PT Some Keys to the Prequels

This is why I always liked Luke as a character. He's not doing anything for power or any such personal gain, but to simple do whats right. For me Luke is what a jedi truly should be IMO. Luke's journey is so compelling because he is truly human and makes mistakes that we all could make ourselves. I totally sympathized with Luke wanting to go save his friends because that's any of us would for our friends. As you said above, it's about Luke realizing that no matter what if he strikes Vader down it would gain him nothing but anger. Just wanted to put my thoughts in, as I doubt my post will noticed as to be honest I don't usually post on the more philosophical discussions.

 

Oh I quite like that. It seems to sum up the difference between Anakin and Luke and the Jedi quite succinctly. Jedi training really is all about trying to breed people who can make the right decision under extreme pressure, not create powerful beings who intimidate enemies into submission.
Chancellor Yoda I do agree that Luke is a more relatable presence and ultimately a good guy, but Idk, I'm still unconvinced that he is a "true" Jedi, because of his limited training and his emotional outbursts in ESB. Also from the EU it seems that the New Order is sort of "watered down" and less strict, and I don't know if that's a change for the better (for me anyway). But as mentioned, he did seem to grow up a lot in ROTJ, maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised.

 

At this point he had been waiting to kill the Jedi for decades. I'm sure the 3 years he waited during the war were of little consequence to him, and were possibly the time he enjoyed the most.

 

IF their job is to PROTECT the Republic, then that would include fighting enemies that is attacking it.
So if they refuse to fight, they are standing idly by.
NOT fightning would not have helped in any way and would in all lileyhood make things even worse.
You still assmue that some "magic" alternative existed for the Jedi. That he dthye just done "this" then everything would work out and all would be well. I don't think it was that easy.
Palpatine had backed them and the senate intoa corner, they had a choice between bad and worse, they choose bad. Given what they knew, I don't blame them for choosing the bad.
I will blame them for being far too trusting witht the clones, not asking enough questions or making plans for other eventualities.

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He most certainly could, the senate had given up most it's power, he had the clone army that he could order to do what ever he told them too.
All he need was an excuse. In RotS he told Anakin about himself, so that the Jedi would act against him and that would give him reason to have them all killed. Had the Jedi refused to follow the order given by the senate and refused to fight, they would be traitors and Palpatine would have all the justification he needs.

Bye for now.
The Guarding Dark

 

Fair enough. I agree with you on the EU, though I wasn't really counting that on my assessment of Luke. I think what meant by Luke being a true jedi was more of what Luke was trying to do to become a jedi.

 

A sacrifice that needed to be made.

YODA: "A Jedi uses the Force, for knowledge and defense. Never for attack."

By not fighting, Palpatine will not win. Their alternatives to fighting was to find other ways to fight the war, without being soldiers in it.

Palpatine doesn't have all the power. In AOTC, he only had so much power. But not enough to justify Order 66 and definitely not enough to turn the Republic into the Empire. Palpatine needed the Jedi and the war to become Emperor. The Senate would not grant him the powers to justify executing the Jedi. Arresting, maybe. But not killing them. He doesn't have that power until the end of the war. That's why he doesn't issue Order 66 after Pong Krell turned and after Barris Offee's treachery.

 

YODA: "Destroy the Sith, we must."

Let Obi-Wan die...okay that's certainly a creative approach.

Fighting a war by definition makes you a soldier.

Order 66 was imbedded in the minds of the clones, it could have been enacted at any time, perhaps it would have needed Senate approval before Palpatine had Supreme Commander designation. Either way Palpatine could have enacted Order 66 at any time, but in order to maintain power he needed to do so while also painting them as villains. Them not fighting in the war would have allowed him to do so much earlier.

 

Yeah, how'd that work out for them.

It's not about creativity, but practical to avoid starting a war and making everything go to hell.

There's a difference. The Jedi shouldn't be soldiers. They shouldn't have military rankings and use military strategies. They're peacekeepers and negotiators, not generals and warmongers.

Not really. The Senate wouldn't vote to eliminate them and would turn on him if he did try it. Too many in the Senate still support the Jedi and they're lack of participation doesn't mean that they're traitors. And for all we know, the Jedi may have sat out of wars in the past.

 

Peacekeepers don't fight in wars. Soldiers fight in wars.

 

Aren't the blue-hatted UN guys both "peacekeepers" and "fighting in wars"? Or at least ones that are euphemistically called "police actions"?

