PT Some Keys to the Prequels

The Jedi could also easily have won if Mace had taken 3-4 other masters with him when confronting Dooku and had 5-10 other Jedi guard the corridor. Then he could put his blade at Dooku's throat and say "Stand down." If Dooku refuses and sends in droids, the other Jedi can hold them off long enough for Mace to say "Give up or die." If Dooku still refuses, then chop, he is dead.

Obi-Wan and Anakin could have radioed for help when they spotted Dooku. Yoda could have brought some clone troopers with him and let them disable Dooku's ship or collapse the tunnel. Then Dooku would have been caught.

But the plot needs the Jedi to be stupid and so they are.

@darth-sinister

Actually that is what I have been saying for some time now.
But, to quote Spock, "your argument seem to preclude the possibility of a no-win scenario."

I have been arguing for several posts that the Jedi didn't have an "easy win" alternative. They had only various bad alternatives, a "no-win" situation in essence. You agree, good!

First, the Jedi DIDN'T start the war. The seps had built up a big army and were planning to use it.
Obi-Wan overheard this. So either the seps started the war by building up an army and by murdering republic citizens and trying to murder a republic senator. If not, the senate voted extra powers to Palpatine and he started the war by giving an order to the Jedi to go to Geonosis with the clone army. The Jedi got an order and obeyed it. Obeying an order is NOT the same as starting a war.

Second, the Jedi are the guardians of the republic and have been for 30 000 years. That means they would be called upon to FIGHT If the republic is attacked. THAT is their creed. The Jedi are trained to use a ligthsaber, they are trained to fight, they are called the "Guardians of Peace and Justice" not "mediators." Their job is to protect others, by force if need be. Also you keep using your made up meaning of the word "fight", the only SW movie that didn't have a Jedi fighting is ESB. Yoda didn't fight and Luke was not yet a Jedi. In all other films a Jedi have fought, end of story.

You misunderstand, the war has already begun, the seps and the republic are at war. The Jedi learn that the seps have massed their forces for a major attack and they have the choice to either attack the seps forces before they can attack, which would save many lives. Or do nothing and let the seps attack and millions would die. You argue that they should let millions die, not really the moral thing for the Jedi to do in my book.

"Disable the machine" just like that? And a peaceful solution? With Emepror Palpatine that have tried to wipe them all out, and who is a Sith, and who the Jedi think must DIE for balance to be restored?
I really can't see this working on any level.

I am reminded of ST Voyager where the ship is quite often attacked by aliens and instead of shooting back, they issue some 25 warnings before trying to shoot back. By that time the ship had already gotten so badly damaged that they have to run away.

To me, the later seasons of TNG and most of DS9 showed that sometimes violence is the least bad alternative out the bad ones you are faced with. That any peace treaty might not be preferable to war.

There is no separate agenda, that is what you keep missing. Even if the Jedi don't fight, the war WILL still happen, either by the seps attacking or the republic using the clones.
Any diplomacy is doomed to failure because the sith control both sides.
Plus the Jedi could get branded as traitors and cowards and possibly be arrested or worse.
The Jedi would go rouge if they break their oaths and disobey their orders.
In short, this alternative would probably be worse and not better.

As I said above, the Jedi could have caught or killed Dooku, Nute and destroyed the new droid army. That would have ended the war. You would still have Palpatine and the clone army but the Jedi would be the heroes that ended the war before it even started. This would set Palpatine back a lot.

If you argue that the Jedi should have been more active before AotC then I totally agree.
The events of TPM should have been a major alarm clock for the Jedi. Their worst enemy is back and was working with the TF, who controls a big army. The senate was corrupt to the point of not even believing that Naboo had been attacked and only managed to sack it's leader.
Any person with a modicum of intelligence would realize that the senate was broken and that they need to be a lot more alert and keep a close eye on the senate and what is going on.
But it seems the Jedi learnt little from TPM.

Bye for now.
The Guarding Dark

 

The dialogue here is naive (to say the least) and meaningless. They can protect the Queen but not intercede if it comes to a battle? But they're ok to defend the Queen? Let's break this down a little. What does intercede mean? To intervene on behalf of another..... So, by defending the Queen they have chosen a side and any action that they take is interceding - intervening on her behalf. They cut down droids (enemy combatants)...by the very nature of defending the Queen they are interceding. They literally can't defend the Queen and not intercede - it's an impossible order. It's a meaningless order.

Why is what Luke does on Endor more right than what he did on Hoth? How have you come to this moral judgement?

What is this magical agenda they should pursue. It seems clear that they are expected by the Republic to fight to defend the Republic. So, how do they remain in the Republic and do anything other ? Or...shoudl they leave the Republic (which they are sworn to defend)....if they do what power do they have to pursue any other agenda? They can't negotiate for the Republic because they no longer serve it. What, exactly (rather than the vague conception of 'something else') do you actually propose they do?

Hmmm...but you are making this judgement on the retrospective basis of 'it was bad because it played into Palpatine's plan' - and that doesn't even make any sense. How could it play to Palpatine's plan unless....they did exactly what Palaptine expected them to do? The very fact that it plays to Palpatine's plan points to the fact that what the Jedi do is exactly what they are expected to do. You are basing what the Jedi 'should' do on the basis of ...nothing we are shown in the movies. They carry weapons, they intercede on behalf of the Queen - they tackle Maul who, as far as they are aware, is involved in the battle. They make it clear to Palpatine that if it comes to war there aren't enough Jedi to protect the Republic.

It makes no sense for the Jedi to 'play into Palpatine's plan' if what they do is somehow outside of the expectation placed upon them by their position.

So...what peace did they negotiate while taking out enemy combatants, including Maul? Did they negotiate any peace? Did Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan exceed their mandate? The simple truth is...they can't protect the Queen and not intercede - their orders are impossible to enact.

No...Yoda doesn't raise his objections to fight.....so, how are you aware that he had any? But...let's say he did, how would he then be blindly going to war? He must surely be aware of what is at stake.... that's not blindness.

But...if they go against the Senate...what does that even mean? The Jedi are as aware as the Senate that, though the Separatists have been 'negotiating' with the Jedi those 'negotiations' have simply been buying them time to build up the huge forces that they are about to unleash upon the Republic.The ngotiations have been a sham on the part of the Separatists, who now have what they believe is an essentially un-opposed military advantage. Where is the possibility of negotiation?

And the Jedi are going to 'negotiate' on behalf of the Republic....who they no longer represent? How?

You argued before that what the Jedi should do is capture Dooku...which is exactly what the Jedi attempt to do. You then argue they shouldn't have captured him on Geonosis....but what does that mean? That they should let Dooku escape from where they know he is, let the droid army disperse and attack the Republic and then look for him? Like a game of hide and seek? What sense is there in that?

But that isn't what the Jedi do, so clearly it isn't what the Jedi would do. And.....they would investigate and negotiate? Isn't that exactly the inaction that the Senate was guilty of with the invasion of Naboo? Meanwhile the Separatists attack the Republic, the Republic fight back and....the Jedi 'negotiate' and 'investigate'.... Meanwhile the hard-pressed citizens of the Republic think..'I'm so glad those Jedi have kept their hands clean, it'd be terrible for them to have to get their hands dirty like we have to'? And the clones will think 'good of those Jedi not to lead us into war, I'm so much better off being sent to my death by Senators.'?

You do understand that the Separatists are going to attack? You know that, yes?

They could have captured Dooku if Anakin hadn't rushed in...and I never understood why Yoda saved Obi-Wan and Anakin instead of bringing Dooku down. He ought to have sacrificed them for the sake of the galaxy....he should have been able to let them go, for the greater good.

You keep making these claims about what the creed of the Jedi has 'always been', 'since the beginning' but none of that is borne out in the movies. Ever. The notions of what the Jedi 'should' have done are invented on some basis not present in the movies. How can that be the story the movies are telling? Especially when Palpatine's plan revolves around knowing how others will act. If the Jedi creed, and their duty, isn't based upon their fighting for the Republic, how can he set up his plan around them doing exactly that? That makes no sense.

 

Correction, if Anakin had taken his training seriously and not slacked off on it, then he could have taken Dooku regardless of working with Obi-wan or not.

Obi-wan says that they can handle Dooku and there isn't time to wait for back-up. That isn't being stupid. Overconfident, but not stupid. Yoda did have troops with him, but they were killed. Remember, he asks for his ship and as we saw, the clones that were with Obi-wan and Anakin were killed. The same happened with Yoda.

That's because unlike Kirk, the Jedi didn't change the rules in order to win. They just merely played the game and lost.

Whoever throws the first punch is guilty. It doesn't matter if they were following orders, they threw the first punch. They went there to fight, not to reach a settlement through negotiation.

The Jedi assisted the Republic, but they did not serve as soldiers in those wars. They helped, but they did not cross a line that compromised their ethics, much less screwed with the Force.

The war began when Mace ignited his saber at Jango's neck while two hundred Jedi waited to fight. The Confederacy had not yet declared war, nor launched a first strike. You can disagree with that notion, but at the end of the day, it is what happened and it is when the Jedi lost their way.

We saw Obi-wan disable the tractor beam without using his Lightsaber. A group of Jedi doing something similar wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility.

Palpatine would be eliminated which is in line with the Jedi Code and the Force. Afterwards, they would have gotten Jerjerrod to surrender with the DS disabled and communications jammed.

The war could be fought without the Jedi's help, since it winds up being done that way later on. As to the Sith, they would be removed from the equation and then it would end. Even being branded as traitors, which still happens, doesn't stop them from operating on their own. But execution would be difficult for Palpatine to pull off right now.

Intercede means taking charge of the assault, issuing orders and using aggressive negotiations in the throne room. The only thing they could do was make sure that she was not killed and keep an eye out for Maul.

On Hoth, he was just a solider fighting for war and adventure. On Endor, he was there to watch out for his friends as they took out the shield generator.

I've told you, let the Republic fight the war. They have an army now and they have personnel to lead them. All the Jedi would do is seek out Dooku on their own terms and not the terms of the Republic, then remove him. This would result in the surrender of the Confederacy as they are leaderless and thus allow for negotiations to resume.

The point is that the Jedi should not have been so involved in the Republic that Palpatine could exploit them the way that he did. The Jedi had changed from what they were once to what they became, because they willingly believed it was okay to be at the beck and call of the Senate and not their own agency as they were before. Meaning that when war comes, the Jedi fight in it because of their complete loyalty forces them to do so. That they couldn't remain neutral or seek other options without having to fight in war.

When the Jedi arrived at Naboo at the start of the film, the task was simple. Meet with Gunray and start working on the negotiations to end the blockade and get things back to normal. They were attacked and forced to defend themselves. Had it not been for the Droidekas, they would have gotten on the bridge and Nute would surrender and call off the blockade. That is the kinds of methods the Jedi had employed successfully. Their job now was protection, not combat. Protecting the Queen was their mandate. Leading the troops into war was not. The Council suspected that she would fight, but they could do nothing more than what we saw which was not interceding. Not leading troops, nor taking part in the negotiations once the battle was over.

