So you think the US is in a moral downfall....

AJA:

"I also think things are beginning to improve, in spite of people like anakin_girl. "

I'll get back to you on that one when my computer stops flaming.

"...particularly in terms of the degradation of the family and the influence of left-wing extremists like NOW. "

If by "degradation of family," you mean the refusal to preserve, at all costs, including the cost of abuse and misery, the traditional nuclear family of mommy, daddy, brother, sister, and dog, I don't think it's such a bad thing. By that I mean that I don't think it's a bad thing that women are able to get out of miserable or even abusive marriages without fear of being shamed; or that people are now able to love who they choose, even someone of the same gender or a different race; or that perfectly natural nights of passion have fewer consequences, and the consequences that are there, are less devastating.

 

Human society is not static it always changes, everything you see now has happened before.

The one difference between now and 30 years ago is that many things are not hidden anymore. Women don't have to stay in abusive marriages because they can't support themselves, people don't hide things such as child abuse to preserve appearances etc...

This just goes back to an instinct of glorifying the past and glossing over anything that is wrong with it. In 30 years you'll probably be sitting around going "ohh.... remember the good old days of the 90's?"

 

Wow...to the women we must listen.

 

Nice points, Windflyer.

I don't personally see what's so great and hallowed about the "traditional nuclear family". Who made this rule that it's the best way to raise children? It's certainly not how the Hebrews lived in Biblical times, so it can't even be a Christian concept.

I like the idea of a communal system, where children have a lot of influence and support from a lot of adults, instead of being stuck with just two - who may be great, but also may be very neurotic. I think it could makes the kids more independent, more able to sort out what they think (rather than just being programmed by the people upon whom they depend for their very livelihood), and better adjusted.

 

Unfortunately child abuse is still hidden and women still remain in abusive marriages. There is probably enough awareness now to help some more people out but there is still so much bad that goes on.

As far as child abuse goes I was at a message board where someone a couple days ago there told about always being abused by each of their parents and she said she has talked with counselors at her school about it and maybe even called the police and no one has done much of anything and she doesn't have any relatives she can move in with.

As far as wife abuse goes there is a girl at my work who has been physically abused by her fiance. She finally got tired of it and gave him his ring back with a note in an envelope but he never even opened it up but would stalk her and somehow find out where she was (like showing up at a doctor's office when she gets out of an appt. even though she never told he she would be there) and harassing her and saying, "Whatever you have against me now you'll get over it." Finally she started wearing the ring again but was too embarassed to even tell anyone at work about it. Her sister absolutely hates the guy for what he has done to her but somehow he has this mystical power over her that keeps her in the relationship. About a week ago she was telling me about how she's getting married in the summer but she is a little worried because she is going to have to do the dishes and housework, etc. In other words, she was relegating herself to being barefoot and pregnant and thought that's what marriage was. I said, "If you each do your fair share then everything will be fine, but if it's him telling you you have to do it all to be a good wife then you will be miserable and you don't have to put yourself in that position."

And propaganda of Pleasantville aside, it is highly erroneous to think that all marriages a long time ago (whatever that means; I guess we tend to think of the '50s) were abusive. It seems like people here tend to think that marriages used to have a great tendency to be repressive to the wife but that everything got better once society got enlightened in the '80s or something. Of course I think that some positive trends have occurred but people tend to make the situation appear way too black and white.


And when people promote the idea of a nuclear family (I guess I'm trying to speak for others here) I think they are saying that it is better than being Murphy Brown and deciding to be a single parent (as opposed to being a single parent because your partner left or died or was abusive, etc.). I don't believe that they are saying there should not be other supportive adults around.

 

Perhaps it's because of the outcome of World War II and (later) the downfall of the Soviet Union. Without some great big "Evil Empire" for us to focus our attention on and scrutinize, America as a whole begins to look inward. Then its own faults become much more apparent.

You'd like to think that everything was all hunky-dory in suburbia following the events of September 11th, but I doubt it. Everyone was just too busy rallying against the Taliban to notice.

 

hmm, good thread. I'll throw my $.02 in. I am a child of baby boomers (aka hippies). While they habe lived a fun life, spme of them have forgotten one important thing, they are parents. I have a friend whose parents still haven't grown up. The only real parent the kid has had is the TV. They would often leave him at home in front of the TV while they went out somewhere.

Now I feel an opposite trend is coming, one that will make the children of the baby boomers (Gen X or Y), more family oriented(sp?). It is in reaction to the parents who were more "me oriented". There has been trends like this throughout history....