 

This thread has been trashed, and is an absolute mess of selfishness. I sorta regret my involvement, as minor as it is.

 

Defense in this instance means "the act of defending someone or something from attack"
This MUST include FIGHTING. If the Jedi are say assigned to protect a house. If the house is attacked by armed invaders, should the Jedi do nothing or FIGHT BACK? Your argument is that the Jedi should just stand by, not fight or use violence in any way.
This would make the Jedi totally suck as protectors.
The Jedi are sworn to PROTECT the republic, this would include using violence against someone attacking it. They jedi have also sworn to obey the Senate and if the Senate tells them to fight and they refuse, they break their oath.

In TPM, Maul ATTACKED Qui-Gon and Qui-Gon FOUGHT BACK. He didn't stand by and allow Maul to kill him. He used his weapon and fought Maul. Something you for some reason argue that the Jedi must never do.

Nope, by not fighting, Palpatine would win three years earlier. There would be no Luke or Leia so things would probably be even worse than after RotS.
You keep making up an "magic" alternative that you think would solve everything yet without proof.
Your only argument is "The Jedi must not fight, by fighting they loose. Had they NOT fought they would have won." This isn't much of an argument, it sounds more like "because I say so."

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He does have all the power, he can issue order 66 at any time, he doesn't need the Senate's approval for that. If the Jedi had refused to fight, they could be painted as traitors and Palpatine has the excuse to kill them all.
Pong Krell whoever he/she is, are not IN the films and so are not relevant.

The war was unavoidable at this stage. The seps had built up a huge army and they planned to attack the republic. Obi-Wan overheard this. There had been negotiations between the seps and the republic but clearly the seps are NOT interested in any kind of diplomatic solution. They want war.
So if the republic does nothing, the seps WILL attack. Plus the seps had been involved in trying to murder a republic senator. That alone could be a declaration of war.

Even before the big drodi army was known, Mace said that IF the negotiantions fail THEN there would not be enough Jedi to PROTECT the republic. Clearly saying that the seps would turn violent and attack the republic.

The senate/Jedi knew that the TF was to take possesion of a large droid army on Geonosis. They knew that Dooku, the leader of the seps was there along with Nute and possibly some other seps leaders. If they attack Geonosis they can a) prevent the TF from getting this big army AND b) capture/take out Dooku and some other seps leader. This could END the war before it even begun.
And had the Jedi used some brains and some sensible tactics on Geonosis, they could have done exactly that. Dooku, Nute are dead or captured, the new droid army totally destroyed. The other seps would not be so eager to fight and would instead opt to solve things with diplomacy.
The Jedi would thus have averted a big war and they would be seen as heroes.

However they failed because they used retard tactics and didn't use their brains.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

And that's why they didn't until they did and that's when they started to lose their way. The things that the Jedi should do are the things that they did on Naboo, and what Luke did on Endor.

A Jedi can fight, but they shouldn't fight in wars. There's a difference. A Jedi fights as a last resort, not as a first one. That's why it was wrong to go to Geonosis. The matter was not done yet, which they even knew it wasn't. But they followed orders and compromised themselves. That was Barriss Offee's point. They wrapped themselves up on the decadence of war and took the offensive, rather than the defensive. In fighting, they made everything worse. This was one war they shouldn't have participated in.

No, it is coming from the lore. The Jedi's fighting is what makes things worse, not better. The Jedi could take other methods to deal with the Sith, rather than being soldiers in the war. Rather than fighting the war, they could seek out Dooku directly and deal with him, rather than get caught up in the conflicts of the various worlds and systems involved in the war.

Palpatine doesn't have all the power. That's in ROTS, he keeps gaining more and more power. Emergency Powers mainly centers around certain actions that the Chancellor can take, in times of galactic emergencies. But they do not have total control which is why throughout the war, the Senate still had executive powers that Palpatine did not. As the war went on, more powers were given to Palpatine.

MACE WINDU: "General Grievous will run and hide as he always does. He is a coward."

PALPATINE: "That maybe true, but with Count Dooku dead, he is the leader of the Droid Army, and I assure you, the Senate will vote to continue the war as long as Grievous is alive."

MACE WINDU: "Then the Jedi Council will make finding Grievous our highest priority."


OBI-WAN: "The Senate is expected to vote more executive powers to the Chancellor today."

ANAKIN: "Well, that can only mean less deliberating and more action. Is that bad? It will make it easier for us to end this war."