As to Maul, that was different. Their task was to protect Padme from him and find out if he was a Sith. Capture him if possible, kill if necessary and as a last resort.

He was aware, but that does not mean that he enjoys war. Nor wants to participate. That is why he has a mournful look on his face, because now there is war and the Jedi must fight. Yoda believed that what was going on was nothing more than mere panic and not the actions of a rational congress.

The point is to not doing what Palpatine wants them to do, but to do it differently. To change the nature of the game. Say bring Dooku away from Geonosis and to some place like Kashyyyk or Chal. Lead him into the trap and capture him, but do so without informing the Senate of their goals.

And yet those same people were blaming the Jedi for starting the war and supporting the corrupt government. They disliked that the Jedi got involved, much less how they did. The Senate, sadly, was filled with fearful bureaucrats who as Palpatine said, no longer cared about the common good. They only cared about profit and keeping out of other affairs. They were too indecisive on what they should or shouldn't do and that indecisiveness was how Palpatine gained power.

 

Yoda had troops with him? Not as far as the film show.

There isn't time? Disproven by the film. Yoda is able to go from the forward command post to the hangar and he arrived a few minutes after Obi-Wan and Anakin. And Yoda could have brought a few other Jedi with him.
But he didn't and this goes with the overall theme of the PT, the bad guys win because the good guys are busy holding their Idiot Balls.

But in other threads you have argued that the Sith beat the Jedi because the sith changed and adapted. They altered their MO and changed their tactics. The jedi did not. The Jedi did not change and adapt to a new situation. They were stuck in the past, they were rigid, dogmatic and unflexible.

Yet here you argue that the Jedi HAVE changed, that they no longer follow their old ways.
You argue that fighting in a war is something the Jedi have never done and must never do.
But at the end of AotC the Jedi do fight and so this would be a change to how the Jedi act.

So you condem the jedi for not changing and you also condem them for changing. The Jedi can't win with you.

Seriously? The person who starts a war is NOT the person who gives the order but the common soldiers that fires the first shot???
So Hilter didn't start WW2, the first German soldier that fired a shot did.

If we go with this "first punch" logic, the seps have murdered republic citizens, they have tried to murder a republic senator. Is this not "throwing the frist punch"? If the leader of a country hired assassins that killed US citizens and tried to kill the President, couldn't that be seen as an act of war?

And any negotations were doomed to fail at that point, the seps had shown very clearly that they aren't interested in talking, they want war. And since the senate voted for war, they too aren't interested in talking. So jedi have no mandate to negotiate, no one to negotiate with and even if they did make some sort of deal with the seps, it has no value sicne they don't represent the republic any more.

And you can keep ignoring the fact that the seps had secretly been buildng up an army that they intend to use. That they have killed republic citizens. That the order to use the army wasn't made by the jedi, but by the senate/Palpatine and he was the one to declare war.
The war began when the senate/Palaptine gave the Jedi orders to go to Geonosis with the clone army to counter the seps.

And was this a premanent disabling or just a temporary one?
If the latter, what would stop the Empire from just resetting and the DS is fully operational again.
Plus the difference between a simple tracotr beam and the super laser is so huge that this does not even begin to make sense.

Right, Palpatine would get eliminated just like, that, no problem.
You keep using "magic, fix all" solutions that you argue that the Jedi should take. And none of these have even the sligthest basis in the films.

I keep bring this up but you still keep missing the point, the Jedi TRIED to eliminate Dooku on geonosis and they LOST. They can't fight the droid army by themselves, the films was VERY clear here. So the Jedi CAN'T "eliminate" the sith on their own. You keep saying that they can but the films prove you wrong.

They are still fighting, they have chosen a side and actively oppose the other.

Really? I tought Luke fought because he wanted to stop the evil empire and restore freedom to the galaxy.
Which pretty much is the same reason why he goes to Endor, the Empire must be stopped, the DS2 destroyed before it is completed. Luke knows the stakes and he doesn't hide behind rules and dogma, he gets involved.

Ok, let's assume that the Jedi had succeeded in taking out Dooku at Geonosis. That Nute was also caught and the new droid army totally destroyed.
Would this have ended the war yes or no?

[/QUOTE]

But the Jedi have served the Republic for 30 000 years. In all that time have the republic never been attacked? Didn't the Sith rule the galaxy at one point? Didn't the Jedi try and fight them?
If they didn't, why did the Sith want revenge?

As I said above, in the past you have argued that Jedi had become stagnant and stuck in their ways, so have they changed or not?

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

Yoda orders that his ship be brought to him. He cannot fly a LAAT by himself and we saw that he was piloted by Clonetroopers. Any troopers onboard would have been killed just as Obi-wan and Anakin's were by the defenses of the hangar.

Yoda is able to arrive as he did because he left before they reached the hangar. And he cannot bring others with him because they're all too busy fighting to break off and join him. He was the only one who wasn't fighting, but directing the fight.

The Jedi had changed to fight the Sith in the last war, which lead to them being where they are in the PT. Before then, the Jedi had helped out during times of war, but had never crossed the lines that they did with the Sith. When the war ended, it ended because the Jedi had changed.But they didn't change beyond that. They were fighting the same war as before, rather than doing things differently. The Sith did change which is why the Jedi did not consider that Dooku was being truthful in the fact that Sidious had control over the Senate, because they couldn't accept that the Sith would do something different and they wouldn't know about it. Their arrogance in thinking that the methods they chose was the best and that they had no more to learn about the Force, blinded them to many truths and their abilities weakened as a result.

We don't know what the Separatists done other than attempt to kill Padme, but it was not as an act of war, but an act of personal revenge by Nute Gunray for being embarrassed by her ten years earlier. And at this point, the Separatists have not attacked the Republic. They have threatened it privately, but not publicly, nor have they actually done anything to warrant an attack by the Republic, other than they were wanting to break away from the government.

Only because the Jedi let themselves be rolled over like that and lost any power that they once had to effect change. They lacked the courage to speak out against the war and the reasons behind it.

Disabling means disabling. What Obi-wan did did not require a Lightsaber. What would happen with the superlaser would require destroying the computers that fire the laser and destroying the focusing crystal that allows the weapon to work. Such crystals of an enormous size are rare finds, which is why it took twenty years to get the Death Star operational.

A Jedi Order that had changed wouldn't need Anakin and Palpatine wouldn't be so powerful that he couldn't be stopped. This is why it is a hypothetical situation. You do know what those are.

They can, just not the way they did it. By changing and adapting, they would do things differently and thus be able to take Dooku without needing to deal with the entire army.

They didn't choose a side. They just merely protected their charge.They protected her when she left Naboo and they protected her when she returned. The Council knew that she was planning to fight. Their mandate is protection, not war. If they actively opposed the Federation, there would have been two hundred Jedi there and they would have came up with the plan of attack, negotiated the alliance between the Gungans and the Naboo and forced Nute to surrender. Had Maul not be there, the Jedi would continue to flank Padme to the throne room and then stand guard in the corridor, while Padme negotiated the surrender of Nute's forces.

YODA: "Ready, are you? What know you of ready? For eight hundred years have I trained Jedi. My own counsel will I keep on who is to be trained! A Jedi must have the deepest commitment, the most serious mind. This one a long time have I watched. Never his mind on where he was. Hmm? What he was doing. Hmph. Adventure. Heh! Excitement. Heh! A Jedi craves not these things. You are reckless!"

"It's about a young boy leaving his world and going off into the unknown, to a great adventure. [...] Star Wars, carries that story on to what happens after you leave and in this particular case, there's a slightly more classic edge to it, in that the fates are there to kind of help Luke realize that, in certain cases you don't have choices. You know, if you choose not to fight evil, eventually it'll just push you up into the wall and you just don't have a choice. It's an inevitability that you can't escape from. And in this particular case, he's torn between what he really wants to do; which is go off and join the academy and fight for the Rebellion and have excitement; but then he's also committed to helping his uncle, and to help his uncle build his farm, and his uncle's raised him, he's like his father, and he has his obligations to help put the homestead together."

--George Lucas, ANH DVD Commentary.

Not so much because Palpatine would have found a way to keep them from going to trial, without blowing his cover. He would have someone free the Confederacy leadership and then find someone else to be the leader.

Which I answered.

 

All of this is either conjecture or EU. There is none of this within the movies (that the Jedi had changed etc.)....how is this a story that the prequels tell? How could a story be told in terms of notions that are never addressed within the movies?

Are you kidding? We know (as do the Jedi and the Senate) that the Separatists have secretly been building a massive droid army, have concentrated a large fleet of TF ships on Geonosis (where the army is being created) and are definitely going to attack the Republic and hold it to ransom, believing that the Republic will be overwhelmed by their military power.

If someone had got wind of the attack on Pearl Harbour, would it be wrong for them to attack the Japanese fleet because the Japanese hadn't publicly threatened war?

What power they once had. All that we know is they don't have such power. Again you are explaining the story the movies tell by means of 'events' that do not exist within the movies. How can the movies be telling a story that we are never told about?

Oddly...the Jedi resort (despite their numbers) to having the TF ships shot down on Geonosis, rather than 'simply' infiltrating the ships (in some magical way) and 'disabling' them....yet, that second option is what you consider the 'Jedi way'. You appear to have the Jedi operating in a very different universe than the one I see.

All of which is conjecture....that's what hypothetical means as much as anything - and not one jot of this is in any way elucidated in the films,so how could the films possibly be telling this story?

So, in some vague 'magical' way that requires no actual description, no actual explanation, just some 'magical' "other" way?

Of course they chose a side. The moment they cut down droids to help get the Queen off of Naboo they chose a side. The Jedi tell the Jedi to protect the Queen....not the Queen and the TF leadership. They are on the side of the Naboo. They have chosen a side. They are interceding, so their orders are contradictory. Intercede means to intervene on behalf of...it doesn't mean actively plan or lead (are we going to have another argument about Lucas' very own dictionary definitions?)

Whoa...whoa!! What?! But...

You've been arguing that there isn't a "no-win" situation. In fact you've been arguing that the Jedi should take some magical "other" path and capture Dooku (but not while he is on Geonosis, not while they know where he is...) but now....even if they capture Dooku (as you demand is what they ought to do) then.....you say here that will make no difference because...Palpatine will find a way around Dooku's capture. So...this reallyis a "no-win" situation?

Or, would it be that if the Jedi were using some "other" magical way then that would reduce (magically, presumably) Palpatine's power to overcome this obstacle?

