Lit SOD: Save Our Darth - Darth Vader

And Piett got his position based on merit? RIGHT....

Not saying he wasn't good, just kept losing the Falcon. And he was in charge of the Executor...

 

Well Piett was the guy who found Hoth.

Also, it's been stated Piett was a Mustang Officer.

That implies a certain level of competence.

He's from the Outer Rim, not inbred Coreworld Corutrash.

 

"You served too long under Lord Vader, Captain. I have no qualms about accepting a useful idea merely because it wasn't my own. My position and ego are not at stake here."

By even mentioning Vader at all, Thrawn is clearly trying to draw comparisons between the two of them. "Vader might kill people for having an idea he didn't think of, but I'd never do that. I'm not a self-conscious egomaniac, unlike some people I could name."

Then he needlessly and wastefully murdered Cris Pieterson.

 

Whilst I'm generally sympathetic to Charles' position here, this isn't really a complaint of mine. It is inconsequential whether Revan was more powerful than Vader or not, because they exist in different eras: that's why Revan works. KotOR allows us to play as the "most powerful Force user in the galaxy" without stepping on anybody's toes.

It's just as Karpyshyn wrote on his blog: "Power is relative". Is Bane stronger than Vader? Who knows?

Contrast this with The Force Unleashed, on the other hand. They're doing the exact same thing in terms of empowering the player, yet the current indication is that this will be to Vader's detriment. If the game ends with a broken Vader at Starkiller's feet, that *is* stepping on Vader's toes and the height of Stuism. SPOILER: (It's even worse that Starkiller's true power seems to stem from teachings imparted by *Kota*, rather than Vader himself)

Barring Luke and Leia (potentially), and Palpatine himself, Vader should be the most powerful being in the galaxy at that time.

Absolutely unbeatable? Not in every arena, no. But in certain arenas? Yes.

Zahn is criticised not because he writes "intelligent" and/or "powerful" villians, but because he appears (whether intentionally or not) to aggrandise them by undermining the iconic characters on which the franchise was built. The GFFA as a whole may not "belong" to Palpatine and Vader but the Classic Era most certainly does. It's one thing to introduce bad guys with power levels "OVER NINE THOUSAND!!!1" in 3951 BBY, but it's entirely another to do it in what is essentially the "Saga" timeframe.

That doesn't fly as an defence on this board, I'm afraid. For better or worse, canon is canon. Palpatine is the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy has ever known.

That doesn't mean I don't think Revan couldn't have kicked his ass at some point after turning back to the light, however....

 

I like to think that fundamentally, Grand Admiral Thrawn deeply disliked what Darth Vader represented more than anything. Grand Admiral Thrawn wanted to believe the Empire represented order just like Darth Vader. However, Darth Vader was a man who did not particularly hide the corrupt and evil core of the Darkness.

He didn't want to acknowledge they were the same.

But yes, there's a number of ways to view Darth Vader. I view Vader as a cold and machine-like creature rather than a very emotional one. Vader rarely shows emotion. The destruction of his body on Mustafar transformed into a Jedi-like figure of stoicism and cold implacable logic. His fury is muted and hatred that's blunted by his endless pain.

 

Irandura, are we seriously suggesting that dear old Mitty was less of a massive egotist than Lord Vader?

Seriously???

Because, lol.

 

As for Mara Jade, I have heard accusations that she's a Mary Sue before, but I don't really see it. Yes, she is a highly capable and intelligent character. That's the idea. Yet she is by no means unflawed or perfect. Nor do I think she really upstages Vader. Sure, maybe if you squint a bit in Allegiance, but Allegiance is a novel about Mara, not Vader. Zahn would be a bad writer if Vader came in and upstaged all his original characters.

Uh huh....

But of course, ZAHN's character all get to do that to everyone else.

But many examples:

Karrde, smarter and better than Han. Karrde can do a million times more stuff better than Han. According to Zahn because you never hear about him any other times.

Garm Bel Iblis, so much better than Mon Mothma, Padme and Bail Organa put together but he sure didn't go into Palps office and look him in the eye, did he? Nope, He ran away. But Zahn wrote Mon Mothma, one of the true heroes of the saga, as a loser and a tyrant and no better than HIS glorious FEY'LYA!