He has the authority to start a war, to create or use an existing army and even institute martial law. But certain powers still belong to the Senate, that is why he needed the war. The war created more fear, greed, anger and mistrust. It in turn resulted in the people turning over control to him. That is why Palpatine waited until the time was right and not a moment sooner to issue Order 66.

SIDOUS: "We have failed to break Master Yoda. We need more time to defeat him and the Jedi."

This was after Yoda's Force vision fight with Sidious. The time wasn't right because the circumstances were not right. Even if the Jedi had refused to fight in the war, he couldn't assure the Senate that they deserved to die. As to Pong Krell, he was Jedi Master who fell to the dark side because he immersed himself in the war and lost his sense of compassion towards the Clonetroopers and only cared about total victory at all costs. He is relevant because he is an example of how the war affects Jedi. We would see this again in Mace Windu.

The Separatists didn't really want to fight, but they were forced into it by the Sith. Mace and Yoda both believed that it was not too late to prevent the war through negotiations. But because the Senate reacted with fear, as Palpatine wanted them to, he was able to justify the war and the Jedi simply went along with it. The Jedi failed because they didn't do more to stop the war themselves. Not on Geonosis, but before then.

 

So you admit that fighting in a war makes one a soldier? If Naboo vs the Trade Federation was a "war", then Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan were soldier in it. Luke was also a soldier for the Rebellion in the galactic civil war.

 

They weren't. They were bodyguards for Padme. Their job was to do what we saw, deflect blaster bolts and let her lead the charge.

CAPT. PANAKA: "There are only twelve of us, Your Highness.... we have no army."

QUI-GON: "I cannot fight a war for you, Your Highness, only protect you."


OBI-WAN: "Do you think the Queen's idea will work?"

QUI-GON: "The Gungans will not easily be swayed, and we cannot use our power to help her."

Then Maul revealed himself the Jedi engaged him to keep him from capturing Padme for the Federation. The Jedi were in the right here. They weren't on Geonosis. The Jedi did not make a plan of attack on Naboo. They did not take charge, but let Padme and Nass formulate the plan and lead the charge.

Right and in ANH he wasn't a Jedi yet. In TESB, he leaves the war to train and then later, starts planning a rescue mission. That is why in ROTJ, he goes along to help his friends and then goes off to face the Sith. Why he stops carrying a blaster. He doesn't take charge on Endor, he lets Han lead from a plan set up by Madine.

 

Good point. However the Jedi also went to Geonosis to defend Obi-Wan.

Also, Luke was a soldier for the Rebellion during the OT.

 

On Naboo, two Jedi went to a war zone, they went on the offensive and they took part in the battle.
They were soldiers. Luke went to Endor, he took an active part in the fighting and he only left because he was endangering the mission. Had Vader not been on the DS2 and come to Endor, Luke would have kept with the mission and probably have done even more fighting and killing.

They are still soldiers, they take an active part in the fighting and are directly involving themselves in a battle.
You are splitting hairs here. Your argument, as best as I can understand it, is that as long as you are not giving orders, you are NOT a soldier and you are not taking part in a battle. Doesn't matter that you fight, only those that give orders are involved.

How does this even begin to make sense?
Did the Jedi get orders to go to Geonosis? We don't see it but Yoda is able to command the clone army, an army made for the republic. So he must have gotten an ok from Palpatine and most likely an order.
Say that they got orders to go to Geonosis and stop the Dooku and the seps and say that some General from some republic world came along and this general made the plan for the attack and issued the orders. Would this somehow make what the Jedi did in AotC all right? Now they aren't soldiers because they have someone that gives them orders?

No only a difference in your mind. If the Jedi stay out of the war and the seps launch an invasion of Coruscant, should the Jedi try and fight off the invaders or not? If they do, how are they NOT involved in the war?
You are still splitting hairs.

Geonosis was not a first resort. The seps have been negotiating with the republic for some time. All along they have been building up a big droid army and at the meeting, the various seps pledge their armies to Dooku and plan to attack the republic. Both the Jeid and the senate KNOW that the seps are preparing for war. Further negotiations would be pointless.
So only two options exist, fight or surrender.

Refusing to fight would at best not change anything, the war still happens and Palpatine gets more power. More probably the Jedi would get labeled as traitors and oath breakers and either dealt with directly or at some later point.

Based on what the Jedi knew at the time, going to Geonosis and stopping Dooku would be their BEST chance to prevent a big war. Take out Dooku, Nute and the droid army. War over.

Bariis Coffe or whoever he is isn't in the film so he too is irrelevant.

It doesn't come from the films.