 

Because that is how Lucas is as a storyteller. The stuff in the novelizations and the cartoons expand upon that universe and because they're part of the canon lore, they're very much valid. There are bits and pieces within each film, the other material goes into detail about it.

There's a difference. The US had a military force that was designed to fight a war, in the event they choose to get involved. Their mandate was clear from the get go. The Jedi were created to protect, but not be an army for the Republic. Also, the Force goes out of balance in part because the Jedi fight in the war and fighting in wars begins to corrupt the Jedi.

The Republic had a full bore military presence once. That is established in AOTC. The Jedi were the guardians of peace and justice, which was established in ANH. AOTC has Mace state that they aren't an army. We know that the Jedi fall in part because of their ties to the Republic. We know in TCW that the Jedi had lost their way from what they once were. It isn't difficult to put it together.

A group of Jedi did infiltrate one of the Federation ships during the arena battle in order to shut down the Droid Army. They didn't realize that the ship was a decoy and that the real control device was kept elsewhere. Had it not been, the battle would have ended much sooner. They rely on the clones since they don't know where to proceed next.

ROTS states that the Sith know more about the Force than what the Jedi know. Darth Sidious is powerful as a result of that. None of the Jedi can beat him because they didn't continue to learn and grow. We know none of them can retain their identity until Qui-gon, who discovered it on his own. The Jedi who do this learn from him. It isn't difficult to conclude that Anakin is necessary because of their own arrogance and hubris, which Yoda says exists and eventually acknowledges in himself.

It isn't magical. It means that they would have approached everything differently and would have been more in tune with the Force, than they were as they are in the films.

Padme isn't going to kill Nute Gunray. She's going to get him to sign a treaty through aggressive negotiations. The pilots were going to destroy the Federation control ship so that Nute would have no choice but to surrender and sign her treaty. The Jedi's job was to make sure that she made it to Nute. If her intention was to just kill him in cold blood, then the Jedi would stop her from doing so. They would know it just as they knew she was pretending to be a handmaiden most of the time they were around her on Tatooine and when they left Naboo.

They need to stop Dooku first and they need him alive to find out who he is working for. Simply turning him over wouldn't work. They would need to interrogate him and in doing so, make an effort to find out if he is alone in this or involved with the Sith. And if so, who the other is.

 

Really?

Not according to Lucas. You claim here that Lucas is writing a story within the context of the EU...he is not.

He has said "There are two worlds here. There's my world, which is the movies, and there's this other world that has been created, which I say is the parallel universe - the licensing world of the books, games and comimc books. They don't intrude on my world, which is a select period of time [but] they do intrude in between the movies. I don't get too involved in the parallel universe." - interview with Cinescape magazine, July 2001

In terms of that stuff in between (lest there be some misunderstanding)

"I don't read that stuff. I haven't read any of the novels. I don't know anything about that world. That's a different world than my world......we would have two universes, my universe and then this other one" - Starlog magazine, August 2005. (Just to note, this absolutely contradicts the claim of at least one author...)

In what way do those quotes match what you are saying? Lucas is telling his story, the EU tells stories from other perspectives based upon what those authors see. In no way is your claim that "that is how Lucas is a storyteller" makes any sense. He isn't writing stories based upon EU...it is the other way around.

There's no difference on a moral perspective, which is actually what you were arguing. And this idea of the Jedi not fighting for the Republic is an idea that you have introduced which has no basis in the movies.

How is it established in AOTC that the Republic had a "full bore military presence once" ? Mace states there were not enough Jedi to protect the Republic, meaning they were not an army in terms of numeric reasoning. Of course by omission (you can pretend he never said the first line) you might imagine some deeper meaning....

And what TCW 'shows us' is a later invention, no such conception is in the movies - which is why you have to bring up TCW. How can something that is invented and written at a (much) later date tell us anything about the stories the movies were telling?

So...it could be said that in trying your suggested course of action the Jedi damaged their own chances. Had they simply destroyed what they believed was the command ship ( a much faster operation) they would have discovered much earlier that it was a red-herring. In fact this course of events simply highlights how stupendously unsuccessful your ideas of what the Jedi ought to do would be.

Is that what ROTS "states"? I don't remember that ever being stated. But then I don't see that others can't destroy Sidious, I merely see that they don't....and in one of those cases it is specifically because Anakin stops them...

You are revealing your own opinion of what you see in the story. ROTS "states" no such thing.

It is 'magical' in as much as you have offered no serious alternative path that the Jedi could take - just some vague notion of an 'ethereal' other path...that is all you can offer.

All utterly irrelevant to the point, which is that the Jedi are on the side of one party and not the other. They have chosen a side. They are, by cutting down enemy combatants, interceding.

How can they interrogate him? Are they to torture him? Are the Republic, if they find that they have him, not going to ask that they hand him over? What if he refuses to talk? This is utter nonsense because...the Jedi are in a no-win situation.

 

The movies/TCW/Son of Dathomir comics/and everything onward from September 2014 are now canon. The stuff before that isn't. Lucas isn't in charge anymore so we can throw those quotes out now.

 

Not in terms of what story the PT told..... Lucas was not working like that as a storyteller, which was the claim made.

And...could not care less about 'canon', which anyway has little to say in terms of understanding what Lucas was saying with the PT - which is the basis of this discussion, after all.

 

I'm referring mainly to the novelizations, TCW and "Rebels". The few other EU stories I mentioned, like "Dark Lord" was to give a demonstration. The novelizations build off Lucas's world. Also, considering he just went and bought a Star Wars comic the other day, I'd say that he's read something at some point. Just as he had read "Dark Empire".

The moral perspective is important. This is why the citizens of the Republic started turning on the Jedi, because they went against everything that they stood for for so long, by going to Geonosis. Much also like Dark Yoda told Yoda that he is the result of Yoda spending his time in the decadence of war. Which is why the Jedi shouldn't have fought in the war. They can defend and negotiate, but the war should have been fought by the people and not the Jedi and clones.

There has not been a full scale war in a thousand years which ties into not have an army to fight in said war, leaving only the Jedi to defend the Republic.

Because it expands on the material that Lucas wrote, but never got around to dealing with in the films. Lucas had a scene where Yoda states that there was more to learn about the Force. He cut the scene, but it was later expanded upon by TCW and forms its basis in both the screenplay and the novelization for ROTS. TCW in general was Lucas's own brainchild as it would touch upon the things that he couldn't do. Not to mention that even without that, it is obvious within the film that the Jedi were sorely lacking if they didn't know how to talk to the dead. Much less become a ghost. While Palpatine says to Anakin that the Sith kept learning everything about the Force, which lead to the knowledge of life and death.

No. My point was that that type of operation is the kind that the Jedi could have and should have taken during the war. Smaller operations that didn't require them to be fighting with clones, much less leading them. Smaller operations where a team of Jedi can infiltrate places like the control ship, or the Death Star and do damage. In the case of what happened on Geonosis, the Jedi team did the right thing even though it didn't work. But in this case it was based on the Sith planning in advance to make sure that the Jedi would fail and thus rely on the Clone Army.

That doesn't mean such operations are doomed to failure.

Palpatine is far stronger than any Jedi, even Yoda and Mace. The ones that we see killed were among the best that the Jedi Order had and they were punked out. Lucas has long stated that Palpatine was stronger than all the Jedi, save for Yoda, though Yoda could never beat him in battle. He amended that to include Mace. ROTS states that the Jedi couldn't beat him because of his power.

Why it is my responsibility to offer up suggestions?

Uh, it is relevant. The Jedi never chose a side, they simply did as instructed. The only side they were on was the Republic since they served it. When it came to local matters like this, they could not get involved. But they could protect someone like Padme so that she could handle the negotiations. This is why Mace said that they can protect her, but no more than that if it becomes a fight. Which it did. This is why the Jedi Council do not punish Obi-wan for what he and Qui-gon did, much less the Senate reprimanded the Jedi for following their mandate. Much like in AOTC when Obi-wan and Anakin were assigned as security detail, even though Anakin said that investigation was implied in their mandate. With Obi-wan saying that they will not exceed their authority until told otherwise. Which meant that they could not start an investigation, but they could capture the assassin if it was possible. Once the Council and the Chancellor gave the okay, then Obi-wan begins his investigation.

BTW, Maul was representing the Sith's own interest at Naboo. So it still balances out.

They wouldn't torture him. That isn't in their nature unlike the Sith. But they can question him and use methods that fall in line with the Jedi Code.

The Senate would ask, but that doesn't mean that they have to hand him over. They can choose to as they did with Ahsoka. But when she was held, she was questioned both in her cell and during the trial. The Jedi and the Senate would do likewise.

 

And how "Moral" would it be for the Jedi to refuse to fight, refuse orders from the senate, to break their oath to protect the republic? Wouldn't the public opinion turn even faster on the Jedi if they just stand by? Palpatine would have a field day painting the Jedi as traitors, oath breakers and people that will not fight to defend the republic.
I and only one Kenobi have brought this up several times already.
Also, the choice to use the clones was NOT made by the Jedi and the clones would have fought regardless so why are you blaming the Jedi?

As I said in another post, Anakin committed mass murder with the Tuskens and you dismiss that as a "mistake" and yet you condemn the Jedi for honoring their oaths and trying to protect the republic.

I am somewhat reminded by the prime directive in Star Trek and how "moral" that is supposed to be.
Yet that directive would have people stand idly by while billions die in planetary disasters.
The argument to not interfere is based, not on facts, but on dogma. The reasoning goes that if you save a people or a whole planet, then something bad "might" result from that. But taken to it's logical conclusion, no doctor would save any patient suffering from diseases or natural accidents because these patients "might" do something bad in the future. The idea of the prime directive has some good in it but it's application is sometimes overly dogmatic and the people in Star Trek sometimes invoke it like "God's command."

Wait, wait, so 1000 years ago, the Jedi FOUGHT the Sith in a WAR? They did what they did in AotC, they fought alongside soldiers against the forces of the Sith? I am understanding you correctly?
This war ended with the destruction of the Sith empire, the death of the Sith (or so people thought) and the galaxy was free from tyranny.
So the Jedi changed and the result of this was an end to an evil empire and this was bad because??
So for the Jedi to fight alongside troops was not a new thing, they had done that 1000 years ago and to most people it worked well. So what reason would the Jedi have to NOT fight in this war?
The Sith are behind the TF, the seps and are planning to attack the republic with overwhelming numbers. The Jedi are sworn to protect said republic but they should try to fight this attack because?

"Defend the republic" but according to you this would not include any actual fighting because fighting is wrong somehow.
And if the Jedi have been the only defense for the republic for several centuries, how well would the common folk accept the Jedi refusing that job?

