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Lit SOD: Save Our Darth - Darth Vader

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Ulicus , Jul 11, 2008.

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  1. Katana_Geldar

    Katana_Geldar Jedi Grand Master star 8

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    Mar 3, 2003
    And it's such a trip being the Vader of that era [face_devil]
     
  2. Ulicus

    Ulicus Lapsed Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jul 24, 2005
    It's good to see Vader so supported! :D

    Should be, yes. But I've yet to see him portrayed in such a fashion. :mad:

    I think a considerable problem is that much of the authorship seems determined to approach from the angle of: "Poor Vader, he's not as strong as he could have been. Pity him." As opposed to the infinitely more inspiring: "Even crippled, Vader has become one of the most powerful Dark Lords of the Sith to ever exist. Be thankful Obi-Wan maimed him when he did!"

    One of my favourite moments in Dark Lord was the part where Palpatine said that, despite Vader having been crippled, there *wasn't anyone stronger than him out there*. With the exception of Luke and Leia, I want that to be *true* - which is why I'll have a problem if TFU pushes the idea that Starkiller can surpass Vader on us.

    I've got comments on some of the other stuff that's been brought up (especially on depicting Vader with some more esoteric abilities), but I really have to go to work now. :_|
     
  3. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    I understand your position on Starkiller but I've actually always viewed that as amping up Vader's strength. Starkiller is a Pureblood Jedi in the Hogwarts sense, but the fact is that the vast majority of his awesome power comes from being Darth Vader's student.

    I like the idea that Darth Vader's teachings and wisdom are so powerful they can turn an otherwise fairly mundane Jedi into the Apocalypse.

    It, oddly enough, goes to show Lumiya and Flint to be failures.
     
  4. The_Four_Dot_Elipsis

    The_Four_Dot_Elipsis Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 3, 2005
    I should think, though, that someone hell-bent on destroying the Sith with an army that can expand rapidly...isn't a great thing to have lying around. Vader wants to rule the galaxy, that much is clear. I should think wiping out that resistance would be child's play for him. Well, for an ideal Vader, at least.

    Still, that is a great intro. And Wheatley drew him well.
     
  5. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    Four Dot,

    I should think, though, that someone hell-bent on destroying the Sith with an army that can expand rapidly...isn't a great thing to have lying around.

    * Hmm, how do rakghouls procreate exactly though? Yes Celeste has a number of rakhgouls, but no way off the planet nor is there any wrecked ships to repair.

    Vader wants to rule the galaxy, that much is clear. I should think wiping out that resistance would be child's play for him. Well, for an ideal Vader, at least.

    * Oh I agree he could wipe out the rakghouls, if he wanted to. In this case he didn't and, unlike his previous persona, Vader is a lot more secure in his power and abilities - he doesn't need to show off.

    Still, that is a great intro. And Wheatley drew him well.

    * Yeah, Wheatley draws a great Vader.
     
  6. The_Four_Dot_Elipsis

    The_Four_Dot_Elipsis Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 3, 2005
    Well, maybe I'm just looking at it with the benefit of...not living it. I mean, we all know that no one can ever be "stranded" on a planet, right? Everyone has to go everywhere. Especially Tatooine. ;)
     
  7. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    Heheheh, maybe it's simply that the odds are XXXX to 1 that she'll get off the planet but this time, it's that 1 in a however many chances that comes up.
     
  8. Irandrura

    Irandrura Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Feb 19, 2007
    Frankly, to me that just smacks of... well, I'll say some sort of Sith popularity contest a la Big Brother, but you know what metaphor I'm really thinking of.

    Why this idea that Vader has to be better than other characters? It's not a competition, and I would very much like to get rid of the idea that nothing elsewhere in the EU is allowed to surpass the OT in any respect. If you ask me, yes, someone like Bane or Revan could have beaten the living daylights out of Darth Vader (and Palpatine, for that matter), and I don't feel that in any way undermines Vader as a character. Vader has strengths and weaknesses. It's much more important that he be well characterised than that he be an absolute bad ass.

    So, for example, some people have suggested that Vader should be portrayed as 'A masterful tactician and strategist'. I disagree, and think that only flattens Vader as a character. Vader is not a particularly bright bulb, and his approach to strategy is brutish at best. He is, however, an ideal personal enforcer for Palpatine. I would note that the OT does support this - nowhere is Vader's supposed genius hinted at and his displayed skills at command tend towards the 'rarr! Me smash!' school of tactical thought. Even in ESB. What's his plan? Scour the entire galaxy, then the moment he finds the Rebels, immediately smash them with the largest hammer he can find. Vader is not a character with much finesse, and that's good. That's part of him. Vader is made Vader not just by his strengths, but by his flaws as well, and these need to be acknowledged.