1920's Swingers gave birth to the 50's family who gave birth to the 70's hippies who gave birth to the late 90's and 2000's probably more family generation.

I wonder if my kids will be hippies?

 

I agree with Palpazzar. From what TreeCave has said, we've ALWAYS been in a moral downfall, it's just different kind of downfall than in was 200 years ago. IOW, we're still doing the same crappy things to each other. Only instead of burning witches, we're dragging homosexuals behind people's cars. Instead of beating slaves, we'rea assassinating MLK. If you ask me, we may be no worse than we were when our country was first formed, but we're sure as hell no better.

 

Just read through this thread...

I agree with those who have pointed out the history of such a question. As far back as you can read in history, someone has bemoaned the downward spiral of "morality". (Although personally I think we're better off today than at any other point in Western civilization.)

PS. "Liberals suck" is always such a helpful comment.

 

Yodave27: I am also the child of baby boomers. My mother, however, is a people-pleaser and never went through a rebellious phase. She remains to this day an open-minded centrist, with some conservative and some liberal ideals, as she always has. My father used to be very liberal; when he and my mother met, he was an ERA supporter and against the Vietnam War, not to mention being a Led Zeppelin and Steppenwolf fan. However, he changed dramatically in the early 70s, a combination of getting married, my being born, and serving in the military. He is passionately conservative now, with the same World War II generation ideals that his parents hold.

I grew up in a good home with loving parents; I have always felt that the only problem with my upbringing was the repression I felt, with my father telling me how to dress, whether or not I could wear makeup and how much, what I could and couldn't get pierced, what color my hair could be and how I could style it, who I could and couldn't date. My grades also had to be perfect--below an "A" was unacceptable. He was very authoritarian, which comes from being an officer in the military.

How has this affected me? I am a perfectionist still, as far as academics, both from what I expect from myself and from my students. However, as soon as I moved out of the house, at age 17, I made a point of doing whatever I wanted to do, and 13 years later, little has changed. I still wear skimpy black clothes and have body piercings. I lived with my partner before we married. I am a member of several liberal organizations, including the ACLU and NOW.

My father and I get along great, and we have gotten to the point where we agree to disagree about many political and social issues; however, it has taken a long time and there were some bumpy spots.

Will my kids be hippies? If they turn out the opposite from their mother, they'll be raging conservatives.

My point in saying all this is that I believe your upbringing has more to do with it than your generation. And I'm not dissing you; I know you were speaking in generalities.

I hope our children's generation doesn't turn into another 50s, because if that's the case, I'll be one of those old people that cringes when looking at the younger generation.

 

Instead of beating slaves, we're assassinating MLK.

One person did that and it was about three decades ago. That's a lot different than institutionalized slavery.

 

Alright, instead of slavery, the KKK hangs random blacks, beats them, and 40 years ago, the police force would beat blacks marching for equality.

 

I agree.

 

That's my point a_g, each generation will rebel against their parents. For some that means becoming liberal, for other it means becoming conservatives.
its a trend that will continue for as long as we have teenagers like me.

 

hmmm, well my whole family is liberal, and so am I. If I rebelled it was just to take it a teeny bit further.

 

I think drugs (including alchol) are the biggest problem we have today. I recently visited the State courts and had a chance to talk to some of the judges, and they said that 90% of the cases they hear are due, directly or indirectly, to the use of drugs.

The other problem I think America has is the downfall of the nuclear family. The divorce rate and acceptance of 'alternative' families are not improvements. Did anybody see John Stosel's(sp?) thing on 20/20 last night? I think he is a great journalist because he talks about things that most won't, even if I do disagree with him some of the time. Anyway, he was talking about how celebraties that promote getting children without any father needed. Sure, Rosie'O, the fat chick on The Practice, Elizablth Hurly, and Allie McBeal all have more than enouph money to spoil kids, there are so many others that don't have the money for lawyers to be able to adopt. It also sends the wrong message to others, that single parenting is a GOOD thing. It isn't. It is much better to have a father, despite what idiots that make in it showbiz say. I am not even going to get into why homosexuals should not be parents, much less be allowed to adopt a child when there are huge waiting lists of couples ready to adopt.

 

"The divorce rate and acceptance of 'alternative' families are not improvements. "

They are if it means that people get out of unhappy, repressive, or even abusive marriages, and if people are allowed to love who they choose without ostracism from society. There is no reason for the restrictions that used to be placed on every family that didn't fit into a certain mold.

