main
side
curve
  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

PT Some Keys to the Prequels

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by EternalHero, Feb 15, 2015.

  1. only one kenobi

    only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 2012


    I think you perhaps misunderstand my point. darth-sinister is essentially arguing that it is only by learning these 'new powers' can the Jedi be strong enough to overcome the Sith. My point is...the Sith aren't overcome by power or powers. What Luke (and Anakin, at the end) learn has absolutely nothing to do with their power.
     
  2. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Because they're part of the overall story which expands upon the ideas in the films.

    The dogma that Palpatine refers to is studying and using every aspect of the Force to their advantage, including the dark side. The Jedi don't use the dark side because it will lead to bad things. The Jedi who founded the Sith Order did so because they studied the dark side and it corrupted them, leading to the Sith wanting to take over rather than being servants to the Republic. But the teachings that the Jedi didn't know about were aspects of the Force that didn't rely on the dark side, but understanding and growing stronger in the Force. In ways of staying on the path of the righteous without having to be what the Jedi were at the time. The Bardotta took issue with the Jedi because they weren't dedicated to the Force and instead were meddling in galactic affairs. The Bardotta, like the Whills, continued to learn all there was about the Force. Palpatine was right about the quest for greater knowledge, but the motivations were wrong.

    Certain ones might be more willing to support a different government from the one that was in place. Supporting the notion that someone is standing up to a government that was corrupt and had become too draconian in its operations. Naboo wasn't pleased because they still supported the Senate and the Republic. Padme wasn't aware of how bad things really were which is why Palpatine called her naive when talking to Nute.

    The problem was that the fear was clouding judgment. Yoda saw that. He still believed that the two sides could still reach an accord without having to fire a single shot. But people acted out of fear and that fear resulted in giving power to Palpatine in order to decide what was best for everyone.

    The problem was both sides were powerful and thus no matter where people turned, someone was going to get burned. The common people supported one side over the other, because they either feared occupation or they despised corruption. Loyalties were divided across the board. Ryloth was invaded and occupied by the Confederacy and then later liberated by the Jedi and the Republic, but even then, there were a feeling that their presence was basically another form of occupation. That's how bad the Republic was viewed during the war. Even though there was no further occupation after the planet and system was freed from Confederate control, it took a lot of compromise and negotiate to get to that point. Then there's Toydaria which was willing to work with either side, depending on how they benefit from it. they choose the Republic since they made a better offer and proved themselves capable.

    Because sometimes, something is needed to spark an awakening. Mere words are not enough and sometimes, certain actions are required. Look at how long it took the US to decide to get involved in WWII. Look at what it took to convince them to do so.

    An action that was the result of resistance. Had Padme signed the treaty, they wouldn't have taken such extreme actions to force her to come back and sign.

    It is accepting death and transitioning to a state of consciousness when becoming one with the Force, which in turn allows the Jedi to pass on knowledge of the Force beyond their physical deaths. As to the selflessness, compassion and understanding, the Jedi still have that. But there is more. This knowledge is about understanding how the Living Force connects to the Cosmic Force. The Jedi didn't quite see it this way, but Qui-gon started to do so. What the Jedi had stopped learning was that they must continue to purge themselves of the dark side, something they stopped doing long ago.

    It wasn't just a jibe at Anakin, but an actual admission that the boy wasn't what he should be. That's why he says to Yoda and Mace that Anakin's abilities have made him arrogant and why Anakin thinks that he is ahead of Obi-wan. But he isn't. That's why he lost to Dooku. The knowledge and wisdom from Dex is about how Obi-wan and Jocasta don't have the wisdom to see beyond their own point of view and see simple truths. Obi-wan cannot figure out why Kamino doesn't show up in the Archives, but a child does. Jocasta believes that if it isn't there, then it doesn't exist. She doesn't consider that it was erased as the Padawan does. Nor does Obi-wan.

    Yes, but we're talking of two different things.