    So put me down as in favour of a flawed but human Vader. The idea of a topic dedicated to saying 'Vader isn't mega-super-awesome enough!' is every bit as ridiculous as the one about Luke.
     
  9. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    Actually, I have no idea what you're referring to but I'll explain my feelings to you.

    Partially, because its wrong for Expys of existing characters to be better than them. It's like saying Sexton Blake is a better Detective than Sherlock Holmes or Batman is a better scientist than Doc Savage.

    Because, fundamentally, it undermines their characters. Palpatine is the Sith Antichrist. He's the ultimate embodiment in the Star Wars Universe. In storytelling terms, he's the Imbalance in the Force and the entire galaxy is so disrupted by his presence that he needs to be destroyed by someone created by the Force itself.

    He is evil incarnate.

    Darth Vader, on the other hand, is Sauron. He's the second to Palpatine's Morgoth or perhaps Saruman to Palpatine's Sauron. How bad is Palpatine? Palpatine corrupted and destroyed the Star Wars Messiah figure. In the epic of Arthur, he's Uther Pendragon. He's Samson after Delilah. He's the broken figure of Gilgamesh.

    For the Star Wars Trilogy to work, fundamentally, these must be the Two Baddest People in the History of Creation. If either one of them lives, Yoda and Obi Wan both know that it will be the end of Freedom and Justice in the Universe forever. Remember Jolee Bendu's statement about the Sith lasting a few bad centuries before going away? That's not what's going to happen with Palpatine or Vader.

    They will cover all the lands of the universe in Darkness, Mordor style....forever.

    Except, that's Vader's character. Vader is a military commander first and foremost. Even above being a lightsaber duelist and Dark Sider, he's the greatest military leader in the Empire. Why? Because he's the only guy who consistently outthinks the Rebellion. Admiral Ozzel, Admiral Piett, Grand Moff Tarkin, Admiral Motti, the Emperor, Moff Jerriodd.

    Did you notice this? Every single Imperial is 3 steps behind Vader the entire saga.

    * Vader locates the Rebel's hidden fortress by letting the Princess escape.
    * Vader locates the Rebel's hidden fortress the second time when the rest of the fleet fails.
    * Vader is the one who realizes the Shuttle is a fake.
    * Vader is the one who uses Bounty Hunters to find Princess Leia and Han Solo.
    * Vader is the one who correctly deduces the Rebellion starfighters are a threat to the Death Star.
    * Vader is the guy who comes up with the plan to use Imperial Walkers to take down the Rebellion energy shield.
    * Vader is the guy who figures out how to lure Luke Skywalker 10,000,000 Light Years to Bespin.
    * Vader is the guy who (presumably) figures out Princess Leia has the Rebel Death Star plans!

    Seriously, Vader's entire character is he's the smartest man in the Empire. That's his thing. The Empire could probably not function without him because he's the Shogun.

    Huh?

     
  10. Katana_Geldar

    Katana_Geldar Jedi Grand Master star 8

    Registered:
    Mar 3, 2003
    I'd like to know how he learnt all that those Charles, I'm not disagreeing with you but I know that Anakin wasn't the first star to come out at night. He was rather thick. Could it have been Palpatine? Dark side? 20 year experience between trilogies? Maybe, but still it makes you think. [face_thinking]

    Also, you have to remember Vader murdering people for the simple reason of having an idea before he did. Thrawn talks about that.
     
  11. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    Thrawn had a severe problem with Vader's discipline methods but I think he misjudged the Dark Lord. Vader was a cruel, ruthless, tyrannical monster whom was positively pure evil by the time of a New Hope but he was never petty. About the only time he ever lost his cool was when someone was mocking his religion to his face and even then he was more just playing with Motti than anything else (a subtle reminder that he was not one of the Emperor's lackeys, he was THE lackey)

    Remember in ANH, someone actually has the audacity to contradict him. "She'll die before she'll tell you anything."
    Vader just waves it off. Needa is about the only time that Vader ever killed someone for less than adequate reasons. I should remind people that Sun Tzu was the guy who actually first advocated Capital Punishment for people who fail to obey orders.

    I think, to a certain extent, we can blame Hayden for not really conveying it but I believe Anakin is already something of a strategic and tactical wunderkind by the time of the Clone Wars.

    We only get to see him do some small scale tactics (scouting and sapping the city to bring victory by taking its shields out from below) but he's clearly also a reasonably competent commander as well given we see him win the Air Battle of Muulinst with just Starfighters.