Winter is alway thought of as the real Leia when they were kids because she's sio much better looking crawling out of a pile of garbage than Leia looks after three hours with a make up artist and dripping in finery. And of course she remembers everything anyone's ever said. i guess in this area she is better than Leia, 3PO and R2 put together and is still just a nanny.

Ghent, ugly weird nerd. Of course he's such a genius he can make McGuyver look like a preschool girl.

Mara, of course, is the genuis of the entire universe, as Luke is always made to look like a snot nosed stupid dork with the IQ of a stump, with Mara dancing rings around him in the force in dueling, in thinking, dressing up, hair styling, and probably ironing, if she ever did a stitch of housework, that is....

I liked Mara after she started acting normal and wasn't all upset that the galaxy was freed and she lost her little non official job in trade. I know she thought that she's more important than 890 bazillion oppressed people, but c'mon, let's get over ourselves. She's lucky Palps died, because Vader would have killed her in the very near future had he lived, just like he killed all those other Hands. She did mellow into a character I liked and I was sad to see her die, and thought it was dumb. It destroyed Luke's heart and that's not good.


Thrawn: He was always three steps ahead of Palpatine. Yeah, sure he was...



Then why didn't he learn that little Vader lesson of treating slaves like dirt and gloating about your imagined superiority in their presence, when the said slave is there with weapons, and super angry. Whoops.

(Oh and the Chimaera was a better ship than the Executor. We didn't hear this but the Chimaera definitely thought it. Too bad Artoo wasn't around to "tell" us that. )

 

Let's not go Zahn bashing, shall we?

The fact is that Zahn does write wonderful characters that stand up well alongside the main characters because they're meant to be peers. Oddly enough, they do pretty well as peers and Mara Jade became extremely popular for a number of reasons (not the least being she has Leia's personality after they shoved Leia into the role of being the nice and sweet diplomat).

To stick the topic with Darth Vader, it's that I don't think Zahn GETS Darth Vader. He attempts to write Vader as this extremely hot and emotional character when it's the exact opposite. Before we saw the Prequels, one of the obvious qualities of a Jedi Knight was that all three of them that we saw are intensely good at controlling their emotions.

These three Jedi being, of course, Obi Wan, Yoda, and Vader.

 

Count me in as someone who did not like Vader's portrayal in Allegiance. His confrontation with Mara was poorly thought out, making him appear manipulated by the Emperors Hand. He should have been shown as being able to squish her like a bug, but choosing not to because of her affiliation to his Master.

Darth Vader has certainly been portrayed enjoyably in several novels/series though. I enjoyed him in Dark Lord, also Last of the Jedi gives a decent portrayal outside of his desire to erase his memory.

Jedi Twilight may be setting the stage for something greater, but his inclusion in the series is a little weak at this point for me.

On Admiral Piett, I'm still trying to figure out when he failed Vader outright. Yes, his men screwed up the deactivation of the Falcon's hyperdrive, but really the failure on Bespin was Vader's, not Piett's.

Also no one has killed more Old Republic Jedi than Vader has. From novels to comics he's been portrayed as quite powerful, I think more powerful than he was as Anakin Skywalker. He was a tragic villian of sorts even dating back to the Original Trilogy, he must have been conflicted at times. Painting him as being presented innacuatly because he's a not a emotionless brute is something I disagree with when keeping Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi in mind, then the Prequel trilogy which followed them. He was always complex, always troubled. He couldn't bring himself to kill Luke in Empire and had come full circle by Jedi.

While I don't believe Vader was a military strategist on the level of Thrawn, I certainly don't think he was a slouch either. He may have demanded as much loyalty and respect as Thrawn did. Vader lead a great deal of succesful missions during the Clone Wars, where he often occupied a command position. Vader was actually the type of leader Thrawn would have respected if he didn't kill his officers every so often. Vader always lead from the front, be it in the assualt on the Jedi Temple or the assualt on Hoth's Echo Base or the Battle of Muunilist.

Thrawn and Vader were very different leaders, each with a variety of individual strengths. I'd hesitate to say one was greater than the other. They were simply very different. Thrawn not appreciating Vader's command style does come across a bit hypocritical when he exucutes one of his bridge officers in Heir.

