ST Solo’s 58% RT & 5.6 Metascore an indicator of just untrustworthy the TLJ scores there were?

There’s value in penning articles, essays, and talking about all of the concerns and issues of course. Absolutely.

I’m saying that dropping 1 out of 10 reviews on sites because of those concerns may end up helping those very same alt right and MRA dudes in the long run because if a change was made at the top with writers/directors I’m not convinced it would move things more in the direction of better representation. I think if a change is made the priorities would be to combat the SJW narrative slightly overall while also playing up more fan service.

 

Good news, everyone! Solo has improved its score at 60% audience approval rating, beating The Phantom Menace, Attack of the Clones and The Last Jedi's audience score. If this keeps up, it might even beat Revenge of the Sith's 65% Audience Score.

 

If not for the loads of politically motivated 0/10 it got, it would have been well over 85% audience score.

On this site Solo is at over 90% approval rating. All youtube comments I see are overwhelmingly positive as well.

Just to show how hard is to overcome organized RT score bashing.

 

Don’t 0/10 votes not count? Same for 1/2/10?

 

Does it really matter if it's not at 85%? Revenge of the Sith is one of my favorite Star Wars movie and yet it's at 65% approval rating on RT.

My point is that the approval rating is going up for Solo in spite of alt-right trolling agenda. Maybe slow, but there it is.

 

No, they don't. 0/10 and 10/10 are useless votes in this case. There is a reason Olympic average exists.

For me, as long as I enjoyed, I don't care about the rating, but you are right, the approval is going up. But the damage of a single 0/10 vote takes a dozen 8/10s to recover.

 

The backlash against The Last Jedi and Kathleen Kennedy is very real and alive. Maybe now they''ll wake up when they realize this is effecting their pocket books. Hopefully the first thing is firing Kathleen Kennedy the utter poison of Star Wars.

 

0/10 is not added in RT Audience rating system. And from what I've heard, neither is 1/10 or 10/10. Only 1.5/10-9.5/10 are allowed as a safeguard against any trolling on RT. That's why RT stated they detected no foul play in TLJ because the more extreme ratings are automatically excluded.

 

So these people would just give it 1.5/10 and 9.5/10. The issue is on the very basic concept of a score that does not demand that the reviewer has actually watched the movie and cannot prevent someone from making several accounts or to coordinate a group attack on a movie.

 

@Ricardo Funes If you really want to know what was happening behind the scenes of RT, here's this article:

 

An interesting figure is that Solo only has 24,857 user reviews after 5 days. That's a number that you would think could really be influenced by bots and groups with agendas massively. Yet its audience score is better than TLJ. Heaps better.

Is there not an argument that maybe it actually suggests the much-maligned RT might actually be correct? It could even be the tip of the iceberg cause for a new SW movie having only 24,857people feeling compelled to leave a review on it seems very, very small.

 

Funny that you mention that, because the RT audience score for ROTS is about the one that is most likely "wrong".

Just look at the number of voters. There is absolutely no way 33 million people voted on that movie, or are even registered in that site.

Same weird glitch happened to Rocky. Compare it to Rocky II, III and IV. You’ll notice there is something off about that Rocky (first) score with 33M voters, and a similar rating in the 60% range. There is no way the first Rocky would have the lowest score in the group.

 

IMO, The Last Jedi is a much better movie than Solo, in every aspect. Solo getting 58% in RT is a clear indicator to avoid that site from now on. Imdb is the one for me.

 

No it is not. At least for me.

 

I think when the politically motivated first started review bombing TLJ it in some ways gave additional confidence to anyone who was super angry about Luke’s handling or Rey’s lineage handling to say, “Regardless of these review bombers motivations... they’re right. The critics do have this wrong because TLJ is hurtful to fans and I’m also now leaving a low review alongside them to send a message to Lucasfilm! This is a movement and I don’t care what other reasons these other people have for review bombing. If we collectively send a message then that works for me.”