    If I were to make a hypothesis as to how Anakin shifted from being reckless to the calm and calculating commander, I think the loss of his physical body almost immediately caused the change. Anakin was never STUPID, he just had ample confidence his physical abilities could suceed at whatever he needed to get done.

    Once deprived of his physical overconfidence, Anakin discovered a natural talent towards strategic thinking. Basically, we would have seen a far more cunning and brilliant warrior if Anakin had ever waited 3 seconds to let his thoughts catch up to his emotions. I think Obi Wan indicated this on several occasions.

    From there, Obi Wan's lessons all started to make sense and while Palpatine certainly was an influence, I tend to think early Vader is actually a sort of evil Obi Wan Kenobi. His reliance on Bounty Hunters, Irregular Channels, and Qui Gon's "Greed is a Powerful Ally" all start to make some of Vader's favored tactics make more sense.
     
  12. Irandrura

    Irandrura Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Feb 19, 2007
    High school. Locker room. Teenage boys. Comparisons.

    You don't need to do that with Star Wars characters.

    And what, exactly, is the problem with other dark lords?

    The dark side is the imbalance in the Force. Palpatine is a Sith Lord. Perhaps a particularly successful Sith Lord, but I see no reason to make him any more than that. The movies are just one of many stories in the galaxy far, far away.

    Nonsense. I would argue that the Star Wars history is consciously cyclical. It's the monomyth. Palpatine, Vader, Luke, etc., exist as one instantiation of the grand light/dark struggle of Star Wars. There's absolutely no reason to insist that the story can't be told in other ways with other characters.

    It did happen with Palpatine and Vader. Jolee didn't say that evil shouldn't be fought. On the contrary, he argued that people should always give their all to fight and defeat evil.

    What Jolee said is that you shouldn't get uppity and say 'sure, this has happened dozens of times before, evil Sith Lords have risen, powerful Jedi have been corrupted, great heroes have saved the galaxy... but this time it's more important. This war is crucial in a way that other wars weren't'. Jolee was arguing against the very attitude you have towards the OT and Palpatine. Jolee would tell you that yes, Palpatine was evil and had to be fought, but that doesn't mean Palpatine was any different from every other Sith Lord who threatened the galaxy. To say that your foes are the greatest in the history of the galaxy is pure egotism.

    Except, you know, for all of the grand admirals.

    That's not generalship. Vader is a good hunter. He's always been good at that; witness him hunting down all the surviving Jedi. He's a bad strategist. There's a difference. He's a deadly lone agent, good in a hunter-enforcer role. He's just a lousy tactician.

    You mean in ESB? Force premonitions don't count as strategic skill; try again.

    Force premonition, not strategy.

    See: good hunter, bad general.

    ANH? That was obvious. The Imperial officer who told him that had come to the same conclusion.

    That's not a plan, that's military necessity. Orbital bombardment was useless due to the shield. Rieekan knew the Imperials would make a ground assault
     
  13. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    I'm sorry but I don't even feel like dignifying most of that with a response. You argue that hunting down the Rebellion leadership isn't good military strategy for dealing with an insurgency against an oppressive tyranny. You argue the 12 Grand Admirals are better than Vader despite the fact there's no evidence any of them are any better than Vader. You argue that Force intuition doesn't qualify as part of what makes Darth Vader a better strategist.

    It should be the most important and central conflict in the entirety of Star Wars. Given it's the source of everything and the heart of the Saga, it should recieve a setting role. I also think it's lazy and stupid to essentially make villains and say they're better than Vader or Palpatine, essentially turning it into a giant Power Rangers series.

    "Oh my goodness, this guy is even worse than Vader WHO WAS WORSE THAN FIRST SEASON'S VILLAIN!"

    Ozzel ignored their best lead, then he proceeded to reveal them to the Rebellion showing a basic lack of military intelligence. Given Darth Vader's orders were specific, Ozzel is a disobedient incompetent buffoon. Piett also proves to be a superior replacement.

    Evidence?

    He'd already annihilated the entire enemy force. Anakin's instincts were correct. Had he successfully eliminated Ventress then the galaxy would have been a far better place for it. Anakin's mistake was not jumping down after Ventress and finishing her off.
     
  14. Fettclone1

    Fettclone1 Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Aug 4, 2006
    I generally look at it as a combination of both. Vader wasn't as strong as he could have been...which is pretty frightening.

    Sorry for my ignorance but what was the "80% of the Emperor" thing about?
    If it refers to him being Palpatine's sort of 'man on the ground' then that's kinda true.
     