 

I put the Allegiance scene down to Vader screwing with Mara-- probably as much to amuse himself as to freak her out. Vader gets his kicks out of mucking with people's heads.

 

According to Wookieepedia, this is how many Jedi that Vader has killed.

Koffi Arana
Sors Bandeam
Bene
Aidan Bok
Bol Chatak
Olana Chion
Cin Drallig
Siadem Forte
Jurokk
Serra Keto
Iwo Kulka
Ma'kis'shaalas
Whie Malreaux
Dama Montalvo
Jocasta Nu
Shadday Potkin
Ranik Solusar
Morvet Storm
Bultar Swan (killed by Koffi Arana but I'll give it to Vader because he proved him)
Axton Tredway
Zonder
Obi Wan Kenobi
Echuu Shen-Jon
An'ya Kuro

Total Jedi Kills: 24

I confess, while I never assumed Vader killed the entirety of the Jedi Order by himself, I always would have thought his kills were in the low hundreds.

 

While I don't believe Vader was a military strategist on the level of Thrawn, I certainly don't think he was a slouch either. He may have demanded as much loyalty and respect as Thrawn did. Vader lead a great deal of succesful missions during the Clone Wars, where he often occupied a command position. Vader was actually the type of leader Thrawn would have respected if he didn't kill his officers every so often. Vader always lead from the front, be it in the assualt on the Jedi Temple or the assualt on Hoth's Echo Base or the Battle of Muunilist.

I don't think Thrawn lead 250,000 ground troops the way that Anakin did in JT. At 21. He was a hands on officer. His troops liked him and were very loyal. He was loyal. Even as Vader. Vader WAS A WARRIOR. Thrawn is a politician.

Thrawn is the quintessential snob. He was the type Vader hated. Titled, and entitled. Born into everything and priveleged and earned nothing. He was like a Bail Organa. Minus the kindness. He's an extreme elitist, and Vader is very street, though he can be elegant and well mannered, it's a learned behavior, not a bred one. Thrawn would never get his snow white suit dirty. He gets others to do his dirty work.

Besides, it's easy to inform people of how superior you were to others, when those others are dead and your enemy is the one who defeated them. Thrawn was more talk than walk, he lost in very short order and was a bully willing tohand over babies to a madman. For his benefit. So this retcon of "trying to prepare the galaxy for the Vong" is nonsense. Nothing could prepare them for the Vong, and no one could have stopped them.

Thrawn and Vader were very different leaders, each with a variety of individual strengths. I'd hesitate to say one was greater than the other. They were simply very different. Thrawn not appreciating Vader's command style does come across a bit hypocritical when he exucutes one of his bridge officers in Heir.



Thrawn doesn't have any competition, so IMO his so called victories are hollow. And he didn't have a large victory, so how is he better than Vader and Palpatine, who literally overthrew the entire galaxy? For 20+ years?

 

Hundreds? Wow, I think his totals are quite impressive. Look at how much trouble Maul had killing two Jedi. I also assume Vader's total is largely based on head to head confrontations where he was outnumbered.

 

I tend to think Vader's level of military strategy bears further examination. I tend to think that he's on the level of a Grand Admiral. I don't think he's as good as Grand Admiral Thrawn because Thrawn's super power is he's a ridiculously competent tactician to the point that he's able to make elaborate and ridiculous leaps of logic that somehow turn out to be right. It's like suggesting Obi Wan Kenobi might be a better Detective than Sherlock Holmes.

No, because being a Detective is Sherlock Holmes' thing.

I do think that Vader is a military genius though, mostly because he has what seperates him from merely competent soldiers. The standard definition of a military genius is not a guy who can lead well, it's a guy who can lead well and achieve things normal people can't by going around standard doctrine.

The whole thing with Thrawn and Darth Vader is that both of them are extremely unorthodox. Darth Vader's strategy with the probe droids is GENIUS because it works. He takes a tool for scouting, manufactures a million of them, and then has them scan all the planets in the galaxy. It's a drop in the bucket of the Empire's resources and he makes these kinds of decisions regularly.

Darth Vader is also a military progressive. While Tarkin was fostering the idea they should use ever increasing amounts of super weapons and bigger hammers, Vader favored creating surgical weaponry and amping up the abilities of the common soldier.

