So you think the US is in a moral downfall....

Okay, so it seems my post just vanished. Odd...

EDIT: Looks like I found it. Huh.

 

I agree with the above post. However, I do think that it has become far easier to be immoral in today's society than in the past. My grandfather was never offered drugs.

I find it ironic that if it hadn't been for LDS people, Las Vegas wouldn't be what it is today. I watched this documentary about members of the Church who started the town, and financed the early casinos.

 

My dad said when he was in high school (probably '54-'58) that he remembers there being one drug bust and that it was a very unusual thing.

 

GREAT POINT!!! Greedocmz. You didn't have drugs flooding our schools and society like we do today. Thanks to the freaking Hippie movement it's here now, and look at how many lives it's destroyed and how twisted things have become as a society.


You had a better sense of security and such back then, but now we don't. You could raise your kid and send them to school without worry about being shot, or having your kids addicted to damn drugs.

 

DARTHPIGFEET:

1) You need to tone down your post a little bit.

2) "Plus the 50's was a much better time to live in, and I only wish I did live back then. Things were a hell of a lot more quieter and simple."

How so? There is nothing "quiet and simple" about African-Americans being beaten by whites without consequences (in fact, if you believe some reports, police watched it happen and did nothing); African-Americans being forced to use separate restrooms and water fountains or sit in the back of the bus, or go to separate schools with inferior materials (I'll address your 1954 point in a minute). There is also nothing "quiet and simple" about employers refusing to hire women of childbearing age, or refusing to pay any woman what she is worth; universities refusing to admit women; or lawmakers refusing to allow anyone, even married couples, access to birth control before 1965. There is also nothing "quiet and simple" about young women going to back alleys and having abortions on folding tables using dirty knives and coat hangers, and often either bleeding to death or dying of infection afterwards. There is also nothing "quiet and simple" about an insane idiot in Congress trying to ruin the careers of some celebrities because of their political beliefs.

As far as 1954: that was the year that Brown v. Board of Education was passed, but do you honestly think school desegregation was peaceful? The National Guard had to be called out to schools in order for the African-American students to be admitted without having the doors blocked by white students. Also, it certainly didn't happen everywhere in 1954. I live in North Carolina. My parents both graduated from high school in the late '60s, and both attended segregated schools.

TripleB: Thanks, I appreciate it.

Regarding Kim Gandy: I didn't see her on television; I don't watch too many TV interviews. I'm glad Pat Robertson is sending money from his own pocket to help the Afghans, and I don't necessarily support everything NOW stands for, any more than I support every tenant of any other organization. However, I think it is wrong to say that all NOW cares about is furthering Clinton's agenda. Clinton has been out of office for over a year now.

Coolguy:

"My grandfather was never offered drugs."

Do you live in the South? Mine was offered homemade moonshine, which, in my opinion, is worse.

"I find it ironic that if it hadn't been for LDS people, Las Vegas wouldn't be what it is today. I watched this documentary about members of the Church who started the town, and financed the early casinos. "

LOL! I love it. (They probably would never wave at each other in those casinos, though. )

 

But it strikes me that BEFORE 9/11, Clinton was heavily criticized for ordering missile attacks against Osama Bin Laden, supposedly to detract attention from the Lewinski scandal. Since 9/11 the story has changed: Now Clinton didn't do enough.

Very true. And at least in the media, these criticisms seem to be coming from the exact same mouths.

To say that it was legal (I'm not sure how prevalent the abhorrent crime of spousal rape was in the 1950's or any other "Golden" era) almost makes it sound like husbands were given "permission" to rape. But then again, wives were probably also given permission to rape their husbands.

Greedo, most states had laws which explicitly stated that a wife has no legal right to deny sex to her husband. That sounds like it was "legal" rather than "not illegal" to me. And I've never read any law that stated that husbands have no right to deny sex to their wives. This is a subject I studied in some depth back in college, but I don't offhand have any links or books to refer you to.