  15. stung4ever

    stung4ever Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Registered:
    May 17, 2002
    As I recall, Lucas said somewhere that Anakin was potentially twice as powerful as Palpatine, but his injuries left him at 40% of his potential. Which would make him 80% as powerful as the Emperor.
     
  16. Master_Keralys

    Master_Keralys VIP star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Oct 8, 2003
    You are all more than welcome to disagree - even vehemently - but play nice. No jabs at each other, no sneering at each other's arguments. Play nice. There will be consequences if you don't.
     
  17. Ulicus

    Ulicus Lapsed Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 24, 2005
    "By himself, [Vader] could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known." - Vader: The Ultimate Guide

    Palpatine is recognised by canon as the most powerful Sith Lord to ever exist. It's not a matter of opinion. The above is not identified as IU.

    Though, even without such back up, the fact that Palpatine is the only Dark Lord of the Sith to merit a Chosen One being born to combat him surely suggests he's more powerful than those who came before, no?

    Truth be told, I'm not too concerned if Vader isn't greater than the likes of Revan/Whoever... but he shouldn't be facing competition from anyone other than Luke/Leia in his own era. It is - quite frankly - an *insult* when we have the likes of Darca Nyl, who's not even Force sensitive, landing lightsaber blows on Vader.

    It's in keeping with his character... and makes sense for a man who was Supreme Commander of the Imperial Forces back when Palpatine didn't have to scrape the bottom of the barrel.

    Is Vader the very best tactician and strategist? Chaos no, but to write him as a guy who takes a large hammer to the smallest of nails is just wrong.

    Vader's flaws are acknowledged already. Over and over again. That's the problem. The balance is completely off. I don't need Vader to be written as more powerful than he's ever been (though I'd like it) I'd just like to see him written as he *used* to be.

    Back when I first delved into the EU, Vader was considered to be on *par* with Palpatine (per the Original Essential Guide to Characters) for Calrissian's sake. That was silly, certainly, but it shows you how far the man has fallen.

    Can I not even jab you with a fork? :(
     
  18. Manisphere

    Manisphere Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 25, 2007
    Trapped within his dark shell, in practical application, is he really stronger than Bane and the rest? If we indeed accept Drew Karpyshyn's Bane duology? I ask because it feels like our judgement of a Sith Lord often comes down to how many Force tricks they can perform. The fact that Vader "officially", on paper, had off the charts Force potential doesn't necessarily illustrate the extent of his power. He becomes quite pragmatic in the use of the dark side in choosing to snap a neck rather than use some arcane Sith magic.

    He is hampered down by the suit (despite upgrades) and Palpatine greatly limited Vader's Sith knowledge even from what we read in SoTE. If Palpatine was the most powerful Sith Lord ever, any attempts to outmaneuver him are useless. Vader was in more than one kind of box with Palpatine reigning.

    One of the problems with Darth Vader is that as soon as we humanize him which ROTS' ending did as did RoTJ's ending, we lose some of our fear and dread of The Sith Lord. Vader ceased to become the object of my nightmares as a child once he was humanized. And ROTS served to make him actually sympathetic. If you're watching all 6 movies from TPM on your impression of Vader in ANH and ESB will be much less terrifying. GL, dialed down the fear factor of Vader himself with the prequels.
     
  19. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    That's not accurate. After ROTJ, the Force is in balance, and yet the dark side still exists.
     
  20. Whizkid

    Whizkid Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 11, 2003

    I don't think it's fair to blame the PT & EU for humanizing/weakening Vader. Look at RotJ. Vader is revealed to be a dilapidated, sorry looking old man who was defeated by his own barely trained son. Since the reveal in ESB, it is clear that Lucas no longer viewed Vader as a pure badass.
     
  21. NelanisGhost

    NelanisGhost Jedi Youngling star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 24, 2006
    Irandrura posted:Vader is not a particularly bright bulb, and his approach to strategy is brutish at best. He is, however, an ideal personal enforcer for Palpatine.

    Huh?


    Zahnites.....

    Because Thrawn and Mara says so. Repeatedly. Notwithstanding the fact that they were both insanely jealous of Vader's position, esp miss Teen Stripper (er, private dancer) Assassin, the real Sith apprentice who, of course, was never EVER dark!!!!!! Vader never gets to say his side of it. Being DEAD.

    Mara, who always seemed to think Palpatine lied to everyone in the universe except her. Because she was sooooo special. She's gone now, but she always had the most unkind and rude things to say about him. He probably never gave the little snot any credence (really what use was she to him, a middle aged guy with his own problems?) so she resented that. It seems as though everyone was supposed to get out of Red's way, falling all over themselves to do a 15 YO's bidding. He didn't kiss her rear end the way she expected him to. Why should he? He's what made the Empire what is was, over 20+ years of service, not some freckly baby girl.
    Vader's a grouch under the best of circumstances, so I don't blame him for having zero tolerance for some punky Lindsay Lohan, OC/90210, stuck up, conceited brat. I wouldn't either.