Vader fostered the Phantom TIE project that was actually quite brilliant and also the Dark Forces project that also seemed to work quite well. Morever, he was the guy who green lit the Tie Advanced and TIE defender projects that really ate into the Rebellion's forces for awhile.

Vader was a technophile, I don't think anyone can argue with that and that was a quality the Galactic Empire needed. He was the guy who was always cracking the whip on the Empire's scientists and seeking ever more interesting ways to build a better mousetrap for the Rebellion. It's tactics when you win a battle, its strategy when you argue TIE fighters need shields.

Vader also had an eye for talent. Admiral Piett, Lumiya, Secret Apprentice, and so on all seemed to be very good at their jobs. If Star Wars Tales is canon about the Dark Eight, Vader had an extremely weird obsession with surrounding himself with his own hand chosen men. It was if he never trusted anyone to do their jobs that he wasn't personally comfortable with. In the treacherous Empire, who can blame him.

Vader did have some serious flaws in the fact that he didn't want people to love being in the Empire. He wanted their respect and fear rather than their patriotism. Vader personally hated the Emperor and it's arguable he didn't much care for the Empire as it presently stood. That only fostered treason underneath Darth Vader and certainly in the ranks of his captains. He seemed to vent his fury on men who he considered to be toadies and the children of rich families fast tracked over those who'd started with nothing (Vader himself).

Likewise, Vader was not afraid to spend the amount of troops necessary to get a job done. A certain callousness is actually not a bad thing in a military commander to be perfectly brutal about it. Many wars have been won by willingness for commanders to spend lives. Princess Leia's capture would destroy the Rebellion and the destruction of a few Star Destroyers is an honestly small price to pay.

Oddly, I think Vader was genuinely popular with the Common Fighting Man and Stormtroopers. While there's some indications he was feared, there's also indications that he was something of an Imperial totem and symbol of victory. Hethrir and Ambassador Furghan both used Darth Vader's lineage as a popular rallying point for the Empire. Likewise, Vader's troopers seemed to acknowledge he was talented. As much as General Veers was a high ranking officer, he also seemed to likewise respect Vader and hated Sedriss for his inferiority to him.

 

Palpatine overthrew the galaxy, Vader helped but was not that central to the plan. Thrawn doubled the size of the Empire. That said I don't compare Thrawn's genius to Palpatine's, any more than I link Vader's accomplishments to Palaptine.

 

Yes, Vader never quite had the same kind of life and death situation/control as Thrawn did. Either Anakin was given a short leash by the Jedi Council with someone (usually Obi Wan Kenobi always looking over his shoulder) or Vader was running an anti-insurgency campaign.

Vader had a reputation as a huge conqueror but mostly, he had the Big Stick behind him.

The only real indication on how Darth Vader would be without the Empire behind him is Return of the Jedi: Infinities which, to be fair, has Darth Vader successfully conquer the galaxy while on the side of the Rebellion.

 

Olana Chion, IIRC, is more ambiguous; I think the Databank says she died in the attack on the temple, but she could just as easily have been (and it's probably most likely that she was) killed by the clones as by Vader.

That said, I haven't read the Last of the Jedi series, but doesn't it end with Vader blowing up an asteroid that a couple of Jedi were hiding on? I'd include them on his kill list if Wookieepedia's description of what happened is accurate.

Then you can also consider all the non-Jedi Force-sensitives he's killed. Dooku, a clone of Dooku, four of Dooku's dark acolytes, Darth Maul, Del Korot, two Emperor's Hands, a clone of himself, however many Dark Jedi stormtroopers were in that one Traviss story, and, of course, the Emperor himself. Thazzalot!

 

Thrawn is the quintessential snob. He was the type Vader hated. Titled, and entitled. Born into everything and priveleged and earned nothing. He was like a Bail Organa. Minus the kindness. He's an extreme elitist, and Vader is very street, though he can be elegant and well mannered, it's a learned behavior, not a bred one. Thrawn would never get his snow white suit dirty. He gets others to do his dirty work.