The Jedi DID seek out Dooku and tried to deal with him directly, that is what they did towards the end of AotC. So the Jedi tried to exactly what you say. And what happened? They got decimated.
Had they been able to take out Dooku on Geonosis and capture Nute and destroy the new droid army, then the war would have been over. One battle and victory. The Jedi would be seen as heroes.
Once the war starts, the Jedi by themselves have little to no chance of dealing with Dooku directly. They can't fight whole armies by themselves, so they could do nothing to stop him.
Trying to negotiate would be equally pointless, the seps follow Dooku's orders and the senate have voted for war. So even if the Jedi wouldn't get arrested or killed by refusing to follow orders and let the republic fight on it's own. They would not be able to achieve anything. They can't take out Dooku and they can't stop the war.

Palpatine still has the power to issue order 66, he can do that at any time. What he needs is a reason to paint the Jedi as bad guys.

The war would still happen. The senate votes Palpatine extra power, he oks the clone army and war begins. The Jedi refuse to fight, they are labeled as traitors and dealt with. The war is still going on. So Palpatine would get rid of the Jedi and build up a climate of fear and everything.
Palpatine issued order 66 AFTER he had gotten the Jedi to act in a way that he could spin as them being traitors. Them refusing to fight would serve that end nicely.
Say that the Jedi refuse to fight but they are not killed directly, the public opinion would start to turn on them. Say the war goes on for some years, the republic is taking heavy losses and people would get even more angry at the Jedi. "People are dying by the millions and the Jedi just sit there and won't loft a finger to protect us." The Jedi can't stop the war if they take no part in it. So the war goes on, Palpatine gets more power and then he can issue order 66 at some point.
The best chance the Jedi have to end the war quickly is to take an active hand in it. Otherwise it will go on for however long Palpatine needs it to.

Nope, he isn't IN the films so he is not relevant. If he was supposed to be important, he should have been IN the films.

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The seps didn't want to fight? Did you miss the scene where all the seps leaders meet with Dooku, agree to form a big army and attack the republic? The seps WANT war, the film is very clear on this score. Why you try to deny it I can't understand. Even before this scene, Mace says that IF the negotiations with the seps fail THEN there won't be enough Jedi to protect the republic. Meaning that the seps could and probably would turn violent. The Sith are fooling/manipulating the seps yes but the seps leader we see in AotC, they have no problem with war. Poogle and the Geonosians were even planning to build a DS, a horrible weapon to kill billions. They are clearly NOT pacifist.

As for negotiations, negotiations were going on between the republic and the seps, we are told this at the start of AotC. The Jedi know this as well. Yet despite these negotiations, the seps are secretly building up a big army and they plan to use it. So the Jedi would know that negotiations are meaningless at this stage. The seps must have been building this new droid army for some time, and all the while they were negotiating with the republic. So clearly these "negotiations" didn't stop the seps from preparing for war. That would tell the Jedi that the seps are not really interested in a diplomatic solution. They want to use force and take what they want.

In closing, the one thing I will agree with you on is that Jedi Jedi should not be the ones to make plans or strategic or tactical decisions. Because as AotC showed, they are bad at it.

Bye for now.
The Guarding Dark

 

Yes and no. They went there to rescue Obi-wan, but with the Emergency Powers being given to Palpatine and Yoda heading to Kamino to collect the clones, their mission of mercy became a mission of war. That's why Barriss said that everything began to go downhill when they did that.

BARRISS: "I did it because I've come to realize what many of people in the Republic have come to realize, that the Jedi are the ones responsible for this war, that we've so lost our way that we have become villains in this conflict, that we are the ones that should be put on trial, all of us! And my attack on the Temple was an attack on what the Jedi have become, an army fighting for the dark side, fallen from the light that we once held so dear. This Republic is failing! It's only a matter of time."

And Yoda says what he says to Obi-wan.

YODA: "Victory? Victory, you say? Master Obi-Wan, not victory. The shroud of the dark side has fallen. Begun the Clone War has."

Technically, he is, but he actually stops in ROTJ. He still maintains the rank of Commander, but Luke doesn't operate as a soldier in the film. He isn't a soldier when he's rescuing Han and when arriving on Endor, he operates more like Obi-wan and Qui-gon did in TPM than Anakin and Obi-wan did in AOTC, TCW and ROTS.

They weren't on the offensive. They were protecting Padme, not acting as generals. That is why they do not formulate the plan of attack, nor do they negotiate the alliance between the two races. Their job as told to them by the Council was to protect Padme.

