I am troubled by what I perceive to be most discussions of Vergere, or the philosophy of Star Wars and the Force in general, as barely scratching the surface. My initial premise for a thread was to ask if, over a decade later, Traitor ultimately failed as a novel in what Matthew Stover set out to do. Questions are raised, and instead of answering them, a lot of fans and subsequent EU publications chose to interpret these questions as a philosophy in itself, one which wasn't keeping with "Jedi orthodoxy." A few questions I have for folks are the following: What was Vergere teaching Jacen? Is this what Jacen really learned? If not, what did he learn? What was the significance of what was being taught, and what was learned? Why was it important? I'm going to cheat and presume at least one answer that I saw in another thread: if Vergere was teaching Jacen there is no external dark side and only an internal one, what is the significance of this? Did Jacen learn it? How did he apply it if he did? How about the ethics idea I've seen: if Vergere taught Jacen that action is equally important to intent or more so, why? Didn't Jacen already know this? He didn't want Anakin to fire Centerpoint. Isn't that Jacen prioritizing action over intent? Are we sure Vergere was teaching Jacen that at all or are we getting too fixated on the Socratic method? Folks, we're going to go deep here. No scratching the surface.