    They wanted to stop a war, but they didn't know that they were there to start one. That's the point. But as to my point, it was sound only in that they approached it wrong. If they went there to sabotage the Droid Factory, or find the control device and disable it, then it would be sound. But they didn't. They went in to fight.

    That suffering wound up happening and it wound up sparking the people to fight.

    That's why I believe that after Nute came to Dooku, he went to the Council and they let him handle it and when he reported back, they refused to accept what was told. And it is also quite possible that they were denied the opportunity to question him.

    They don't believe Nute that Darth Sidious controlled the Senate. That's why Dooku said that by the time they would believe him, it would be too late. That was also cut, but in the film itself, Obi-wan has trouble believing it at first and even afterwards, he says that it doesn't feel right to him and the others agree. They cannot admit that they were so easily tricked and that their powers were so diminished, as well as that the Sith had done something different. This goes back to Dex. They had the knowledge that Sidious controlled the Senate, but they didn't have the wisdom to believe that it was possible and that they should have done more than they did. That's why it takes another three years for Mace to conclude that Palpatine is not to be trusted.
     
    Subtext Mining likes this.
  3. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    This sounds a bit like Ra's al Ghul from Batman Begins. he felt that Gotham was beyond saving and should be destroyed. And to him it didn't matter that millions would die. It was all for the greater good. Little hint, he was the villain!
    I don't see the Jedi in SW in any way thinking like this and if they did, THAT I would view as a break with their morals.

    Plus, based on what you say, Palpatine did a GOOD thing. He destroyed a corrupt republic and made people realize what they had lost. So he is the Hero?


    No more of "everyone in the PT is a moron except Palpatine."

    Which is what I have been saying for quite a while now. The Jedi had no easy "magic" alternative.
    You keep claiming that they should just have done "This" and everything would be fixed and everyone would be happy.

    So you think that the Jedi were right in going to Geonosis???

    Earlier you said;
    You keep contradicting yourself. This makes any discussion frustrating as you keep contradicting yourself in order to serve what ever point you are arguing.
    First it was wrong for the Jedi to go to Geonisis. Now it was sound and had they captured Dooku and disabled the droid army then that would have been a victory.

    I argued this in several post and you kept saying no, they should not have gone there, capturing Dooku would not matter etc.
    I am going to bow out of this discussion as it will not go anywhere for the above reason


    No, again the films do not support your reasoning. Dooku says Nute came TO HIM and told him everything. If this is true then he would have told the Jedi the same thing and they would know about Sidious. Since they clearly don't then either he told them nothing or they didn't question him.


    First, this was CUT form the film. So it doesn't matter.
    Second, this makes the Jedi an even bigger collection of morons, if that is somehow possible.
    Probably even Lucas realized that the Jedi would look beyond stupid if these lines where in there.

    Above you argued that going to Geonisis to caputure Dooku and diabling the droid army was sound. Now you are back to saying they shouldn't.
    More contradictions.


    Ah, I think I can see the mistake you are making here.
    You assume that this was written with some sort of plan or forethought.
    Not so I fear. Lucas simply need things to happen and so they do, doesn't matter if they make sense or not.
    Lucas needs Padme and the Jedi to go back to Naboo for the big climax. Doesn't matter that based on what they know, the blockade would still be there and they would get shot down or captured before they can land.
    The TF, if they were told about her coming, would intercept her ship BEFORE it can land as that would solve their problem quickly. They can force her to sign the treaty and they don't have to search the planet for her.
    But instead they withdraw all but one of their ships for no reason and don't try a grab her as soon as she arrives. This was also needed as otherwise the whole "Fly up and attack the TF ship" plan would be useless. So the TF were very considerate to help the heroes here.

    Murdering and attempting to murder ambassadors or their people would be a very serious breach in today's world and could be viewed as an act of aggression.
    Also, the TF launched a military invasion of a republic world, this is war

    I am reminded by MP's the argument clinic, everything I say, you contradict. And sometimes you contradict yourself as well.

