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Lit Societies in SW

Discussion in 'Literature' started by General Immodet, Dec 17, 2012.

  1. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

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    Nov 28, 2000
    Troll. :p


    Misa ab iPhono meo.
     
    Zorrixor and JoinTheSchwarz like this.
  2. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 9

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    Sep 2, 2012
    In which case, how come people, like Obi-Wan, call it that?

    "Anakin, my allegiance is to the Republic- to democracy."
     
  3. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

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    Nov 28, 2000
    I don't know, why do people call Vader a Jedi or confuse the two? Because people are stupid.

    We know better.


    Misa ab iPhono meo.
     
  4. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 9

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Obi-Wan's stupid?
     
  5. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

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    Nov 28, 2000
    As much as he is clumsy.



    And random.


    (PS an appeal to authority = logical fallacy. Try to use your own reasoning to demonstrate your assertions, not the hearsay of others)


    Misa ab iPhono meo.
     
  6. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 9

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    Sep 2, 2012
    In the context of the movies, the Republic not being "a democracy" does raise a number of logical questions though.
     
  7. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

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    Nov 28, 2000
    Like what? It's the movies that have the Chommell Sector senators appointed by monarchs (though elected themselves). Kenobi himself says that senators are not to be trusted -- that they're corrupt, etc.

    What's to say that unaccountability wasn't a big factor behind popular Rimkin support for the CIS? What does TCW tell us about the Seppie Senate -- were they elected?


    Misa ab iPhono meo.
     
  8. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 9

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Appeal to Authority would usually be "George Lucas says the Republic is a democracy, therefore it is"
     
  9. instantdeath

    instantdeath Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 22, 2010
    Hey, Obi-Wan's not...

    *watches TCW

    Never mind.

    I still have to wonder how democracy in a galaxy of millions of sentient species would function efficiently and fairly. Though I suppose it didn't :p
     
  10. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 9

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Might have simply meant elections at one or more stages in the process- Supreme Chancellor elected from the Senators- possibly Senator elected from the ranks of Planetary Representatives for that sector? With several hundred planets in a sector, only one of which gets a Senator, who represents the whole sector, there'd need to be a way of resolving it.
     
  11. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

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    Nov 28, 2000
    Yeah but do we have any evidence of that actually occurring? You'd think that there would be some actual filmic evidence to support that, but there isn't even much EU support for the notion of an elected Senate.

    Many Core Worlds don't even have representative bodies to begin with -- so they're doubly undemocratic.

    Kenobi's a philosopher, not a statesman. He doesn't need to know what he's on about -- especially during a heated exchange.


    Misa ab iPhono meo.
     
  12. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 9

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    Sep 2, 2012
    I recall planetary elections in the New Jedi Order books- one of which Leia works to subvert since, while it's an old friend, it's also a Vong appeaser, who's running for office.
     
  13. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

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    Nov 28, 2000
    ...


    Misa ab iPhono meo.
     
  14. AdmiralNick22

    AdmiralNick22 Fleet Admiral of Literature star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    May 28, 2003
    Jello, for every confirmed undemocratic Core World you list, you know that I can match you with democratic ones. You tend to overlook them or marginalized them, but you and I have danced this dance before. :p

    --Adm. Nick
     
  15. instantdeath

    instantdeath Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jul 22, 2010
    Do we have any idea, from some source book or another, the requirements for a planet to receive a representative in the Senate? Or how many members of the Senate there are? I can't imagine it could be more than a few thousand, which is such a tiny, tiny portion of the galaxy... certainly far from anything resembling equal representation.
     
  16. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 9

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    Sep 2, 2012
    There's something like 70 million worlds "with populations high enough to qualify for some kind of membership" - and nearly a billion systems "with somebody living in them" and just over 1.5 million "full member worlds" in The Essential Atlas. And just over 1000 sectors, after they were reformed.
     
  17. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

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    Nov 28, 2000
    TPM stuff, either commentary or ICS, told us 1024 senators.

    That's not a contradiction of my point though: namely that many are not, and we don't know whet proportion of worlds have representative bodies which provide for the selection of senators, nor which of those are democratic in the first place. More importantly though: most examples we have show us senators who are not, in fact, elected

    I cannot think of any elected senators off hand (at least for the post-Ruusan Republic; we know Coruscant's senator had to campaign. In TOR but not who she was campaigning for ) and while I'm sure they must exist, we don't see them for the most prominent worlds -- worlds which most strongly represent the republican traditions.



    Misa ab iPhono meo.
     
  18. Chewbacca89

    Chewbacca89 Jedi Master star 5

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    Oct 25, 2012

    The Empire was kinda Fascist...
     
  19. Chewbacca89

    Chewbacca89 Jedi Master star 5

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    Oct 25, 2012
    Why do people think the United States is a democracy? Its not. Its a Republic. A democracy would mean that everyone voted on every issue (with 1 vote apiece) to decide on laws, ect. A Republic is when the people elect others (reps, senators, ect.) to decide those rules for them.
     