Plus the 50's was a much better time to live in, and I only wish I did live back then. Things were a hell of a lot more quieter and simple.

Then again, my mother - who remembers the 50's well - said that decade was scary as hell between the serious threat of nuclear war ("We will bury you!" with a shaking fist) and the Communist witch hunts. Just offering a view from someone who was actually there, since neither you nor I were.

Re: your opinion on the hippie movement... I would agree it didn't do what it set out to. I would point out, however, that a lot of the hippie movement was in direct reaction to a bunch of government guys drafting citizens to fight a war no one on earth believed in. The govt's behavior in the Vietnam war showed a marked lack of morality, too, so I don't think blaming the hippies alone captures the full picture.

Kimball, nice point about the polarizing effect, very true. When I worked in film, I saw the same thing. Some of the most generous, loving people you'll meet are right in the middle of that soul-sucking, use-you-up-and-throw-you-out industry.

Just a thought to all of you who assume narcotics are "immoral".... That's a pretty blanket statement. I mean, is it the illegality that bothers you? Is it the altered state of consciousness - in which case, you should also find drinking immoral, as well as possibly taking certain legal prescription drugs that alter consciousness? Or is it the stuff people do under the influence? In which case you should also find drinking immoral because, as I said above, it's involved in 86% of all violent crimes. I would really appreciate some specificity here.

 

Oh yeah, that whole constant-threat-of-nuclear-armageddon business. I'd forgotten about that.

 

Darth Geist: You can do this all you want, but the fear was very real.

My mother said that as a child, she was afraid every time a plane flew overhead, because she thought the Soviets were going to bomb us. My father said that he remembers during the Cuban Missile Crisis, sitting with his friends in the cafeteria and wondering, in all seriousness, if they were going to be alive the next day.

I grew up in the 80s, and still remember the remnants of some of this. The film "The Day After" scared the living hell out of me. So did the Sting song "Russians", and fallout shelter signs.

TreeCave:

"in which case, you should also find drinking immoral, as well as possibly taking certain legal prescription drugs that alter consciousness? Or is it the stuff people do under the influence? In which case you should also find drinking immoral because, as I said above, it's involved in 86% of all violent crimes. "

Amen to that. I find it very interesting that some of the very people who are so anti-drug, have no problem with the legality of a drug that has destroyed more lives than probably any other.

 

I don't need to tone down nothing. Your the one talking about stuff I didn't even mention. I'm talking about Hippies. Civil Rights and Womens rights are another thread and another debate. It was good for those things to happen, but my God things were a hell of a lot safer back in the 50's then today. You cannot deny that.

Second you know what I should say to your comments is; first off I'm not Black or a woman so what the hell would I care anyway if I was living in the 50's. In the words of Humphrey Bogart in Casablanca "I stick my neck out for nobody.". Your taking your morals and values of today and putting them into effect back then which is wrong. People got stepped on back in the 50's. Just as people got stepped on in the 60's, 70's, 80's and 90's and in the 21st century. So what's your point Anakin Girl?

There will always be someone being oppressed and such in our society.

I'm talking from my own personal view point here, that I would have ENJOYED living back then, because things were for who I am now back then peaceful and simple. I was living in a much safer and stable less drugged out liberal society. It's a paradise in my book. I've loved the Frank Kapra look of the 40's and 50's and will forever love it. I love the music and everything about it which made it wonderful, not the bad things, because like you have pointed out there were bad things. But bad things happen everyday and were not stuck in one decade. I'm being optomistic while your languishing through depressing stuff.

I liked the fact that I didn't have to leave the theatre after the show was over, or getting my soda for a 5 cents. Take me back to 1955 and I could live and die a happy man.

I hope I got my point across to you. But as I originally said in my FIRST POST. It was the Hippie movement which caused the problems were having today.

 

Well, if I woke up and I was in Orange County, 1955.....