But even these "smaller operations" would include that nasty "fighting" which you have argued is something the Jedi must not do. They negotiate. So what the Jedi "should" have done is to talk to the people in the TF ship or the DS and try and convince them to see the error of their ways. Not really going to work.
On Geonosis the "right" thing for the Jeid would have been have more Jedi along Mace. That way they could have put a blade to Dooku's throat and call for his surrender. If he does not, he dies.
And with Dooku dead, the seps would fall apart, war over.

AotC showed otherwise. The Jedi don't have the man power to fight massive amounts of droids.

You contradict yourself here, first you say that Palpatine is far stronger than all Jedi, including Yoda and then you say that Palpatine isn't stronger than Yoda. RotS showed Mace beating Palpatine and Yoda fought him quite well and while he lost it was not a crushing defeat. Mace and Yoda together would beat Palpatine, at least as far as the movies goes.
Besides, power isn't everything. Obi-Wan beat Maul and he wasn't yet a Jedi Knight.

Because you condemn the Jedi for what they did. Again, I and only one Kenobi have repeatedly argued that the Jedi was faced with a variety of bad options and they choose the least bad alternative based on what they knew at the time. You however keep arguing that by not fighting the Jedi would "magically" solve everything and the Sith would be defeated with ease.

It would be if someone condemns Luke blowing up the DS as evil and argues that he should have found a "different" solution. Refusing to consider the situation and just argues black and white morality.

Your argument is somewhat dogmatic, the Jedi should not have fought just because you say so. You say that alternatives exists that would somehow be better but there is no actual evidence for them.

Here is what I mean, You offer up a "magic" alternative. They could just "change" and "adapt" and that would "magically" solve everything. This would be like saying "The Jedi should go to Tim the Enchanter and he would cast a spell that defeats the Sith. Happy Ending."

We have been saying that the Jedi are in a no-win situation at the end of AotC. No easy alternative exist, they have no obvious good choice, only various bad ones.

This is nonsense, the Jedi HAVE chosen a side. They fight alongside Padme and against the forces of the TF. They know what Padme plans to do, draw away the TF army, attack the palace, send fighters to destroy the TF ship and then force Nute Gunray to submit. The Jedi knows that Padme is armed and she wants to deprive Nute of all his forces so he will submit. The Jedi probably figured that Padme wouldn't kill Nute directly but suppose Nute refused to submit and Padme killed him.

Also, the Jedi are on the side of the republic. The TF have killed republic citizens, tried to kill ambassadors from the senate and launched a military invasion of a republic world. This is a declaration of war against the republic. So since the Jedi are on the side of the republic, they are AGAINST the TF since the TF is attacking the republic.

But one of the reasons why Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan went back to Naboo WAS to draw out Maul. Had maul not shown up on Tatooine, would the Jedi even have gone with Padme?
So the Jedi's plan was to help Padme and draw out Maul and then deal with him and leave Padme to do her thing.

[/QUOTE]

Interesting, did the jedi plan to capture Maul and then question him? If so why didn't more Jedi go to Naboo? Capturing a deadly enemy is harder than simply killing him.
Did the Jedi try to question Nute? The Jedi knew that he was in league with the Sith. Yet the Jedi seemingly did nothing about Nute.

And suppose the Jedi had killed Dooku at Geonosis, what would Palpatine do then? He has no Sith apprentice and the seps are leaderless and the war would be over. He would have to start over.

Bye for now.
Mr "Insert-Name-Here."

 

Anakin was a padawan. Dooku had been a Jedi Master for decades and was now a Sith Lord. Anakin stood absolutely no chance by himself. To expect him to have defeated Dooku alone is delusional. Regardless, you are wrong about the assumption that the Jedi would have "lost either way." They came quite close to capturing Dooku.

 

It isn't about morality. It is about the Jedi becoming corrupt because they followed orders and did not raise objections. Because they willingly became soldiers and thus made matters worse for having done so. As to public opinion, more people would have been sympathetic to the Jedi if they had not gotten involved and thus wouldn't have believed that they were trying to take over.

The Jedi are still to blame because they lead the army. They still choose to actually use them and not let the Republic stand on its own.

I never said that I didn't condemn Anakin.

That is why it is a case by case basis for following and not following it. But here, this is a bit different. This is a case of the Jedi should not fight, or at least, fight in a different way. Doing so would have dire consequences which it did.

Because the Sith were fighting a different war, while the Jedi fought the same war and lost. The Sith used the Jedi and the Republic to gain power through legal means, rather than just stealing it as before. The Sith created a climate of fear and greed, blurring the lines of good and evil and this causes the Force to go out of balance. The Jedi needed to change after the last war, so that they could be better adept at dealing with the Sith this time. But they didn't. They believed that the only sensible solution was to fight the same way as before and it was the wrong decision.

Once upon a time, the Republic didn't need the Jedi to fight for them. The Republic had a massive military force and could defend itself on it's own. The Jedi had helped them, but they didn't fight the war for them. Now, the Jedi were fighting the war for the Republic and this is not a good thing.

A Jedi can fight, but what they're fighting is what is at stake. A Jedi fights as a last resort and rely on negotiation. A situation like those scenarios relies more on the Jedi making the most by doing so little.

But they couldn't. There were too many Jedi on too many missions, scattered across the galaxy. There was not enough time for all of them to contacted and directed to Geonosis. The Jedi only had 212 trained Jedi on hand for such an emergency. One Jedi is worth one hundred warriors. That is why the plan was timed as it was, when the Jedi were at there most vulnerable and when the Senate would act out of fear.

Only because the Sith made sure that the Droid Army couldn't have been shut down. Had they not learned from Naboo, the battle would have ended much quicker.

If that was the case, then there wouldn't have been need for a Chosen One.

Maul isn't more powerful than Palpatine and Palpatine is more mindful of the here and now.

Had the Jedi changed before the war, the Sith would have been discovered and dealt with long before any thing could happen. If the Jedi had taken different steps in the present, they could at least mitigate the damage and foil Palpatine's plans by not doing what he wants them to do.

Again, no side is chosen. They are just protecting Padme. Nothing more. The Naboo and the Gungans do all the fighting. The Jedi just makes sure that she survives. The Council knows that she will most likely fight, but that doesn't change that they are to protect her from harm if she goes into battle. If she stayed in the Gungan's sacred place, then the Jedi would not go to the palace. They would stay there until the battle was over.

This isn't a war against the Republic, but a protest by the Federation against the Senate. The blockade was to prevent anyone from bringing supplies to Naboo and to prevent anyone from leaving. Had Padme signed the treaty, then their occupation would be legitimate and Naboo would probably no longer be part of the Republic. The invasion was to force the treaty to be signed. No one was killed until the Jedi got involved, which they weren't supposed to do as that exceeded their mandate and Valorum knew it.

The Jedi's job was to negotiate a settlement. They were attacked and forced to go to Naboo to find the Queen, who was then going to go to the Senate and plead her case. The Jedi's mandate was to escort her there in one peace. That's not taking a side, that's just protection. Taking a side would be the Jedi making their way into the palace to capture or kill Nute Gunray, regardless of what Padme and Bibble's plans were. The Council later tell Qui-gon that he and Obi-wan are to escort her back to Naboo and to protect her, if a fight breaks out. But they are to do nothing more than that. This is why Qui-gon does nothing except block blasts intended to kill Padme and disable any droid that would kill her. Had Maul not been there, the Jedi's job would be complete after shutting the door to the throne room.

It is unclear if they would have been sent back or not, if Maul hadn't been sent to Tatooine, but everything else remained the same.

1. The Council didn't think this was a Sith.

2. The Council most likely couldn't send more Jedi since it would look like the Jedi were responding with an army to deal with the situation on Naboo.

DOOKU: "The viceroy of the Trade Federation... was once in league with this Darth Sidious... but he was betrayed ten years ago by the dark lord. He came to me for help. He told me everything."

However, we now know that Dooku was already in league with the Sith. If not already promoted to the rank of Apprentice, when Nute had allegedly told Dooku this. Nute didn't know yet which is why he talked to a Jedi Knight, thinking that his case would be brought up to the Council. And Dooku probably lied about anything Nute had to say.

He has General Grievous and it wouldn't be hard to find someone else to help lead. Plenty of fish as shown with the Nightsisters and Nightbrothers.

If Anakin had trained hard like he does later on, then he would take Dooku regardless of being a Padawan.

 

Nothing in the film implies that. In fact it is implied that even when Anakin is a fully trained Jedi Knight he has to tap into the dark side to defeat Dooku.

 

OBI-WAN: "If you'd spend as much time working on your saber skills as you do on your wit, young Padawan, you would rival Master Yoda as a swordsman."

ANAKIN: "I thought I already did."

OBI-WAN: "Only in your mind, my very young apprentice."

And considering how Yoda was able to fight Dooku to a draw, I'd say that Obi-wan's assessment was spot on.

 

?? It's not about morality, its about the Jedi becoming corrupt?? So, it is about morality then, for what else can you mean by the Jedi becoming corrupt?

They follow orders because that is their position in the Republic. They serve and protect the Republic, they don't make political decisions - which is made clear in the movies. In fact, given what they know, dealing with the Separatist threat makes complete sense for them and their mansate (to serve and protect the Republic).

How would the people have been made sympathetic to the Jedi? The Jedi who were supposed to protect the Republic but...run off and don't bother. While watching their friends and neighbours being cut down/burned out/imprisoned/enslaved by the Separatists they are going to think 'I'm so glad the Jedi haven't got themselves involved in this...it's our place to get our hands dirty and die for the Republic. Its up to the Jedi to keep their hands clean and find a magical way to end this terrible war'?! I just don't see any sense in the idea that the public would be at all sympathetic to those who are sworn to protect the Republic just walking away and refusing to fight.

But...the movies paint a different picture anyway, don't they? I mean, sure, TCW seems to go to some lengths to project the idea that the Jedi were held as being to blame but..... that doesn't actually make sense in the movies. Obi-Wan talks to Anakin after their shenanigans on the Unseen Hand and tells him he can be the 'poster boy' today...... the Jedi are portrayed as being seen as heroes in the war. In fact, that's why Palpatine can't act against them until he can provide some context for that ('treason')

We've been through this. Is this how its going to be, where you just re-hash discussions we've already had as if nothing has been said on the matter? Whether the Jedi fight or not the clones will be used, that is made absolutely clear in the movies. The Jedi are not responsible for the use of the clones.

And then you say 'let the Republic stand on its own'....but the Jedi are of/in the Republic. They are sworn to protect and serve the Republic. What if everybody in the Republic took that stance? Who would fight for the Republic if everybody saw it as being in some way separate from themselves, that they weren't the Republic?

Hang on....you seem to be arguing...no, surely not. You couldn't be...I mean that wouldn't be right would it. You wouldn't argue that....

..oh, but you are...

You are arguing that the Jedi are to blame, essentially, for not being all-seeing and all-knowing. You are blaming the Jedi based upon your knowledge of events as they will proceed (and as you understand they are proceeding from the perspective of an OOU viewer). You are blaming them for not fighting the war against Sidious who is hiding at the heart of the Republic. But...that's kind of the whole point of the movies isn't it? That nobody knows that.