As Solo seems to rally here a little bit (up to 60%), following the news of the slumping box office numbers, I get the sense more that the hardcore fandom is coming more to the aid and in defence as though to say, “No. This is closer to what we actually like. This dig into the legends ideas more. The critics and politically motivated actually have this wrong this time. There isn’t that much of the so called “SJW” messaging in this anyway. Do NOT see this situation as the same as TLJ because you’re sending mixed messages! Take it from me. I did not like TLJ and I like this more. Go see it!” And these folks are probably now leaving more positive reviews in the hopes of combatting any narrative along those lines.

It’s fascinating to watch in a way. It shows the impact that the most motivated and active online users within hardcore fandoms can have on these self-selecting systems. Anger enough of them and they can strike back alongside the politically motivated and form a very strong coalition that can really sink the perception of a work. Make them feel more appreciated with more fan service and wish fulfillment and entertainment that feels made more with them in mind and they will come to fight off the politically motivated with that same fan passion.

Reminds me of the DC fandom who can frequently rally against the general audience and get the RT audience scores of much of the Snyder content up above 60%.

 

Why didn't these same campaigns hit films like the Black Panther, or Infinity War, or WW? I'd imagine the people who hated the last jedi due to certain political agendas, racial anxieties,etc. would absolutely detest WW or BP.

I'm reeeeaaaally getting tired of this stuff on youtube. Did you know there's a new theory floating around that lord and miller were fired because L3 was supposed to be a spoof on KK? So many of these youtubers are revealing themselves to be ultra petty and immature. I can probably think of just a few youtubers who focus on the actual film when talking about what they hated. The min I start hearing people lob these schoolyard insults at KK or RJ, i'm like "sigh.....grow up.". I mean the movie came out in dec. Why are these folks still feeling so personal towards these LFL people? All they have to do is speak with their wallets when the next one comes out. I hated the last jedi more than any film in recent memory. My current attitude towards it is "well...yeah....so that happened". What else am I supposed to do? Hit up twitter and fire bomb RJ as much as I can? I have better things to do. I'm sick of hearing complaints about "fake socially conscious" people. Its become a full time job for some of these grown adults.

 

@Ender_and_Bean Why dwell on it? There have literally been pages and pages where people refuse to believe the score and even without any brigading, it's still likely to be unreliable as it only captures people who bother to leave an opinion. So why does it even matter what it is?

Just follow how the movies perform from this point and gauge your opinions from that. One thing that I think is quite clear however is that whatever the RT user score is it's not used by people before they go and see a movie and it's a US-centric service that has no international impact.

Nothing changes however if you choose to believe the score or not.

 

I think the Solo score is just about right. It's a fairly bland paint-by-numbers movie that people may enjoy but I think will easily forget about. The Last Jedi isn't a movie that people will forget in a hurry (though I really wish I could...ugh) and for all the talk about rigging scores, RT have said this hasn't been the case. The scores are genuine. While I'm sure a few trolls have slipped through the cracks, there's no way RT wouldn't be closely scrutinising such high profile movies to ensure as much accuracy as possible as their reputation is on the line as much as anything.

 

I think there are different levels of racial hate out there online and that the most extreme did try to lower Black Panther where they could. Black Panther’s metascore is down to 6.7 despite rave reviews and higher reviews than that on IMDB. On RT the 79% there is still way below the 97% mark from critics or the above 90% RT audience scores that Guarfians of the Galaxy and Infinity War received.

More than that though, I imagine that beyond the fringe and most hateful racists and more into the larger in numbers grumbling dog whistle racists who don’t think they’re racist I suspect they showed Black Panther as much attention as they have Tyler Perry’s vast film career. Which is to say they didn’t see it and didn’t bother to leave a review at all. POC reportedly came out in record numbers for Black Panther in theatres. Had the same amount of people who saw TLJ combined with that new demographic of film goers it might have challenged TFA at the box office. It didn’t, indicating that the white film goer did not see it in the same numbers they did Star Wars alongside the record POC filmgoers. In short, I think a lot of racists probably mind less a new film that they perceive is more for black audiences and features mostly black actors and actresses in it. In its own weird way they would perceive something like that as segregation.