I am a hispanic american, so I might suffer some stigma and discrimination. Still, I would find a job and get myself up to Las Vegas, because as a dedicated sports fan, I have a pretty good idea who is going to win the World Series, College Football National Title....and some of other things in the next 50 years......

 

and a time when the smoke was so thick in that theater that you could barely see the movie. Yeah, sounds like a great time.

 

Treecave

"Very true. And at least in the media, these criticisms seem to be coming from the exact same mouths. [about Clinton's attacks]"

Which mouths?

Is there a link you can give me for your 86% stat?

 

There's something kind of sad about anybody under the age of 30 screaming themselves haorse trying to defend the 60s/hippies/baby boomers. Get your own friggin' life, you know what I'm sayin'?

 

Fierce, the 86% stat came from a class I recently took to get my state alcohol server's license. They put you through a 5 hour class on how to tell when someone's drunk, how easily you can get sued for them hurting someone and all that jazz. That's where it came from, and no, I don't have a link.

As to "whose mouths", I probably should have phrased differently. I have heard a few people I'm acquainted with come down on both sides (back then, that Clinton was just bombing to save face during the impeachment, and now, that he didn't do enough). As for media figures, they're all pretty interchangeable and useless to me so I don't retain their names, but I know I've heard several news commentators telling their co-anchors or people they are interviewing, "But back then, you sat right here and said Clinton was just bombing to save his approval ratings, and it was overkill - now you say he wasn't doing enough?" I was referring to the general impession, rather than specifics.

 

DARTHPIGFEET:

"...first off I'm not Black or a woman so what the hell would I care anyway if I was living in the 50's"

So to hell with the rest of the world, huh?

"I've loved the Frank Kapra look of the 40's and 50's and will forever love it."

And you think that was real?

"I'm being optomistic while your languishing through depressing stuff. "

Why not do that for today's society?

AJA:

"There's something kind of sad about anybody under the age of 30 screaming themselves haorse trying to defend the 60s/hippies/baby boomers."

For one thing, I'm not under 30; for another thing, I think it's even sadder that anyone under the age of 30, or 50 for that matter, would talk about how wonderful the 50s were. They weren't there, any more that any 20-somethings were around during the 60s.

 

Frank Capra look is great, but it's just that....the look. If you take the American Beauty tagline and "look closer" you'll see the ugliness there, just as it is here now.

 

We can't really do anything about this stuff except trying to live our lives as considerate and thoughtful people, and doing our best to make the right decisions at the right time. Hopefully, over time the people who can't handle the basic concept of dignity and respect towards others will die out. Now as far as Falwell and Robertson goes, they are both morons. Many people on the left probably jumped for joy when they said that stuff, "Finally the world will understand all republicans and or christians are jerks just like these two jerks!" People on the right pretended to be offended, some people on the right (like me) who may have been slightly apologetic for them in the past now want them to disappear from public life becasuse they suck. Wasn't it a gay guy who took the lead in overtaking the hijackers in that plane over Pennsylvania, crashing it in the wilderness so it wouldn't destroy the pentagon or capitol? This is the guy God was punishing? Now i'm rambling.

 

What I want to know is how a Star Wars message board become the place where the last five people in the country who don't realize things have changed get together and pretend it's still the 90s and the WTC never happened.

 

Treecave, the reason I ask for links and such is because when I make similar arguments, I'm held to the same standard. If you can't give even one name, you should be careful before accusing people of hypocrisy. The "straw man" accuastion has already been made once in this thread...

I won't be able to use the 86% stat in the future because I'll be hounded to death over it if I don't find a link. I'm looking to see what I can find.

 

cy, it's when you ramble like that, I think maybe not all Republican/Conservatives are satan's spawn


Seriously though, getting back to the title of the topic, I'd have to say that the world is more complicated now than it was 50 years ago, just as it was more complicated in the 50's compared to the 1900's. The nature of living in a technologically progressing society is that each generation has new pressures placed upon it, some are associated with morality, some aren't. But, to say that the U.S. is in a moral downfall neglects to consider the "inflation" of pressions. Just as you have to adjust dollars for inflation when discussion cost of living between time periods, you need to do the same for Morality, IMHO.