How can you expect the Jedi to make this decision on the basis of what they actually know at the time? You are judging the Jdi not on the basis of what we are to understand they know, but on the basis of what you know (in hindsight and from the privileged pov of an OOU viewer). Maybe...you know, if the Force had bothered to give some of them a few visions of what was to come they might have been able to do that. Unfortunately the magic wasn't 'on their side' was it? It's almost as if the magic was on the Sith's side isn't it ("The Force is with us")?

No wonder we seem to be talking across each other...because no matter how many times I (and Samuel Vimes ) have spoken of addressing that the choices the Jedi make are surely to be seen in the context of what they know....you are arguing about what they magically kind of, sort of, perhaps ought to know...if only the magic was on their side...

Hmmm...so you've jumped from one scenario that we don't have information of in the movies ( a great war in which the Jedi fought alongside the Republic armies) to an even older notional time (which we don't have any context for in the movies) where the Jedi never did any of that 'nasty fighting' stuff. There may have been a time when the Jedi never carried lightsabres at all, but just preached love and happiness to all and gave out crackers with words of wisdom contained within them....maybe. None of that, or any of the scenarios you keep introducing are ever explicated or hinted at in the movies.... So, how can the movies possibly be telling us those stories?

Indeed. So your idea that the Jedi are to blame is actually a misdirection, because it was all planned out to make attacks upon them when they are at their weakest. If they can't capture Dooku on Geonosis...when will they capture him? After the huge droid army has been dispersed across the galaxy and is attacking (and killing) Republic citizens? Is Dooku going to just invite the Jedi in and not have the protection of a part of that huge droid army at some later date? Why? How? Magic, presumably....

Of course they were going to alter that, and the fact that they have means that the Jedi, thus, have to fight against the droid army....which means there aren't enough of them to defend the Republic. So, they went to Geonosis with a plan...with exactly the plan you had suggested (disabling the droid army) and ...failed. So, the path you suggested the Jedi ought to take has failed...and they are left with facing a huge droid army which...the movies show, there aren't enough Jedi to defeat.

Hahahahaha. Palpatine must be more powerful otherwise there would be no need for a 'Chosen One'. They must have been weaker because otherwise your take on it would be on shaky ground..... Yet...Lucas states in the commentary that we see Mace defeating Sidious in their duel, that Lucas added the idea of Palpatine feigning weakness at the end of the scene as a reaction to Anakin turning up, to get him to act. Perhaps there never was a need for a chosen one, perhaps putting their faith in Anakin was where the Jedi went wrong...perhaps it was Qui-Gon's dogma that was the error...

In what way 'changed' before the war? Why? And....how would Palpatine have been discovered and dealt with? What is this 'change' that would lead to that result? You are (as usual) just throwing vague concepts (they should 'change'...somehow...and magically all would be well) rather than offering any kind of substance.

This really isn't a difficult concept. The Jedi are on one side against the other. They have chosen a side and act on behalf of that side. Do the Jedi support the invasion of Naboo, do you suggest?

Exceopt...it isn't just a blockade any more....the TF have invaded a Republic planet. Why are you talking of a blockade?

Which brings into question the level of writing here. If an entity (the TF) can blockade a planet in order to force the government there to sign a treaty (whatever that treaty might be...we are never told), what kind of law allows that?

Ahhh, finally you acknowledge the invasion but....you appear to be, somehow, blaming the Jedi for this also; "No one was killed until the Jedi got involved..." as if....as if the Jedi caused the invasion. Again, this idea that the Jedi are not supposed to be there raises questions about the writing. Surely all that the TF would need to do would be to report this course of action to the Senate (two Jedi have been sent, against the wishes of the Republic, to 'negotiate'..) and Valorum is in the poopie.

But, anyway, the Jedi - after the TF have tried to assassinate them, see that the TF are now invading the planet and go down to the planet. They go to escort the Queen off-planet in order that she can report the illegal invasion by the TF of a Republic planet. The Jedi, in order to get her off-planet, cut down enemy combatants. They are clearly on one side against the other. That is so very, very straightforward and obvious I really don't understand why you are trying to argue against it.

...but that doesn't address the idea that the Jedi would, surely, have questions they would want to ask Nute Gunray. There appears to have been no direct questioning of Gunray by the Jedi. Why?

 

It isn't about morality but the Jedi are becoming corrupt? Contradict yourself much?
Also you wrote this earlier;

So it is about morailty when it suits your argument and when it doesn't, it is not about morailty.
You contradcit yourself at almost every turn.

Also, as you have said, 1000 years ago the Jedi followed orders and fought in a war alongside soldiers aginst the enemies of the republic. Did public opinion turn against the Jedi then?
No.
Pulbic opinion WOULD turn against the Jedi if they refused orders and refused to defend the republic they are sworn to protect. They would be labeled oath-breakers and traitors.

They were given an order to use the army and their mandate says they should protect the republic.
And yet you argue they should just ignore that and let the republic fall to it's enemies?

You kind of did when you trivialized mass murder and dismissed it as just a "misstake".

In other words it is not based on facts or looking at the situation, it is dogma. The Jedi must never, ever fight because that would be wrong. Rigid, unflexible and dogmatic

Again you keep making up a "magic" solution, if the Jedi just "changed" then everything would be solved. You are also condeming the Jedi for not being aware of everything and know that Palpatine is a Sith and all the rest. The whole point of the PT was to show that the Sith were able to get the better of the Jedi because they hid at the heart of the republic and the Jedi did not see them until it was too late.
And again, based on what the Jedi knew at the time, fighting was the least bad alternative.

Who is to blame for the Republic disbanding it's armies? Not the Jedi as they don't make those choices. The Jedi in the PT are the ONLY defense the republic has.
Was it stupid of the senate to dismband all it's armies? Yes. Shoule they have rebuilt the republci army sooner? Given the events of TPM, then yes.
But the Jedi are not to blame here as they are not involved in this.

And in AotC negotations had clearly failed and the seps were going to attack so war was inevitable.
So fighting was the least bad alternative the Jedi had.

Wrong they most certainly could. Instaed of sending Mace ALONE to deal with Dooku and co.
Have 3-4 other master with him and have 6-7 Jedi guard the corridor.
IF the droids show, the Jedi can hold them off long enough for Mace to put a blade at Dooku's throat and call for his surrender. If he refuses he dies. War won.

The Jedi had two missions, rescue Obi-Wan, Anakin and Padme. 10-20 Jedi would be able to do that.
The other mission, take out Dooku. So don't send ONE Jedi to do that, that is stupid and it is equally stupid to spread the Jedi out and it is moronic to jump down into an arena and engage a foe with greater numbers. Mace and 10-15 other Jedi could have dealt with Dooku and he would have either given up or died. Either way the seps are now leaderless.

Or if the Jedi had not been holding their Idiot Balls and sent more Jedi along with Mace.

Congratulations you have just showed one of the reasons why the chosen one thing was a dumb idea.

Was Maul more powerful than padawan Obi-Wan?
If yes then powerisin't everything.

Again with the "magic" solutions, the Jedi should just "adapt" and then all will be well.

They are so clearly involved and I frankly can't understand why you refuse to admit this.
They are helping Padme and are opposing the TF. They ahve chosen a side, end of story.

Really? Seriously?
So in the days of the cold war, if the Soviet Union had blockaded Hawai and then sent an armed invasion force that conquered the whole state. That would not be a war against the US?
You must a very strange definition of war when armed invasion of a whole planet isn't war.

The blockade was the protest but the invasion was always part of the plan. Even if the Jedi had not shown up, the invasion would still happen and Naboo people would get killed.

And what did Qui-Gon do ont he TF ship? He tried to get to Nute Gunray. he was stopped but that was clearly his plan. So how are they not taking sides again?

Since the jedi main objective is to capture Maul then it is very likely they would not ahve gone back if he hadn't shown up. Also Anakin would not have been trained and so on.

1: The council was not sure if it was a sith or not. But they said they would use ALL their resources to find out more. Too bad that didn't include sending more Jedi to the one place where they though he would be.

2. Really? 5-10 jedi is an army? The Jedi have already involved themselves and sent two Jedi without senate approval. Nothing stopped them from sending 5-6 more and who would even notice?
Second you have been going on and on that the Jedi should totally disregard the senate and their orders and do what they want. But here the Jedi should not lift a finger without Senate ok.
More contradictions.

As far as the films go, no mention si ever made that the Jedi wanted to question Nute. Since he was arrested at the end of TPM, that would not have been hard. But as per usual the Jedi are stupid and don't bother.

And even more contradictions.
You said earlier;

So you argued that the Jedi could have won by taking out Dooku and now you turn around and say that it would not matter.

[/QUOTE]

And even more "magic" solutions at the end.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

It's called sarcasm. Like "If I had a nickel for everytime you said that I'd be a millionaire." Obi-Wan was implying that Anakin spends too much time fooling around. He didn't literally mean Anakin should be better than Yoda.

darth-sinister I love you man, but you say so many things that make no sense to me. It's always interesting to hear your perspective even if it drives me borderline insane. As the great GL once said:

"Jedi"
--George Lucas, TPM DVD Commentary

 

The morality isn't, "I'm better than you." Rather it is about the Jedi maintaining the principles that they were founded on by not doing what they did.

Because the people don't like the Republic and what it has become. They agree in principle with the Separatists, but not to the point of going to war over it. And in the view of the people who were against the Republic going to war with those who were protesting against the corruption, the Jedi were betraying themselves and everything that they stood for.

There were people who were in favor of the war and people who weren't. The ones in favor of the war were the ones who supported Palpatine's regime. The ones who spoke out against it were the ones who either joined the Alliance later on, or remained neutral during the Galactic Civil War. That is part of the reason why there were heroes on both sides. The Confederacy was viewed by many, both those who were Separatists and those who weren't, but were vocal, saw the Republic for what it was. And what the Jedi had become.

But they still lead them into battle willingly. Thus they used them.

That's the point. They had relied on the Jedi far too much and couldn't even decide on their own to defend themselves. If no one will fight for their own freedom and for their own defense, then they're not worth saving. That's why Palpatine was given control, because they were too indecisive.

The Jedi's arrogance and inability to grow and adapt following the last war is why they fell and failed. It is why when the dark side starts to grow stronger, their powers diminish including seeing the future. This is why Yoda says that they should have known about the Clone Army, but didn't.

YODA: "Blind we are if creation of this Clone Army... we could not see."

MACE: "I think it is time we informed the Senate... that our ability to use the Force has diminished."

YODA: "Only the Dark Lord of the Sith knows of our weakness. If informed the Senate is... multiply our adversaries will."