MACE WINDU: "Protect the Queen, but do not intercede if it comes to war until we have the Senate's approval."

When Luke was on Endor, he wasn't fighting. He and Leia stopped four Scout Troopers from warning the Imperials at the shield generator, but he wasn't going in as a soldier. That was acceptable as a Jedi and because he chose to confront his father, he kept from being a soldier.

When the Jedi act as soldiers as in the Clone Wars, they start betraying their ideals. When they took part in missions like Naboo, they weren't soldiers, they were protectors who were there to ensure that their charge wasn't killed. That was part of their mandate when they left Naboo and it was again their mandate upon returning to Naboo. What they did on Naboo was acceptable as part of the Jedi Code and why actions like that doesn't affect the balance of the Force.

Their priority in that case is to protect the Senate and the Chancellor, which they do by defending the Senate Rotunda and the Chancellor's office. What they shouldn't do is lead an offensive to destroy the Separatist ships.

And as Yoda notes in the junior novelization, the Senate acted out of irrational fear. That there was still a chance to avoid fighting in the war despite knowing about what was going on out on Geonosis. So there was still time as far as he was concerned and that by going to fight, matters became worse.

She's a Jedi seen in AOTC and played a part in TCW..






But she isn't in ROTS because she was locked up in the Citadel for her crimes at the end of season five.

The Jedi operating on their own to take out Dooku and force a treaty was their best method of victory, not fighting a war that was causing more damage. There was enough Jedi to take the fight to him, rather than fighting all over the place. The Sith knew that which is why they knew the Jedi would never break their tenant to the Republic, because they lost their way. Had they not been so much at the beck and call of the Republic, they would have never done what they did in the war.

Again, the Jedi can serve in ways other than fighting for the Republic. It took Palpatine time to gain that power and by not participating, the Jedi foil his plans and concentrate on the real issue, rather than the smokescreen.

Doesn't matter, he's part of the story.

The leadership was going along with Dooku's plans because they were left with no choice. Either participate or die. They wouldn't have even gotten this far if not for the Sith.

 

Luke is a soldier for the Rebellion in the entire OT. Not all his actions reflect that, but was active in Rebellion missions. Also the Jedi went to Geonosis to save Obi-Wan.

"I will take what Jedi we have left and go to Geonosis and help Obi-Wan."

 

Yeah Samuel Vimes, don't you know that Luke wasn't a soldier when he accepted that military mission from the Rebellion? And don't you know he wasn't fighting when he fought and killed those scout troopers?

 

I am sorry but this is nonsense. You are twisting what the word "fight" means in order to pretend that Luke didn't fight in RotJ, that Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon didn't fight on Naboo.
Luke fought and KILLED scout troopers on Endor. He took part in a military mission, he had a military rank and he went knowing that he would need to fight and kill the enemy. He left because he was becoming a liability to the mission and he wanted to save his father.
Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan went back to Naboo, knowing that there would a fight once there. They took an active part in the fighting and destroyed many enemy droids.

Sure fits both Luke and Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan.

It can also means this;

This also fits what the Jedi do. The Jedi are charged with PROTECTING the republic, if said republic is attacked the Jedi would have to FIGHT.
Except your versions of Jedi, that will just stand by and watch.

In short, you are twisting words to mean something other than what they do in order to argue your point. As long as your are doing this, any further discussion regarding this is pointless.

And what happens in AotC? They get Senate approval. Yet according to you, that approval is STILL not good enough.

Also, what does intercede mean?

You argue that the Jedi should try and mediate a peace between the seps and the senate in AotC and here we have dialogue that says that the Jedi CAN'T do this without senate approval.

Really? Say that the seps had made a weapon that would destroy all life in the galaxy and it was kept on one of their worlds, guarded by armies. They are planning to use this weapon and if they do, all life ends. Since you argue that Jedi must NEVER go on the offensive, they would just sit there and wait for the seps to use their weapon and then they all die.

Or another, less out there example, say the jedi become aware that the seps have gathered a lot of ships in one place and are planning to attack ten republic worlds and bomb them to pieces. They don't know which worlds however. The sensible thing to do here is to attack the seps ships while they are all in one place in order to prevent a deadly attack that will kill millions. But not the Jedi no, they prefer to sit on their behinds and only make defensive efforts.
If you do this, you will loose the war. So the Jedi "tactics" is you want to call it that, would lead to defeat.