    Shows how patient he really wais with Palps little trifles he had laying around byt he dozens..

    Thrawn hated it that he wasn't in the Empire, not really, because he was an alien.


    I don't think it's fair to blame the PT & EU for humanizing/weakening Vader. Look at RotJ. Vader is revealed to be a dilapidated, sorry looking old man who was defeated by his own barely trained son. Since the reveal in ESB, it is clear that Lucas no longer viewed Vader as a pure badass.

    It is fair, see above.

    He was sick and worried about his kid who Palps has spent the last year trying to kill "behind" Vader's back. And this was his kid, the son of Padme. He was torn. he couldn't hurt Luke. It's impossible. He loved Luke and Luke is family. Of course he looked bad, he was a BURN victim. Have you any idea what burn victims suffer through? It makes 7 YO's look like old men, constant agony ages you.
     
  22. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    She's entirely right. Vader's approach to the Rebellion is entirely straightforward and blunt. Find, kill, smash.


    Patently false. Lord Vader repeatedly attempted to undermine the Alliance through psychological warfare and shrewd political manipulation. He raised Shira Brie to destroy Luke Skywalker--not through killing him, but by making him a pariah in the eyes of his allies, a far worse fate! He created a false Ben Kenobi. He planted baits and snares. He used his own enemy's political ascendancy to his advantage.

    Lord Vader was always wheels within wheels within wheels. He had a veritable army of agents and spies so he was more informed than just about anyone save the Emperor. At times, he had more wisdom than even the Emperor--how many times was he the voice of caution and concern? He opposed the brute forced nature of the Death Star, he opposed the Emperor's obsession with instilling fear and ambition above all, and he opposed the risk of the Endor trap.

    And if that were not enough, we have unambiguous out of universe sources that state that he is a military genius. Your own personal reading of the situation is utterly immaterial. It's fanfiction. It contradicts the material and is simply untrue. When facts and a personal interpretation conflict, the facts win every time. Objectivity is superior.

    Isard, notably, failed completely. She did not understand the Rebellion nor their motivations. She expected the Empire to be welcomed back just because she unleashed a plague. She thought abandoning the galactic capital was sound sense. She was a fool.

    Thrawn, too, the so-called genius spoke badly of both Lord Vader and the Emperor on several occasions--when they were safely dead! He never dared move against them when they were alive, because he knew he was nothing to them. That's very telling.
     
  23. JaySkywalker01

    JaySkywalker01 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 25, 2005
    I also believe that Vader is superior to all previous Sith Lords before Palpatine and could have been more powerful than Palpatine, and healed his injuries, had the darkness completely taken him. The Rule of Two dictates that the Sith grow in strength and power.

    Vader is very intelligent and cunning. He learned it in the trenches through the Clone Wars in the darkest corners of the galaxy throughout the outer rim sieges. Those experiences allowed him to relate and even empathize with soldiers in the Empire, as shown with Jori Lekauf and his grandfather.

    He might have had some trouble with Bane and his orbalisk armor though.
     
  24. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    I actually think that this thread is illustrating what some of what I see the major problems with Darth Vader's recent characterization.

    You have to wonder, why would Palpatine limit Vader's knowledge? Palpatine wants Vader to overthrow him, at least in the context that Sith believe that apprentices and masters are meant to keep themselves on their toes.

    Certainly, Vader wants to learn as much Dark Side Knowledge as possible so he can figure out something to heal him. I don't see why Palpatine would not treat Vader as a genuine Dark Side apprentice.

    And in what will probably be never seen again.

    I agree with Grand Admiral Jello completely.

    I think that the movie characters get a lot of Flanderization really. Luke Skywalker is not particularly idealistic or whiny by Return of the Jedi yet people would think he just fell off the turnip truck if fans are any indication. Likewise, people try to say he was barely trained and made to be a weapon when Yoda says he is ready to be a Jedi and face the greatest Sith Lord of history.

    Darth Vader's things are he's a:

    A:] A military genius.

    B:] A master duelist.

    C:] One of the most powerful Dark Siders in the world.

    D:] Scarier than anyone else in the history of the Empire.
     
  25. DurronFan

    DurronFan Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 25, 2005
    I don't know where to rank Vader in terms of powerful Sith Lords but he is arguably the most intimidating badass SW has ever had. In the first Jedi Twilight book he is a villain feared by all...as he should be.
     
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