Had Yoda changed the Jedi Order, or his predecessor, the Jedi would have been ready to face the Sith. Had they continued to learn about the Force, they would be equally as strong as the Sith and better equipped to deal with them.

I didn't jump from anything. I had said that the Jedi had once worked with the Republic, but I have also said in the Jedi had fought in the last war with the Sith. The Jedi used the Force and their weapons appropriately, but never took it too far afield. Not until that last war when they did. As to the films, as I've said, Mace states that they are not soldiers and that the Republic did have a military force ones, but not anymore. The films give you what you need.

No, the idea is to lure Dooku into a trap and deal with him then. Not going hunting for him blindly like a rat in a maze. Draw him out into the open and without the Senate knowing, thus leaving him to his own devices.

Right, because they underestimated the Confederacy and Dooku. They rushed to Geonosis and in their haste, got their asses handed to them. But that doesn't mean that said plan was not sound, nor that it couldn't work.

The fight was never over. That's the point you're not getting. Palpatine had two Lightsabers and he was still stronger than Mace. Enough so that had Anakin not shown up, he could still turn it around and claim victory.

First, by going back to what they were before the last war. Second, by continuing to study the Force and learn all there is to know and thus grow stronger.

No, they don't support the invasion. Their job is simple; protect the Queen from harm even if she goes into battle willingly. That's not taking a side.

Because that is what it started out as. A blockade and though there are no longer massive ships, there is one armed ship that would stop anyone from coming and going. The only reason they were allowed to land was due to Palpatine informing them that she was coming.

A government that is largely run by corporations and special interest groups. It's meant to be a commentary on how lobbyists and special interests groups in the real world get their way on political matters, is leading to the decay of Congress. As well as how the wealthy maintain their power and wealth, by not being taxed equally and slipping through the cracks when it comes to corrupt business practices. Remember, Palpatine told Nute that he will make the invasion legal.

NUTE: "My lord, is that legal?"

SIDOUS: "I will make it legal."

Note that we have a corporation having political representation in the Senate. Take a look at the US Congress. Does Microsoft, Apple, BP Oil, Google and Ford have a seat in either the Senate or the House Of Representatives? No. There have been politicians who were involved with corporations as a member of a board of directors, but usually they resign before running for office. Imagine the kind of corruption where a political body allows such a thing to happen. The furor from the masses. That's what happened to the Republic. The Senate allowed this and it got to the point where a company wanted to maintain its control, while at the same time tried to cover it up by demanding a committee to be formed just to investigate the claims.

PALPATINE: "There is no civility, only politics. The Republic is not what it once was. The Senate is full of greedy, squabbling delegates. There is no interest in the common good. I must be frank, Your Majesty, there is little chance the Senate will act on the invasion."

PALPATINE: "Enter the bureaucrats, the true rulers of the Republic, and on the payroll of the Trade Federation, I might add. This is where Chancellor Valorum's strength will disappear."

What I meant was that when they arrived, Palpatine ordered them terminated in order to cover up what was going to go down.

Their job was simple. Take her to Coruscant. That doesn't mean that they've picked a side and are interceding.

Because they trusted Dooku and his judgment, if he had told them half truths and lies.

Times were different and the Republic was now a corrupt institution that many saw as being in the wrong, as were the Jedi. Back then, there was hardly a Republic left and the people supported the Jedi and the remnants of the Republic.

The Republic was already *****. It was just a matter of time. The Jedi just couldn't see it.

With the Tusken Raiders. Not with the Jedi Purge and the elimination of the Confederacy leadership. On Tatooine, Anakin could still bounce back and move past what he did. He hadn't gone completely over to the dark side. He did when he willingly chose to serve Palpatine.

What part of case by case don't you understand? A Jedi can fight, but not every battle should be their own. And if they spend too much time in battle, they open themselves up to the dark side.

They enabled the Republic by going along with it and pulling their ass out of the fire once too often.

And turns out it was the very thing that destroyed everything. They were just too arrogant to admit that.

Problem is that Dooku knew they were coming and knew what techniques they were going to use against them. Including that one Jedi would come to face him. Hence having two Super Battle Droids. If he was aware that the standard would be to send more than one, he would have doubled the number of droids laying in wait.

The Jedi jumped into the arena to defend the Jedi who were on the arena floor. They saw the large number of droids and realized that a dozen wouldn't be sufficient. It wasn't with the ones who were in there. Even with better strategy, the Jedi would be overwhelmed between the droids and the Geonosians.

Not really. It shows how out of touch the Jedi were that they had lost their ability to fight the Sith and needed someone else to fix it for them.

Maul lost on Naboo because he was arrogant. The next time they fought, Obi-wan couldn't beat him and he was already a veteran Jedi Knight. When Maul and Savage fought Sidious, the Dark Lord wiped the floor with the both of them. Savage even admitted he wasn't strong enough.

They ultimately did adapt which is where Luke comes in. He is the result of that adaptation.

Not really. Theed fell without one shot fired. The people only died when they fought back.

Qui-gon was there to force a settlement. Had he been able to, it would have never gone further than it did.

The Council was going to send Jedi to the last known place the Sith were and start investigating from there, as well as go to the Sith world of Moraband.

Apparently someone. That's why Mace said to not get involved. As to the army, considering that one Jedi is worth one hundred warriors, then yes, that's an army.

The mandate was that the Jedi couldn't get involved in a matter that originated in the Senate. They agreed to help Valorum since he was going against the Senate, but it was only to help negotiate a settlement. If they went to war to free the planet, that would get them in trouble. Instead, they could only protect the Queen while she and the Gungans fought the war.

Or they did and sent Master Dooku, who was already of the dark side.

To win a battle. But not to stop Palpatine.

Anakin has more Midichlorians than Yoda which means that his connection to the Force is greater than Yoda's. Enough so that he could eclipse him. This is why he said that and why Palpatine said that he would be more powerful than either him or Yoda.

SIDIOUS: "You will not stop me. Darth Vader will become more powerful that either of us."

 

So....then it is about morality. You seem to be arguing against a point about morality that was never made. So its "about" some notional 'principles' that the Jedi were, allegedly, founded upon that matters.... though this is never addressed in the movies - so how can it be "about" that? All that this is is the insertion into the story of a dogmatic, unworkable, non-situational and unworldly ethical standard to which the Jedi must operate....a standard that is never once explicated in the movies.

Really? When are we shown these people who don't like the Republic and what it has become? How could there be heroes on both sides if 'the people' dislike the Republic? Surely they would throw their lot in with the separatists? This is, again, an insertion of a concept that we are not shown in the movies.

And..'protesting' is a very odd euphemism for what the Separatists are doing that brings about the war. They have, all through the 'negotiations' been building up a massive army and are planning to invade the Republic and hold it to ransom by means of what they consider to be an overwhelming military advantage. So, what actually happens is that Republic worlds come under attack by this massive Separatist military force and...'the people' are going to be happy that the Jedi don't protect them fro this 'protest'? Nonsense.

Oh...but no, all the people didn't dislike the Republic and what it had become...but you still hold to the idea that the Republic start the war, despite what you know about the events - because you claim that it is about being for or against the war, which you tell us in the last response was an attack on those 'protesting' against the Republic. So, your version of this story requires that we take into account conceptions that are not elucidated in the movies and also to hold to a narrative that ignores our knowledge of events.

They fight alongside them, they would have been "used" by the Republic anyway. As I say, we've been through this and your insistence on blaming the Jedi for the "use" of the clones is....clutching at straws. It holds no water. This really does no credit to your argument.

But...isn't it actually a matter that they need an army like...now? It doesn't follow that they won't fight but merely, as you say, they are not in a position to fight. They're not in a position to fight because those in political power ahve, as you say, relied upon the Jedi. Foolish? Certainly it is fair to argue that...but you go further. Because ...it is the Jedi that are at fault here. They are at fault because...the Republic isn't worth saving..because they don't have an army and have relied upon the Jedi* for too long. So all 'the people' that you mentioned earlier can...go to hell ..because their leaders were inept in not ensuring the security of the Republic? Now those 'people' are an irrelevance..and they'll even thank the Jedi (*the one group of people the Republic rely upon to defend them) for not doing that now....?!

Is that a moral decision for the Jedi to make? Doesn't the fact that the Republic has relied upon them show what their duty and role is? But...at least here you've moved away from the narrative of the Republic attacking the 'protesters' and have accepted that it is a matter of defence.

And...straight back to the magical conceptions of what the Jedi 'ought' to have done, what they 'ought' to have known. Not only are they now guilty of going against some notional founding principles, but it is their "arrogance" that is the cause....although how this is so is rather less clear to see. It just is, right?

So....why would the Jedi know that they would need to change? To fight the Sith in a different way? For one, they believe the Sith defeated and gone. So....why would they be planning for a new Sith campaign? Also...how are they to know that the Sith (who they aren't expecting even on an 'old-fashioned' basis) are going to alter their tactic and what those tactics will be? The Jedi are "arrogant" for not being all-knowing and all-seeing, essentially. They are "arrogant" and to blame on the basis of some magical property they ought to have about them...and on the basis of some notional founding principles that are never shown in the movies.

But, anyway, this narrative changes doesn't it? Because then what the Jedi have to do is have faith...in the Force...that it can work itself out...and that faith is Anakin, for he is the most holy, the most 'Chosen One'. And...the Jedi put their faith in this 'Chosen One' (which is what you argue they should) and....well, I don't need to say what occurs do I?

And none of this is in any way told through the movies, you are inserting ideas that the movies don't ever tell the viewer, so how could the movies possibly be said to be telling that story? And yes Mace says they are keepers of the peace and not soldiers...after saying that there aren't enough Jedi to defend the Republic if it comes to war. As I said if you just pretend he never said that first line...and incorporate the ideas that you have which are never addressed in the movies then...you might have a story that matches up with what you see. But you even accept that the Republic have relied upon the Jedi in place of an army - and that that makes the Republic not worth saving. That the Jedi shouldn't fight for the Republic for that reason...not that they weren't expected to, that it wasn't their role in the galaxy...but rather that the Jedi should have refused that role; on the basis of some notional ethical and moral 'highground' that is never shown anywhere in the movies as having any reality.

Yes...because Dooku is a fool and would be easily lead into a trap. Not only that but...what if he is not willing to talk? Are the Jedi to torture him? And...they don't have to go hunting for him because he is on Geonosis...they know where he is and can stop the war from even starting if they capture him then. What you suggest is to allow the Separatists to attack the Republic, thus allowing the war to start...and then 'draw him into a trap'. Is that the moral choice? is that the best of the bad options? Let the Republic be attacked, though if we capture Dooku now we can end this war before it even begins?

But you have, anyway, given the lie to your own suggested course of action...because you have said that even if they capture Dooku that Sidious will simply put another leader in place...apparently they are two-a-penny in the galaxy.