    Padme had been taken prisoner by the TF. The Jedi broke her free. This is not taking a side?
    They got her away from Naboo and planned to take her to Coruscant.
    Padme wanted to stay but Qui-Gon had to insist that she come along. This is not involving themselves?


    You didn't want to admit that what he did was wrong or you tried to dismiss it as something very minor. Mass murder isn't minor in my book.

    No he read the script as did Palpatine in all three films. Why would Mace think the droid army was not ready?
    Mace KNOWS that Obi-Wan was caught while sending a transmission. So the seps would know that they have caught a spy and they would also know that the republic might do something.
    So Mace would know that the seps would be on high alert.
    And he is dealing with a former Jedi that knows their tactics.
    Mace is a grade A Idiot for not changing their approach.

    But the real reason for this simple, BAD writing.
    Lucas needs things to happen and so they do. I doubt he thought through what the appropriate action would be or how the characters would think. He needs them to do things despite it being totally stupid. Which is his choice as a writer, to me it weakens the films as many of the characters comes across as having to be stupid just so the plot can work.

    Given that travel times in the SW galaxy is hours or maybe a day at most. Mace would not loose much time in recalling Yoda. And if Mace had had any brains he would have questioned Anakin a little more and found out that Palpatine just TOLD Anakin that he was a Sith and then let him leave.
    To some with a brain this would be highly suspicious. The Sith Lord the Jedi have spent over a decade looking for just tells a Jedi who he is. It would require much brains from Mace to realize that if they barge into Palpatine's office, weapons drawn, they look like traitors and this is something Palpatine can use. So take a few minutes, contact Yoda and make some sort of plan.

    But as we know, the Jedi are idiots.

    A trite statement that doesn't really address the issue.
    The republic was about to get attacked and TPM showed how the TF operated so no reason to think the seps would be any different. Padme fought against the TF, was she wrong?
    People will die, possibly by the millions or even by the billions considering the seps had plans to build a DS. Whose only job is to destroy planets.
    Yet you argue that the "Moral" thing to do was to let the seps run wild and kill, plunder and enslave.
    Sorry, not seeing the morality in this.


    You have no evidence that no one died on Naboo. We have a message talking about a heavy death toll. Padme saying that her people are dying. And you interpret that as this was a totally bloodless invasion?
    The TF killed everyone on the ship the Jedi came with so obviously they don't have a problem with killing people. So the idea that they would use kid gloves with the Naboo is not supported by the films and in fact is contradicted by it.
    Also why would the TF care if some people died? Any witnesses to the invasion are obviously not a concern so dead bodied are likewise no problem. And Sidious told them to "wipe them out, all of them." So again, not this benevolent, never use lethal force invasion.

    And what would they find there 1000 years later?
    Don't you think the trail would have gone a bit cold over a millennia?

    [/QUOTE]


    Firstly, the jedi ARE already involved. They have not gotten a senate ok to go to Naboo, protect Padme or to involve themselves in any way. So sending 2 or 6 people will not make any difference in that regard.
    Second, the TF have already declared war by attacking and conquering a republic world.

    But more importantly, look at what the jedi do.
    The Jedi thinks that Maul will be on Naboo and they send Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan with Padme to draw him out. And then they have the place where the Sith used to be 1000 years ago. Which place should get priority?
    Well to anyone not brain dead, obviously Naboo.
    But the Jedi instead go "We'll send 100 Jedi to the place where the sith were 1000 years ago and of course the trail has not gone cold over a millennia. Meanwhile we'll send only two Jedi to the place where we think that the Sith might actually be."

    I know you are trying to defend these films but I am sorry, you only make the characters look even more stupid and make the films worse the more you try and defend them.

    This discussion is has been quite fun but it clearly isn't going anywhere so I'll take my leave from it.

    Bye.
    The Guarding Dark
     
    only one kenobi likes this.
  4. FRAGWAGON

    FRAGWAGON Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 3, 2012
    Great! Now maybe it can get back on topic. Question: have you or darth-sinister read the OP?