As far as famous single people adopting kids--I don't think that necessarily sends a message that being a single parent is a better alternative than being married. I think these people just want kids of their own and for whatever reason, they don't have partners.

 

Coolguy I have issues with some of your comments. I was raised in a single parent household, and I know I am better because of it. I think that the blanket statements suggesting that having both parents is always better is a dangerous thing. My cousin's parents never divorced and she is a psychological mess because of it.

As long as there are strong parent figures, it doesn't matter who those people are.

 

There are cases where divorce is necessary, but for the most part divorce is taken too lightly today. "Irreconcilable differences" is the most vague reason for divorce. You don't like what youre spouse did? Welcome to marriage, you'll find there are many things about your spouse you'll learn to dislike, even hate. Does that mean you should get a divorce, absolutley not.

Not all marriages are abusive.

 

Without some great big "Evil Empire" for us to focus our attention on and scrutinize, America as a whole begins to look inward.

I agree. The first time abortion played a really big role in a presidential election was '88 - after Communism was gone and they needed a new enemy. As you say, we "looked inward" and found a new issue to debate.

I asked earlier for someone who finds illegal narcotics immoral to get specific. Too many people say, "I hate drugs" but think drinking is just fine, and have a much different attitude toward a Valium addict than a coke addict - what is the difference? The illegality? Anybody want to take this question on? I'm asking it sincerely because, if someone doesn't explain the apparent contradiction, I'm left with no option but to guess that folks have been so well programmed by media hype to think "Drugs are super bad, kiddies!" that they haven't really thought it through for themselves. I would love a real answer on this instead of having to guess.

[Coolguy, I believe I would have been much better adjusted with no father than with the father I had. I've talked to many who feel that way.

That said, I fully support single people who want to adopt children on their own (I've never seen anyone criticize Lucas for it, for some reason). I also support the right to have a child on your own, but if you CAN adopt one, I find that highly preferable. But as a single person myself, I would NOT take on a child unless I had a lot of family around to also influence and support that child. Then again, that holds true even if I was having a child within a marriage - I would never submit a child to just me and a man who relates to me, as we would both most likely come from neurotic homes ourselves.

 

"You don't like what youre spouse did? Welcome to marriage, you'll find there are many things about your spouse you'll learn to dislike, even hate. "

Very, very true. This is coming from eight years of marriage here.

However, the problem with the way things used to be is that no one could get out of any marriage, whether due to "irreconcilable differences" or physical or emotional abuse, without being shamed or ostracized. Not to mention that men could sexually abuse their wives without any consequences from the courts.

 

For the record I'm totally against drugs, alcohol, & tobacco. I have never used any of them and don't plan on ever using any of them.

 

You know, the pendulum swings from one extreme to the other, then it finds balance.

We went from a society where no one had pot, coke, etc. and no one could divorce even for the best of reasons, to one where all these things are overly prevalent. It'll even out in a few more years.

Has anybody hear heard much about the CIA's role in smuggling narcotics into the US urban areas? I've seen a lot of legitimate (as opposed to scary militia gazettes that also report three-headed dragons living in the White House) press on the subject, but I still feel there are a lot of gaps in the story.

 

I didn't mean to make such a blanket statement, as there are exceptions to every rule. However, I think that having a father is important, and although there may be some bad fathers and mothers out there, today's divorce rate is due to the fact that people often don't work through a marriage and just quit. Abuse in any situation is bad, but I have a hard time belive that 50% of couples have a abusive relationship. It has been scientificaly proven time and again that a good nuclear family is the best way to raise a child.

It's not that I think homosexuality should be a crime, it is that I do not think that a homosexual home is the way to raise a child. Having 2 mommies or 2 daddies is not ok. It goes against nature. You might argue that homosexual relations don't neccisarly go against nature, but having a child is something different. It is physicaly impossible for that relationship to produce offspring, and it should stay that way. There are so many couples that want to adopt, I don't see why they should get children.

 

Coolguy, you make a common mistake in that "against nature" comment. There are many species where homsexuality is common, and it isn't uncommon to even see male cats, dogs, and other pets take on "mother" roles, even for species that are not their own.


I think as long as there are strong role models, those who can help a child understand how to treat others and how to reach their potential, that's all that matters. I had my single mom, my grandmother, and I was invovled in Big Brothers/Big Sisters. And if I had been raised by my mom and dad, I would have had a role model in the home who drank too much and had affairs.