I'm not arguing that the plan was not sound. You are. If you mean the plan to capture Dooku. Above you've just argued for an alternative course of action...of not going to Geonosis but drwing out Dooku into some magical trap which will instantly fool Dooku and make him spill the beans to the Jedi (presumably) - in opposition of what the Jedi did...which you now claim here was essentially a sound plan.

The part of the plan that wasn't sound was the part that you claimed is the way the Jedi ought to operate....by simply disabling the enemies weapons. They tried that and it didn't work. So...here you seem to be arguing against your own position...because you have claimed that the Jedi were wrong to go to Geonosis, now you claim it was a perfectly feasible and realistic plane...but..hang on, then you have argue that even if they capture Dooku then Palpatine will simply replace him.

You know...this is starting to look more and more like an un-winnable scenario.

So...what is it that you think the Jedi ought to have done? Should they have gone to Geonosis or shouldn't they? Will capturing Dooku make a difference or won't it?

But, of course, the real answer is...they ought to have known about all of this beforehand but, because they were (in some way) arrogant for not being all-seeing and all-knowing then they are destined to fail...unless they put faith in the Force and that it will sort itself out....which they do but...hmmmm...this is a mess isn't it?

He has two lightsabres....uh...

You mean...the way that has been inserted into the movies that we are never shown? To some notional time when the Jedi gave out cookies and spoke only wise words and never di that nasty fighting? And...as for learning more of the Force...and thus becoming more powerful? What...like lightening? Waht? See this is where...if Lucas really intended this idea of learning new powers is a concept that is supposed to be important, the whole point of ROTJ and the OT gets obliterated.It's not about power per sé. Why is it that the darkside is not stronger? A clue...it has nothing to do with power. It is that the Jedi way is based upon the real trinity - selflessness, understanding and compassion, which are truly all of one another. It is not about gaining more power.

They don't support the invasion by the TF of the Naboo...they go to protect the Queen, against the forces of the TF....and yet they haven't taken a side?

That just doesn't fit....Dooku says he was approached by Nute Gunray, so it is not indicative of the Jedi having questioned the TF personnel. And if what Dooku had learned as part of a Jedi interrogation....why would Obi-Wan not have asked him why he didn't pass that information on to the Jedi at the time?

 

You kind of overlook the vote that was going on at the start of AotC. To create an army for the republic. Some in the senate viewed the seps as a threat and the seps were already causing trouble, trouble that the Jedi had difficulty dealing with because they were too few.

So the senate, at least some of them, realized that the Jedi by themselves could not protect them.

But the Sith were all dead, at least that is what the Jedi tought. So why would they prepare for a fight against an enemy they know to be dead?

What the Jedi should have done is to not be so bloody stupid as they were shown to be in the PT.
Once they heard about Maul and the senate not willing to deal with the TF. Then they should have acted and acted in force. After that they should have give Nute the 3rd degree until he spilled the beans. They should have kept a close eye on the senate after TPM and began to to reach out to senators they could trust. they should have kept a closer eye on Dooku, they should not have let a rookie Obi-Wan train Anakin. Etc.

But they know where Dooku is, on Geonosis. And if they can take him out before the seps attack then this will save millions of lives. But they Jedi should not care about that, let people die.

In short, they were holding their Idiot Balls.

And even more making stuff up to suit your argument. Mace beat Palpatine, even Lucas said this.
Two ligthsabers? Where in the film is that shown or did you make that up too?
You don't known if Palpatine could have turned things around if Anakin had not shown or if Anakin had shown but not interfered. You make stuff up to suit your argument.

It is so blindly obvious taking a side that your refusal is just head scratching.

Padme was allowed to land? Where in the film is THAT explained???
If the TF knew she was coming then it would have been a far better idea to intercept her ship in space and NOT allow her to land. Congratulations, you make the characters even more stupid.

So the Jedi are not to blame for the invasion? You seemed to be arguing that.
And the TF killed the crew on the ship the Jedi came with. This is murder.

This is getting silly. Not taking sides would mean to leave her to her own devices. They clearly did not do that, so they picked a side and they are interceding.

Two things, Dooku said in AotC that Nute came TO HIM. Not that Dooku was questioning him on orders from the JC. That implies that the Jedi didn't bother to ask Nute anything and Nute sought Dooku out on his own accord.
Second, what Dooku told Obi-Wan is highly suspect as Dooku is mixing truth and lies a lot there. Plus RotS showed that Nute was still working for Sidious and he knew it. So Nute never did turn against Sidious.

And what would the people think of the jedi when they are being killed or enslave by the seps?
When their worlds are being bombarded by seps forces? Would they still think highly of the Jedi that could have stopped this but didn't?
Also a point is made that Palpatine got more and more popular through the war. If the people of the republic despised the senate and the Jedi, why would they cheer for Palpatine?

Right, just let billions die or be enslaved, the Jedi don't care.

Also it is one thing to see that the republic has problems. It is quite another to let said republic be enslaved and conquered by a vicious enemy. And if the seps had won the war and conquered the republic. How would that be an improvement? The TF and co were a major source of corruption. And the Jedi think they would be better equipped to rule the galaxy?

A so you admit that mass murdering the Tusken was no big deal and you don't condemn Anakin for that.
So defending a helpless republic against armed invaders. BAD.
Murdering women and children. Not so bad.

Actually you don't understand case by case as you argue from an absolute position that the Jedi must not fight to protect the republic. Doesn't matter that the alternatives would be worse, doesn't matter what the Jedi knew at the time or what the situation were. They fought and doomed themselves. And your position is based mostly on hindsight, you know what will happen and you know that Palpatine is Sidious and all the rest. The Jedi don't.
So you condemn the Jedi, as only one Kenobi said, "for not being all knowing and all seeing."

When?
There had not been a large scale war for 1000 years and back then the republic had an army.
No major wars since then, this is what the films say.
The republic had not needed an army until recently and they were debating creating one to help the Jedi.
Prior to TPM, the Jedi dealt with negotiations and the like.
Your position is not supported by the films.

No, not fighting would have destroyed everything sooner, you just don't want to admit that.
Had they killed Dooku at Geonosis, the war would have been averted and Palpatine would have to start over. The jedi would be the heroes so he would have a hrader time to smear them.
If they refused to fight, he could have smeared them with ease and turned the clones on them.

Oh this is funny, so you basically say that Dooku read the script?
He knew that they were coming to be sure but he knew that only one Jedi would face him?
You do realize that this makes the jedi even BIGGER morons? They are facing one of their own, one they know is familiar with their plans and tactics. And yet they see no reason to change that.
Wow, this is stupid with a capital Fail.

Jumping down into an arena is moronic, no ifs and buts about it. The Jedi have the Force, they could have lifted the Jedi out of there.
With better or at least SOME tactics, the Jedi would have cornered Dooku with several Jedi and made him surrender or die. The droids would not be an issue after that.

Obi-Wan fought an killed one Sith quite well. Yoda fought another Sith until that Sith made a run for it. Mace fought and beat the most powerful Sith Lord and would have killed him if Anakin had not interfered. Mace and Yoda together would have been able to kill Palpatine.
The Jedi were not just all-seeing and all-knowing as you somehow thinks they should be.
They didn't know that Palpatine was a sith. Once they knew, they should have made a batter plan than just barging in there but the Jedi are stupid so that was expected.

But Luke did not do what Obi-Wan and maybe Yoda wanted. He went to Bespin against their advice. There he made a connection to his father and learned the thruth. Had he not, then odds are he would not have tried to save his father. Also Obi-Wan wanted Luke to kill his father and neither he not Yoda seemed to have any hope that Anakin might be redeemed. So Luke changed the Jedi by having an insight they didn't have, by not giving up on his father like they did.

Right, people should not try to fight back, if someone breaks into your house, let them take what they want, don't resist. If an evil dictator send armies against your country, don't fight them.
Just let evil triumph.
I don't think this is the message of Star Wars.
Also how do you know that no shots was fired in Theed? The film did not show every second of the invasion. Also the message said people were dying, perhaps a lie but perhaps not.

You said this;

TPM showed clearly that Qui-Gon was trying to get to Nute.
So by our own reasoning, the Jedi HAVE taken a side.

Moraband, where was that mentioned in TPM? Oh right it wasn't.
The Jedi were going to send people to Tatooine? Why?
Maul would not be there.
The Jedi suspected that Maul will go after Padme and that is why they sent Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan with her,

The film says clearly that the Jedi knows or supects that Maul will be on Naboo. So then they should have sent more Jedi there. They didn't, because as was said before, they are holding massive Idiot Balls.

Apparently only you. You are the one who thinks planetary invasion is not war and that six people is an army and protecting people is not taking sides.
The Jedi are already involved and they want to unravel the truth about the sith and were going to use ALL their resources on this.
Also why is 500 an army but 200 is not? If one Jedi are worth 100 warriors then Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan are an army of 200.
More contradictions.

Again, your main argument is that the Jedi should totally IGNORE the orders from the senate in AotC and tell them to **** ***. Yet here they must be so totally obedient.
This makes no sense.
Also, helping free a planet for an unjust invasion would get them in trouble. But refusing orders and letting the republic be attacked by the seps, that won't?

Wrong, see above.

If they won the battle that would stop the war and delay Palpatine's plans.
A small victory. Not fighting would have been a defeat.

[/QUOTE]

And Anakin was beaten by Obi-Wan and made weaker as a result. And Anakin didn't need any power to kill Palpatine, he just tossed him down a pit.
The SW films make a point of saying, power isn't everything. A weaker opponent can beat a stronger one. Take the DS battle in ANH as an example of that.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

The dogma is the very thing that makes the distinction between Jedi and Sith and why the latter broke off from the former.

They don't agree with the Separatist methods, but they do with their beefs with the corruption. The movies don't go into this because they're focused on the main characters. That's part of the reason why TCW exists.

Many did side with the Separatists, while others didn't fight back when they took over. Nor were they happy that the Jedi and the Clonetroopers got involved with their affairs.

The point is that Palpatine created such a state of moral grayness that everyone was right and wrong in this situation. One side was fighting out of fear, the other out of greed. The very things that help bring the Force out of balance. It shows that the people were not nearly as united and acting more out of self interest than the greater good. The Jedi, on their desire to do the greater good, abandon the very things that they once held dear and thus lose their way.

The Senate is divided about the fighting which is why there was strong opposition to the Military Creation Act at the start of the film. There are those who see what Palpatine and Dooku are doing as risky, foolish and self serving. More, they're not willing to listen to the other. Though they do not know that it is all a sham, they see it as pointless bickering that can be resolved peacefully without the threat of war. Then there are those who don't want to fight at all, because they're clinging to the notion of peaceful protest without violence. Or at least, are disgusted with the notion of fighting that they won't approve of it. Then there are those who want to fight because they believe in security over freedom. Destroy all those who threaten peace and teach them a lesson. And so it goes. This is why Bail says that the Senate won't come to an accord with the knowledge that the Separatists are preparing for war. They don't want an army and some don't even want the Jedi to fight for them.