Or take RotJ, a new DS is being built, once ready it will be used to destroy planets. The rebels go on the offensive to destroy the DS BEFORE it is ready. A plan that you argue the Jedi would never do.
So IF the Jedi had been in charge of the rebellion, they would have let the DS2 be built and just watch as it destroys worlds.
In short, in your view the Jedi are useless.

No there wasn't. The senate voted for war and gave the Jedi orders to fight. If they refuse they become oath breakers and traitors. And they could get locked up or killed.
Even ignoring that, how do you supposed the Jedi could have negotiated a peace? The seps want war and they are under Dooku's thumb. So no chance there. The senate are under Palpatine's thumb so no chance there either. The two sith are controlling both sides and as long as they want war, there is NO diplomatic way to solve this. Killing Dooku early might have ended the war. The Jedi had that chance on Geonosis but blew it.

If the republic/the jedi don't attack on Geonosis, what happens? Padme, Anakin and Obi-Wan all die.
The seps launch their attack on the republic and war begins that way. But now the republic are much more at a disadvantage. Their attack weakened the seps. Had the Jedi used their brains on Geonosis they would have taken out Dooku, Nute, the new droid army and the war would have been over.

Again, watch AotC, the Jedi do exactly this and they LOOSE. I don't know how more clear it can be. The Jedi CAN NOT take out Dooku on their own. They tried and lost hundreds of Jedi.
Dooku has an army, they do not. After Geonosis, how would they even find Dooku?

If they refuse direct orders from the Senate they are oath breakers and would face a lot of trouble. And since Palpatine needs the Jedi to loose their standing among the senate and the general public, this would work to his advantage.
You are still making up a "magic" fix all solution that the Jedi could have take. No proof, no evidence, just "The Jedi should not have done fought, then they would have won."

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No choice??
Again, watch AotC. the sep leaders, RotS calls them that, meet with Dooku and he puts a treaty in front of them. Combine their armies and attack the republic and enforce their demands. Most if not all of them AGREE with this. He didn't threaten them or anything. He tricked them and played them for fools yes. They went along with this WILLINGLY. They had taken part in a military build up for some time, all while they were "negotiating" with the republic. It very much seems that those "negotiations" were nothing more than a smoke screen while they built up their army. So it seems they never wanted a diplomatic solution, war was always their goal.

So again, how are the Jedi suppose to convince these warmongers not to fight? Esp in light of their great advantage in weapons and numbers. The sep leader think they have an easy fight ahead of them. The war will end quickly and the republic soundly defeated. Then they can take what they want.

To sum up, if you keep twisting the meanings of words or make up new meanings and make up "magic" solutions with no evidence, then I won't be continuing this discussion.

Bye.
The Guarding Dark

 

The Jedi on Naboo weren't there to fight, they were to defend Padme. It was okay to do that, but nothing more. The film makes that explicitly clear. Destroying Battle Droids was necessary in order to protect her. It is far different from what happens during the Clone Wars. Luke helping his friends on Endor was more right than what he did on Hoth.

I didn't say that they stand by and watch. I said that they don't participate in the war and pursue a separate agenda, which doesn't cause them to go rouge and doesn't push the Force out of balance.

Because it played into Palpatine's plans and corrupted the Jedi. The Council doesn't realize this until it is too late.

Depending on their mandate, most likely it meant not only offering advice on how to proceed, but negotiate the peace.

Because they've gotten so involved in the Republic's affairs, that they no longer have the guts to go against the Senate and pursue a separate agenda. Yoda doesn't raise his objections to going to Geonosis to fight and instead blindly goes to war.

In the case of the Separatists, the Jedi wouldn't have gone to war. They would have continued to negotiate and investigate the matter, rather than rush to war and pursue peace with the least amount of resistance. In the matter of the Death Star II, the Jedi would have gone and disable the machine, but they wouldn't have gone in with the intention of starting a war. They would after disabling it, sought a peaceful solution without having to kill so many.

The Jedi never had a chance, that's the point. They were never going to win at Geonosis, mainly because Yoda chose to save Anakin and Obi-wan. Had he let them die, he would have been able to stop Dooku from escaping. But beyond that, going to fight was never the real solution. That's why Yoda acknowledges the failure to stop the war from even happening. The Jedi maintain peace through negotiation, not by starting wars. That has been their creed since the beginning. It didn't matter that the Jedi didn't have better tactics on Geonosis or not, they were never going to win because it was an unwinnable situation.

 

The Jedi could have easily won at Geonosis if Anakin hadn't rushed at Dooku alone.