I admit I simply do not see how you've come to this conclusion. He was born into nothing and earned his spot in the Empire. An elitist? shame_on_you , I disagree, being in power does not make you that. He left behind his entire life to go and serve the Empire because he felt it was right. The couple examples I stated above show that Thrawn is willing to get his uniform dirty.

I thought Thrawn was born into the House of Mithrawnudo or whatever it is, one the Chiss ruling families. He left because he wanted to use the Empire's resources to build his own little Empire, all the while insisting that he was doing it for philanthropic purposes. He wasn't really loyal to the Empire, he wanted to rule the Empire.

But this isn't a Thrawn thread. I used the example to show how the EU has gone out of it's way to portray Vader badly, and as a weakling, yet no one ever got the upper hand with him, either. He was fully aware of who was spying on him and what was going on. He wasn't a blind fool.

I think Palpatine did indeed care for him, in the twisted way he could, but also feared him. He didn't trust Vader and Vader didn't trust him, but that is the way of the Sith, and if Vader weren't worthy of the Sith title, he wouldn't have had it as long as he did. Vader is a contradiction, one that violent, lustful, out of control, and also has a conscience. That makes him conflicted. He can't control his passions, and at the same time, he has learned much of control that he didn't as a spoiled Jedi Knight, who was very indulged. Palps knew he was immature and gave him room because of his potential to be angry and focused, and also because he believed in him. "Vader will become greater than both of us". Vader channeled his force propelled feelings much more effectively than he did as a boy. With Padme gone and his uncertainty gone, he became deadly, with Palps encouraging him to fulfill his power "at his own peril, if need be". Palps knew Vader was still strong enough to kill him. That's why the psychological controls, drugs and throwing idiots like Xizor, Ferus, and many Hands in his way, to distract him a bit, so Palps could distance himself from him, when he inevitably started to turn against him.

Palps made a huge mistake thinking that he would ever come before family to Vader. I think of Vader's ancestors, as clansman. Shmi instilled something in him greater than just simple loyalty. It's like a mantra almost. Family before all. Even if it meant destroying 20+ years of scheming and shenanigans.

 

Because George Lucas said so.

Equating the dark side with the imbalance in the Force falls apart after ROTJ.

I don't know, he looked human enough to me.

 

This is really the Thrawn thread, isn't it?

I subscribe to the sentiments as displayed by Uli.
Yet, I think that the first and foremost person to blame for changing Original Vader is GL, with the prequels.

 

It'll pass.

Yeah, I'll straight up say that I found Anakin Skywalker to be a disappointment. Of course, so did Anakin himself... which is why we have Darth Vader in the first place.

Still, I don't think Anakin's character should negatively impact on the man he became. I think Jedimarine is right. Lord Vader (post Mustafar) is much more than "Evil!Anakin" - primarily because his newfound limitations meant he couldn't be Anakin anymore. As Charles pointed out, Anakin always had his natural talent to fall back on to get him out of a scrape- the "Force as Anakin knew it" (per Dark Lord) - yet this was to his deteriment. For all his talk of becoming "the most powerful Jedi ever", Anakin Skywalker was the consummate coaster and a massive underachiever.

Darth Vader is neither.

 

I actually like the idea that Darth Vader is evil Obi Wan for the most part. He's calm, reserved, and is the "Diplomat" except his Diplomacy is Fear and Greed. I always liked that Darth Vader does whatever is necessary to get an alliance and then causally ignores it because he's well....Vader.

Anakin doesn't have a formal military education but he has three and a half-years of the school of war by the time he becomes Darth Vader. By the time of A New Hope, Vader has 23 years of War education. Anakin loses his identity as Anakin so he has to create a new identity whole cloth. He basically reinvents himself like Batman does. He creates a personality and appearance far removed from Anakin to maintain his sanity.

He then loses himself in this role.

Darth Vader is a mixture of Obi Wan, Mace Windu, and the Emperor with just a few traces of Anakin.

 

I agree with Charles - or rather, I'd like to agree.
But there's a few things.

Where did his sarcasm come from?
His wit?
His way with words?
...His loss of Canadian accent?
And why does he have this momentary lapse of Vaderhood in the middle of Allegiance, and nowhere else?

It seems like there is a gap in the Vadervelopment, and I always assumed that the prequels were meant to fill that void. Perhaps we need midquels?