But “take” (in their minds) something that those same people grew up with and slowly make it seem more and more liberal (in their minds) starting first with more diverse casts but really reaching the nadir for them once women are shown being above men, correcting them and their “toxic masculinity” in the hopes of turning them into a word that starts with “C” and ends rhymes with “buck,” and appears anti-capitalist (Canto night), pro-vegan/animal rights and suddenly a lot more of the moderate conservatives have a problem. There’s a trickle down effect from the fringe to the more moderate conservatives over times and it takes time for the fringe’s ideas to resonate with the less extreme. But countless right wing talking heads, journalists and zines all focused in on this and a quick google of “the Last Jedi social justice” and/or “The Last Jedi SJW” and/or “The Last Jedi liberal agenda” and/or “The Last Jedi Alex jones” and you’ll see just how much hate was out there and seen my millions on the Right.

My working theory at the moment is that Solo is better isolating the sample that hated TLJ but enjoyed Solo (something we have seen all over this site) and that it’s sizable group that if TLJ had not angered would have had better scores too. However, I think by pulling that group out it also shows the amount of RT user hate that is likely driven more by troll culture and conservatives who feel like they’ve lost Star Wars to a liberal agenda and are lashing out. This is supported by the two respective IMDB scores of both films and the wildly different RT audience scores that are still well below both but also wildly diffent from each other.

I think that without the political hate TLJ might have been as much as 12% points higher on RT. Still low. Still below popcorn but better than it is and closer to the mean seen elsewhere. And without the political hate carry over for Solo I think Solo would be above the critics score of 70% for the audience. The hardcore fans seem to really enjoy it.

 

Or...and this may be a crazy thought...TLJ simply has an incredibly weak script that contains a nonsensical plot, is bloated, has characters acting stupidly for the sake of manufactured tension and utterly destroys one of the most beloved heroes in the history of cinema. For all the talk about racism and agendas and all that, Occam's Razor must surely apply and the simplest explanation for low scores for TLJ and Solo is that audiences didn't think the movies were all that great.

Does anybody seriously think that The Phantom Menace's score is what it is because of some conspiracy? No. People accept it because the movie has problems, some of which are too much for a lot of people to look past. I happen to like TPM but I'm not blind to its problems. I think what's happening with TLJ in particular is a refusal to acknowledge that the film has some pretty major issues and so people are desperately searching for any reason they can to explain a low score that doesn't include the possibility that a lot of people simply don't think it's a very good Star Wars movie.

 

None of this refutes anything that I said or the sheer amount of “SJW” comments found all over RT. TPM is lower than TLJ on IMDB with over half a million (600,000) people factored in. It had worse reviews and a lower IMDB rating with more people factored in because people have issues with the story. TLJ & Solo are being hit on RT because people have issues with the story and because of political opposition and a more organized and unified Right who more regularly review bombs things they see as a threat to their idealogy.

Within hours of the “Lando is pansexual” headlines the RT want to see score dropped 40% with comments like this:

WAS ANYTHING LIKE THAT OBSERVED WITHIN TPM OR AOTC?

No? That’s what I thought. This is new to Star Wars and noticeable all over online and its logical because if there are enough people around to vote in Trump to office, and Conservative PMs in the UK and Australia now and then... there sure as heck is enough people in key Star Wars markets that could be triggered and angered by political messaging that they do not want to see in Star Wars.

 

In addition to agreeing with this point, I'd like to encourage everyone to stop 'straw manning' those that they disagree with. Rather than just go snipe the weakest arguments we can find, we should be engaging the stronger ones. Its called 'steel manning' and the great debaters throughout history tend to utilize it - if you can make your opponent's argument better than them, and still dismantle it, you win. If, instead, you just dismantle the argument made by your opponent's drunk friend, you won't get much more than a 'like' or two on an internet forum.