 

cydonia: You rock.

AJA: I'm not following you.

Of course September 11 happened, and of coures no American in his or her right mind (not to mention people of other nationalities) will ever forget it. However, it happened because Osama Bin Laden and the Taliban hate Americans, because we do not practice their version of Islam (which, BTW, I separate from the peace-loving version I understand Islam to be), I read an article several pages long about why Bin Laden hates Americans--a list of reasons going back to the late 70s and the Camp David accords. None of the reasons, however, mentioned homosexuality.

Darth Fierce: I can't back up TreeCave's 86 percent claim right off the top of my head, but I've seen numerous websites with a 50 percent statistic, which is definitely high enough in my opinion. I'll post sources to those stats probably first thing in the morning--I've got to look for them first.

 

I know the Capra look isn't real. If I had the choice though I would live back then rather then now.


As for your comments on me giving a damn. Well think about it for a moment. If I was living in the 50's as a young 22 year old white male. The way I was raised and such would not notice the second class Donna Reed treatment of women, or the treatment of African Americans for that matter now would it. I wouldn't have the same moral values that we have today. I would live my life the way it would be lived back then, and would have those values, not yours.

Does this FINALLY CLEAR up the confusion to what I'm talking about. I would probably be treated like a second class citizen in the 1950's and probably be deemed a Communist and be ruined if I shared the same ideals that I do have today, which by the way are very much like yours. I believe in womens rights and I believe in African Americans being treated just as well as the next man or woman to an extent. I don't favor affirmative action, because it's no longer needed.

I just like the time period that's all. The same is for those people who wish they lived in the damn Wild West days or Medieval times.

 

Here is a report Prepared for the Assistant Attorney General's National Symposium on Alcohol Abuse and Crime

Based on this compilation and new analysis of data on alcohol
and crime, we know that nearly 4 in 10 violent victimizations
involve use of alcohol, about 4 in 10 fatal motor vehicle
accidents are alcohol-involved; and about 4 in 10 offenders,
regardless of whether they are on probation, in local jail, or
in State prison, self-report that they were using alcohol at the
time of the offense.

Looks like the number is closer to 40% than 86%, which seems much more realistic to me. I'm no fan of drinking, but we do have to get the facts straight.

The report also has some good news:

There are, however, a number of positive indicators that
alcohol-related crime is generally decreasing and that most of
those in need of treatment are receiving it. Violence between
current and former spouses, boyfriends, and girlfriends is
especially likely to involve alcohol abuse, and all forms of
violence against intimates, including homicide, have been
declining in recent years. In addition, rates of arrest for DUI
have declined by 24% since 1990. During the last 10 years, the
number of highway fatalities attributable to alcohol-related
accidents has dropped by about 7,000 annually, a 29% decrease.


In any event, the correlation is obviously there. I don't think we can outlaw it, but we CAN educate people, and it's my belief that if you are caught in a crime involving drugs or alcohol, the law should require you go to rehab, on your own dollar, and be placed on infinite probation.

But this is off topic, I apologize.

 

kessel, a.g,

My dad was my age in the '50s. He says it was pretty nice. He says it was really like "Happy Days". Well, i'm sure part of it was nice. People weren't so scared of other people, i think respect and courtesey were kind of expected of people. They also thought Elvis was satanic, that men and women slept in separate beds in the same bedroom. The 60s gave us amazing art, amazing new social ideas, and amazing new self indulgence and backwards utopian thinking that is still in effect today. Lately i've been realizing that life is ALWAYS a trade off.

I'm not sure if this has been brought up, but we're all talking about the movie "Pleasantville"! Whoa!

Edit- i think pigfeet is saying he's "retro". I went through a fifties phaze.

 

It really was like "Happy Days"??? Oy! That alone is reason enough for me to not have any desire to have lived it.