  20. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

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    Nov 28, 2000
    The Empire has fascistic tendencies to it, but not fit anything to do with that wiki extract.

    WEG did a good job with it. Just look at the ISB or COMPNOR in general.


    Misa ab iPhono meo.
     
  21. Chewbacca89

    Chewbacca89 Jedi Master star 5

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    Oct 25, 2012
    It does fit the whole racialism conflict. Also stood as a symbol of collectivism and power.

    Also that is a little more reliable than a wiki page.
     
  22. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 9

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Republics combine elements of multiple systems. "Pure democracy" is extremely rare, but "systems with a democratic element" were much more common.
     
  23. JoinTheSchwarz

    JoinTheSchwarz JC Head Admin & Community Manager star 8 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2002
    The Empire is a melange of the trappings of authoritarian systems, real or fantastic, from the sorcerous Sith to...
    Gestapo
    Nazi Party/Falange/Politbyuro
     
  24. Reveen

    Reveen Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 4, 2012
    I was always under the impression that the Old Republic was more of a United Nations type mediating organization. The idea that the senate is an actual governing body that can pass galaxy spanning legislature scares me.

    Atleast when the Empire arbitrarily screws you over, it does it honestly and efficiently.
     
  25. MercenaryAce

    MercenaryAce Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 10, 2005
    Let me open with this: I understand that voting is not the most important thing. The most important things are the separation of power, rule of law, and guaranteed rights - a tyranny of the majority. And yes, the history of the United States has been a clear reminder that even these things can't totally prevent oppression and atrocities.

    So there is a reason I was Imperial instead of Stormcloak in Skyrim despite their popular support (playing a Dark Elf certainly helped I admit), and I have a lot of respect for Imperial China, at least after the first dynasty or so.

    Still, I find these things are better served by a representative government than an absolutist one - pretty much by definition, a dictator or absolute monarch has all the power and is above the law, which makes protecting rights difficult to say the least.

    And in any case, the Galactic Empire readily and repeatedly showed how little it cared for any of those things. The Empire had a constitution, but it served little purpose other than toilet paper for Imperial Officials - it was so unimportant they didn't even bother to update after disbanding the senate, a pretty major change in many ways, which significantly helped speed the Empire's fall since it meant there was no legal way to determine Palpatine's successor.

    As for the issue of security - I have been thinking more on this. While it is certainly true you don't want to have to live in fear of being killed by your neighbor, but if you are instead living in fear of being killed by the secret police in the middle of the night, then it isn't much of an improvement. Matter of fact, its worse, since you can defend yourself from your neighbor more easily than you can fight secret police and all the power behind them. And if your neighbor can get the secret police to come after you just by starting some rumors or making a false report, then you still live in fear of him/her. This is my problem with any government that tries to justify itself with "Order" - they treat order as an ends in and of itself, and forget why people want order in the first place.

    Which brings me to another criticism of the Empire - there is little or no control over the use of force. Take for example Alderaan. Even if we take the position that the Emperor did not approve of the situation, the fact that a governor was allowed to blow up a core founder without any kind of official permission and a star system's mass worth of red tape is a pretty damning indictment of the Empire. It would be as if a USA submarine captain could just go and nuke Richmond on a whim.

    And while that is the most extreme case, we see this a lot in Star Wars - Imperial officers and officials destroy civilian populations (up to entire planets via bombardment), arrange for the overthrow of local governments (sometimes for reasons as simple and petty as to increase their own checks, as we saw in that Boba Fett comic), or enslave locals to preform hard labor, often hazardous in nature, in flagrant violation of Imperial Law. There is rarely any indication at all that the perpetrators of these actions had any fear of punishment from their higher ups whatsoever, even though they often act without permission. And when they are punished, it is more often because they were embezzling or some higher up wanted control of the profits himself.

    Which brings me to Jello's response to my last post - that is what is nice about democracy. Or if you are going to be nitpicky about terminology, any system where you can vote for your representatives. It gives people some recourse to abuse other "suck it up or armed rebellion". You can vote those responsible out of office, or at least those people who do nothing to curb the corruption of appointed officials. And, when you are protected by law against violence, you can protest, and petition, and argue your case in courts. When the populace has a say in how the government operates, there is more incentive for even a greedy politician to keep their best interests in mind. When they don't, there is much incentive for reedy or fanatical leaders to exploit the people, to increase their own wealth and power in the short run at the long term expense of the nation.

    So while the Galactic Republic had many flaws, the Empire did nothing to improve those flaws, and made many of them worse.

    I think the Empire's economic system fit pretty well: how they nationalized a lot of industry in order to benefit a handful of carefully chosen corporate allies, for example.