In truth, the only way to save the Republic is to kill it. Only through what happens do the people start to wake up to the reality of what they allowed to happen and start to fight back against it. I know it sounds harsh, but look at what happens. The Alliance started to gain ground in the Senate before Palpatine disbanded it. People were supporting a return to a less draconian society.

The Jedi Order was founded on the principles of not only defending the people, but on knowledge of the Force, as per Yoda.

YODA: "A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack."

But as time went on, the knowledge part stopped. They stopped pursuing knowledge in favor of just defending the Republic and thus they stopped growing. They became arrogant in thinking that they had gotten all of the Sith and had refused to think that it was possible that one slipped past them. They became arrogant in thinking that there was no need to continue to adapt their training, whether to fight the Sith or not, they kept to what they did during the last conflict. The arrogance is there are Yoda states and even Dex can see that Obi-wan can't differentiate between knowledge and wisdom.

Well, he is a fool who was lead into a trap. And quite easily.

Sometimes there are only choices, not all of them are the best and that pretty.

It is a start.

What was sound was going to Geonosis to disable the army, but not to fight a war. Capturing Dooku makes a difference in that it will lead to Palpatine. They don't have torture him, but they can work on him to get him to slip up.

Knowledge is power. In learning more about the Force, about things like Force ghosts and about the Living and Cosmic Force, are the Jedi able to become stronger. Not so much physically as it is mentally, emotionally and spiritually.

Pretty much.

The Council was probably waiting to interrogate them.

There was more that was cut out, which was that the Council didn't believe Nute and that Dooku had tried to warn them, but it fell on deaf ears. Hell, the Council still refuses to accept what Dooku tells them, seeing it as lies to create mistrust.

And how did that work out?

His first Lightsaber went out the window when Mace kicked him. You can see it fall that way. Too far away to retrieve with the Force. His second was one that he had built a long time ago for dual fights like we see against Maul and Savage. Why do you think that TCW showed him with two? Why did Stover write that Palpatine had two in the novelization? Lucas came up with the idea of two sabers since he re-shot the duel between Palpatine and the Posse, which originally had Palpatine use Anakin's saber, which you can see in a few shots.









Which doesn't match his saber's design.

Palpatine would tell them that she was coming since, you know, he's aware that she's going home. They still need her to sign the treaty. Nor do they think that she can amass an army without the Senate or the Jedi. And since they're not shot down, that tells me they're allowed to land.

Murder, but not an act of war.

And yet, they weren't.

He did, but then he learned that Sidious didn't abandon him as Dooku revealed himself to be Darth Tyranus, the new Apprentice.

Senators cheered, but not everyone did. Not all of the senators as we know and more in the Republic itself.

I didn't say what Anakin did was right. Just that he could and for a time, did do better. The Republic was far more screwed up.

Yoda condems the Jedi for that based on what he says to Mace.

No, not a full scale war. But there were conflicts here and there, ones that were dealt with negotiations more often than not. And from time to time, fighting was required to reach those settlements. The Jedi could defuse a situation before it could explode into a larger conflict.

No, not reading the script, but as was said, he knew their battle tactics. Mace didn't even think that the Droid Army would be at the ready which is why Dooku says that he should already know that they're outnumbered.

Why do you think Palpatine had Kashyyyk attacked when it was? He knew that Yoda had good relations and thus would go, along with Quinlan Vos and Luminara Unduli. As well as caused the rift that would lead to Obi-wan going to Utapau? Divide and conquer. And Mace had believed that four Masters would be enough due to his arrogance. More, Mace had believed that they didn't have time since Palpatine had revealed himself to Anakin, he believed that whatever he had going, he might be ready to do it soon.

A result of letting Luke be raised by the Lars.

People can fight, but it has to be for the right reasons and under the right circumstances.

They were dying from starvation. They weren't dead yet. If they killed people, it would work against their invasion and occupation. And Padme doesn't want anyone to die in this.

Aboard Nute's ship, his mandate was to force a settlement. That ended when the Jedi went they failed to get onto the bridge. Everything else that was done was about protection. Not diplomacy on their part.

Not Maul, where the Sith were last seen a thousand years ago.

And the Jedi did try to unravel it, by going to where the Sith last were. Not Tatooine, but where the war ended. As to the rest, two Jedi were sent for protection purposes. Six would be overkill and thus suspicious of war activities.

 

All very interesting, I suppose, but...not in the movies. I really fail to see (as I keep saying) how ideas and concepts from outside of the movies can be described as being the story the movies are telling. And...if it is the dogma that leads to the Sith breaking off from the Jedi then...how can they have changed? If they are dogmatic and that is their true fault...how can you also claim that their true fault is that they have changed? You are contradictng yourself again.

Again you haven't addressed the question - when are we shown this - you just repeat (with a slight change of emphasis) the same point you made before.

As for "That's part of the reason why TCW exists" brings us right back to the basis of the discussion. How can TCW tell us anything about the story the movies told? They can't. It can absolutely be shown that some conceptions in TCW are clearly , irrefutably contradictory to what Lucas considered the story to be at the time. All that TCW can be is an insight into how Lucas (and others) have now decided to frame the story. TCW is not a key to understanding what Lucas' story was about at the time, or what the PT actually tells as a story narratively.

Not from the movies.... But, let me get this straight, just so we're not talking past each other. You know that the Separatists are going to use their huge army to invade Republic planets, yes? So...when they invade those planets, with military force and, let's just say the inhabitants aren't particularly pleased with this (you know, a bit like how the Naboo weren't particularly pleased with the tactics of the TF... - you know the only actual in-movie evidence we have of how the Separatist action is likely to operate.), are you seriously telling me that the citizens will be thankful that the Jedi decided not to intervene for them? Really?

Palpatine creates a deceit. Is it not ok for citizens of the Republic to wish for protection against the Separatists? Is that the "self interest" you are talking of? Should they be thinking of the "greater good". Of course one side was fighting out of fear...they've been attacked by a huge army. You know, sometimes "fear" is perfectly reasonable...if someone sticks a gun in my face I think the fear of being shot is - in the circumstances - well placed. In fact, wthe use of the term "fighting out of fear" is misplaced. If the Republic had decided to attack the Separatists because they heard a rumour that the Separatists were going to launch attacks (but weren't) then they would be "fighting out of fear"...they are, instead, reacting to a very real army that is attacking the Republic..that's called defence. They are fighting in self-defence.

So...the Jedi aren't going against their principles in acting to defend. What are these things that they hold dear that are in some way more important than defending the Republic against an aggressive military threat? And...would this be the dogmatic Jedi? The dogmatic Jedi who have....somehow changed???!

Hmmm...you see I can't but point out how weak the writing is here. This makes no sense. Literally no sense. I can understand that there has been a debate on-going but, there is new information now. Then we're told that there's no way the Senate will agree to the clone army being voted for...so the solution is to get the Senate to vote for emergency power for the Chancellor so that he can take on the clone army....errr??!!

The outcome is the same...the Senate effectively vote for the clone army by proxy of the Chancellor gaining emergency powers....so that the Senate not only vote for the army they wouldn't vote for but give away a whole load of their powers at the same time... This is monumental stupidity. But....the narrative requires that everybody is dumb so...

What 'people'? We never see the 'people' in these movies. And...what a wonderfully moral choice to make. Never mind how many of these 'people' die or suffer...let them learn the hard way about what they "allowed to happen". It sounds harsh because...it is harsh. It would be immoral, frankly, for the Jedi - knowing only what they know at the time - to treat the people of the Republic this way. It reminds me of a graffiti (I think it was by Banksy) - When we turn away from a battle between the powerful and the powerless we don't remain neutral, we side with the powerful.

If, as you claimed earlier, the Senate is "A government that is largely run by corporations and special interest groups. It's meant to be a commentary on how lobbyists and special interests groups in the real world get their way on political matters" then how can you blame the 'people' - who are the ones who will duffer. How can you sentence them to suffer for they "allowed to happen" when...they had no voice to do otherwise...the corruption is in the Senate isn't it?

And...how could the people expect this "less draconian society" from an invading Separatist army? We've seen, after all, how that goes...on Naboo.

Just.... I don't even know where to begin. The whole concept - as I have alluded to before - of knowledge, as in new powers, completely misses the point of the end of ROTJ. The darkside is not overcome by the Jedi way because of any new power the Jedi have. The true strength of the Jedi is their selflessness, compassion and understanding. It is the understanding that is the knowledge...not new powers.

In fact 'the ability to become one with the Force and retain your conscious self..a power greater than all it is' sounds remarkably like....the power to cheat death....

But...aside from all of that...where are we told (in the movies) that the Jedi stopped seeking 'knowledge'?

First you attempt to use Obi-Wan's line to Anakin about practicing his lightsabre skills to 'prove' that Anakin ought to be able to take Dooku (when clearly the line is intended as a light-hearted jibe about his cheek). Now this...? Really? You think this is intended as a criticism or commentary on Obi-Wan? Isn't it about the difference between droids (knowledge) and living beings (wisdom)? If it is intended as a jibe against the Jedi then...it fails terribly. Not the least reason being.....what Dexter tells Obi-Wan has nothing to do with wisdom, but only actually about knowledge he has that the droids don't....

Yes...by Palpatine. And I agree he falls for it very foolishly but....Palpatine seems to have this affect on characters throughout the movies....

Indeed. This is what I and Samuel Vimes have been saying for a good few pages now. This looks, though, to me like an empty platitude in place of a response to a question.

...and another.

So...their going to Geonosis was a reasonable choice then? That isn't what you argued earlier.

But...how can a tactic that fails so miserably be considered sound? And...they didn't go there to fight a war, they went there to try and stop one.


But....you have argued anyway that they shouldn't even have done that. Just let the people suffer what they must......no matter how harsh that is.

Knowledge was never about new powers. It is about coming to understand.

I know some people think that patience is a virtue, and that 'all good things come to those who wait' but....ten years?

When was this 'cut out'? Thank the Force it was eh? I mean...just how dumb would the Jedi have to be for what Dooku has to tell them to fall on deaf ears? They finish TPM with the question of whether Maul was the Master or the Apprentice....but they don't bother to listen to what Dooku has learned from Gunray about a Sith Lord at the heart of the Senate? He tells them this while he was a Jedi and the Jedi ignore him. While their reason for being suspicious of what he says in AOTC is that he serves the darkside....lies and mistrust his weapons are - they have no such excuse while he is a Jedi.

Just goes to show...sometimes there is good reason things are cut out.

 

Increased understanding can lead to new abilities being discovered. There does not need to always be a divide between them.