis?
  7. Kessel Runner Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 1999
    star 6
    The current stage of the appeals is being handled by the SAME judge.

    Free the West Memphis Three!

    Henry Rollins is performing a benefit show for them this Friday in LA at the Troubadour.
  8. Palpazzar Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 2000
    star 4
    I see in your sig that you want them freed.

    While I see the problem with the judge's behavior, I hope there is another reason you want them freed.
  9. Kessel Runner Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 1999
    star 6
    Yeah,

    they are innocent. There is hard physical evidence and forensic evidence to prove they couldn't have done it, but the judge and jury didn't care about that because they were "satan worshippers". WHen in truth, they didn't even believe in the devil, they just wore black and listened to Metallica.
  10. Palpazzar Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 2000
    star 4
    I'm not doubting you. But what evidence was there for innocent?

    I remember the HBO special, but didn't watch it.
  11. Kessel Runner Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 1999
    star 6
    The first one raises questions, the second answers them. There are bite marks on the boys. Bites from a human mouth that don't match any of the three arrested kids. They didn't know the victims. They were convicted on the confession of one of the three who has an IQ of 72 (permanent 5 year old level) after almost 12 hours of interrogation (of which only the final 45 minutes were recorded) and all of the details in his confession don't match the actual crime scene or evidence.
  12. Palpazzar Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 2000
    star 4
    Surely the state had something besides the confession of the one boy. Wasn't there some physical evidence the state had?
  13. Kessel Runner Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 1999
    star 6
    If you'd like to see the full details you can visit the site, but no. They had heresay witnesses (some 12 year old softball players who said they heard Damien bragging about it, but couldn't remember if he was near them or far away or if he was whispering or shouting). That had no murder weapons, no finger print evidence, no physical evidence at all.

    In fact the following quote is from the father of one of the victims:
    My name is Rick Murray, and I am the biological father of Christopher, one of the three boys who were murdered in West Memphis, Arkansas in 1993. I'm making this statement to say that I am not satisfied with the investigation of my son's murder. I am not satisfied with the verdicts of the trials, and I want everyone to know that I believe the wrong people are in prison for this crime.

    I have many reasons for feeling this way. I know the people who are close to this thing, and I know that people were mad about it, and they were wanting it to be solved quick. It got to the point where they weren't thinking about the truth, they were only listening to what the police and the reporters were telling them.
  14. Palpazzar Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 2000
    star 4
    Interesting.

    What do you think of the missile attacks of President Clinton in December of 1997?
  15. TreeCave Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2001
    star 4
    In regards to the case KR is talking about, I want to point out one thing. There was a forensic pathologist who worked in FL, TX and WV, who falsified DNA reports and other evidence in order to incriminate the suspect the DA wanted to prosecute. The more they've investigated, the more it appears a lot of people were in on the scam. The guy did this for years before anyone bothered to expose him.

    And why? Because it's easier to fake a few reports than to really investigate and find out who committed the crime. Think about it - even if all of us here never took shortcuts in any job we ever had, I'm sure we all know people who did. Imagine those same people being cops, or lawyers, or forensic pathologists. Would you trust results based on their work? Unfortunately, we do it every day, and even send people to death row because of it.

    I won't reply to the points on abortion since the subject is closed, but I do want to go on record saying that some of what I've said was, I'm pretty sure, misinterpreted. And I'm sure I misinterpreted some of the arguments on the other end. But that's KR's point - we're going to misinterpret because we are passionate about the subject, and that's why there's no point discussing it.
  16. GreedoCMZ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 1999
    star 4
    If you abort a fetus, whether or not you term it 'life,' you have to know that you are preventing it from achieving its full potential. Hence the word abortion.
  17. Kessel Runner Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 1999
    star 6
    Greedo, we're not doing that anymore.


    Thanks for the support there. Oh, and that is another thing. The "expert" on occult the Prosecution brought in during the first trial earned his degree through a correspondance course.
  18. GreedoCMZ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 1999
    star 4
    Okay, no more abortion comments from me in this thread. Does this thread have any particular direction now anyways?
  19. TreeCave Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2001
    star 4
    The "expert" on occult the Prosecution brought in during the first trial earned his degree through a correspondance course.

    Obviously. Real Satanists, i.e. members of the Church of Satan in San Francisco, do not participate in bloody rituals or orgies. Real Satanists do not "worship Satan" - they are dedicated to exposing the hypocrisy they perceive in Christianity, that's all. It's just a belief - there's no criminal activity involved.

    If there are actual "Satan worshippers" out there, I don't believe they're an organized group of any sort. This widespread "satanic cult" figure that pops up in every issue of Weekly World News is pretty much just a myth.
  20. Jedi_Master201 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 5, 2001
    star 5
    "...they are dedicated to exposing the hypocrisy they perceive in Christianity, that's all."


    So it's okay for others to attack Christianity, but it's not okay for Christians to attack other religions?


    I just want to know one thing, TreeCave: Are you okay with what the Church of Satan is dedicated to?
  21. Kessel Runner Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 1999
    star 6
    Actually, as long as you are attacking the false behavior of a belief system (i.e. they say they are pacifists but always fight wars, etc.), then that is fine. The Church of Satan does that. They attack the fallacies of the operation of Christianity.
  22. GreedoCMZ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 1999
    star 4
    I don't think Christians should be hypocritical but I'm not sure attacking it from the vantage point of Satanism is the right approach either.
  23. Palpazzar Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 2000
    star 4
    What if those are only 'preceived' differences that don't actually exist? The US could be attacked for saying we want peace, but are always fighting wars. However, the truth may not be that way- we fight because we have to, not to take over the world.

  24. Kessel Runner Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 1999
    star 6
    Oh, I'm not saying I think the Church of Satan has the right approach, and I don't think TreeCave is either. But that is the tactic they chose. See, since outside of Christianity Satan doesn't exist, it's a real misnomer for anyone who isn't based in the Judeo-Christian ethic.
  25. TreeCave Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2001
    star 4
    JM, exposing hypocrisy is not an "attack" on Christianity. They believe what they believe, without taking any action on it. If that makes you feel attacked, maybe you have issues. Exposing hypocrisy is like weeding the garden - get the crap out so the good stuff can grow bigger and better.

    My point, which you seem to have missed, is that Satanists don't go about slaughtering cows under a new moon or doing naked orgy rituals in the fields of Kansas, a la Weekly World News reports. And they're very unlikely to have killed the way the "Memphis 3" supposedly did.

    But while we're on it, I'm a big fan of exposing hypocrisy - especially in things I claim to believe in or participate in. I can go on about hypocrisy in the film industry (which I used to work in, and may soon again) for just as many hours as I can go on about hypocrisy in Christianity. :)

    "I don't think Christians should be hypocritical but I'm not sure attacking it from the vantage point of Satanism is the right approach either. "

    Greedo, the point I was struggling to make is that that IS the vantage point of Satanism. They don't worship Satan. They don't sacrifice things. They're basically just humanists. The name "Church of Satan" is tongue in cheek.

    The myth that's built up around them is highly amusing. I suggest reading some works by Anton LaVey - or just go to their website, which is churchofsatan.com. Feel free to disagree with and dislike them - but you won't come away thinking they're murders.
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