TPM and AOTC were 19/16 years ago, respectively. Those people writing those reviews that you find so objectionable (and voting in ways you seem to not like, even though there were Republicans and Conservatives being elected in those days, too), by and large, were around to see the prequel trilogy in theaters. Perhaps the problem is not the reviewers, but what is being reviewed.

And those were two movies that literally about corporate tycoons building private armies and fighting against a peaceful democracy. Somehow, they still didn't piss off right-wing people enough to get much criticism on that front.

 

Agreed on that. It definitely didn't seem to anger as many of them as it does now. The Right has changed from that period of time. Someone like Rush Limbaugh was the anomaly. Now, he's considered modest and sites like Breitbart, and people like Alex Jones are leading that ideology with millions of followers and views. There's been more written on identity politics since the early 00s, too. Right wing analysts, commentators and essayists dug into identity politics heavily during at time period where Right Wing politicians were losing elections -- most notably the Obama rise -- and their strategists were struggling to determine how these center left coalitions were uniting and defeating them at the polls. So, a lot of the representation criticism/and so called SJW propaganda criticism within TLJ touches on a variety of topics on the Right that have really moved from fringe analysis to the dominant talking points on that side of the political spectrum. The Men's Rights activists are also a growing movement that wasn't anywhere near as organized or as focused on countering perceived slights as they are now.

This guy, for example, has 2.1 million subscribers on Youtube . For reference, the best The Clone Wars ratings of all time were around 4 million. A site like Breitbart has over 45 million unique viewers MONTHLY! Many of these big Right Wing sites criticized The Last Jedi for SJW complaints. You'd be hard pressed to find anything close to this kind of political commentary around TPM or AOTC at the same time on the Right.



We saw NFL ratings plummet over political divides to such an extent that the NFL just banned kneeling for the next year! What makes us think Star Wars wouldn't be impacted significantly by political divide in these highly divisive times?

 

I really think you're missing the point I was making. It was not 'see, the Right used to be okay with political messages and now they're a bunch of <insert whichever disparaging term you like here>.' It was 'At least the prequels didn't insult the opposite side when making their political message.' In fact, the only time I remember anyone commenting on the real world political message in the prequels was many of us on the Right lambasting Lucas for the 'if you're not with me' line from Vader, which was the closest the films came to being blunt and insulting in their political commentary. There's also the fact that in 1999-2005, there was not really nearly as much of an internet media presence as there is now.

If I were to venture a guess on why this is an issue in general now (at least insofar as American politics are concerned), its not because 'the right has moved' but because both sides have moved, and they've both moved pretty far apart from each other. Now, as someone on the Right, I will agree wholeheartedly that my side of the spectrum has gone in a different direction in the past decade or so (honestly, whatever you think about Trump, he's firm evidence of a political shift on the Right). But I think that some on the Left don't want to admit that they're moving, at the same time, especially on social issues. So, when they present a political message for 2018, it would not resonate with people across the political spectrum, from 2008. And, given that the Right is, by definition, conservative, thats going to aggravate us even more, so we're going to push back even harder, particularly when we don't like the tone. And tone is, for better or worse, one of the biggest factors in how we (all of us) react to something. Its why I think you didn't see much of a Right-wing rejection of Wonder Woman or Black Panther.

Ultimately, we're going through a cultural and political re-alignment and re-orientation, and its hard to say how its all going to shake out. But, as things grow more atomized and uncertain, there is every social pressure to fight harder for our respective positions.

And all of this is just one facet to the general reception to Disney-LFL's version of Star Wars. But I'd like to end with this question: Even if all the alt-right were motivated purely by their politics to hate The Last Jedi, does that really invalidate their dislike of it? If they voted it down on Rotten Tomatoes because they hate that the fleet was led by Holdo instead of Ackbar, is that less valid than voting it down because they don't like the hints of romance between Rey and Kylo? If there's enough people that hold a certain view, a polling site reflecting that is just doing what it is built to do. Even if you don't like why they don't like it.