PT Some Keys to the Prequels

I really wonder what is going to happen when the ST comes out and very likely goes down the same kind of story path that the PT era did in the movies and TCW.

When this happens (and I think it likely) then the OT will be the even trilogy out (trilogy 2 that is) with it's entirely correct path of more simple B&W's after the evil has been revealed but in the ST it's going to once again get a lot murkier who is doing what and for what reason.

It will be interesting to see the reaction.

 

I thought we were supposed to get an entirely different feeling trilogy from the OT and PT? Isn't that what the entire Saga fans were wanting?

But of course, its similar to the PT and not the OT so who cares?

 

First, Kirk was wrong. Soon after he gets put in a no win scenario. His ship is damaged and can't move away fast enough, Khan's ship is about to blow and take Kirk's ship with him. Spock solves the problem but at the cost of his life. So Kirk manages to escape but at the cost of his best friend.
Kirk was quite proud of the fact that he managed to "cheat" the test and death and he thought he could "cheat" here too. He was wrong. He was left alive but suffered a big loss.
In an way, Khan had his revenge, he hurt Kirk and he kept on hurting him.

Second, there are alternatives to fighting yes, the question is whether or not those alternatives are more "moral" or actually solve the problem or just makes things worse.
In the example of Han, he could have blown up the MF, he could have surrendered, he could have tried to sell Obi-Wan and Luke to the Empire. Are those "better"? Not really.

You keep making a baseless assumption that by not fighting, a "magic" solution will just present it self and all problems would be instantly solved and the Jedi win with no damage done.
Based on what we know, this is not the case. What options did they have? They could have surrendered. Not sure that would have helped any. They could have refused to fight, this would serve Palpatine quite well as he could label them as traitors and have the clones hunt them down.
Bottom line, you keep assuming that a more "moral" alternative existed despite no proof and condemn the Jedi for not taking this make believe route. The situation would most likely be even worse if the Jedi reuse to fight.

Based on AotC, the Republic have ZERO defenses other than the Jedi. So the Jedi are the only ones that the republic could call upon to fight. And yet the Jedi have in their mandate that they won't fight?
So the republic have no defenses at all? The film make no mention of sector fleets, local armies or what ever. And since 200 000 soldiers was a "HUGE" army for the republic and one that they shouldn't have been able to come up with quickly, then the picture is pretty clear. The republic have no other defenders than the Jedi. And the Jedi have protected the republic for 30 000 years.

Lastly, by fighting, the Jedi could very well have won. In AotC had they been able to take out Dooku, then the seps would have fallen apart and the war would be over before it even started. In RotS, had Anakin taken a bit longer to get to Palpatine's office, Mace would have killed Palpatine and Force balanced and war over. The Jedi would probably face some very serious questions from the senate about all this. But the Sith would be dead.
The Jedi have flaws and the main one to me, is that they are quite clueless and stupid. But the plot needs them to be stupid and so they are.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

10,000 people simply isn't enough to police 100 quadrillion - hence the EU's "judicial forces" (referenced in TCW with Yularen's statements in Cat & Mouse)

 

There was a good discussion about this topic on the old temp/Xenforo boards from 2012. The poster named Darth Angelus made the point that AOTC presented a problem of 'scale': the size of the Clone Army - whether 200,000 or 3 million (it's highest number according to wookiepedia) - is too small for a galaxy of the size that's depicted/implied in the Star Wars universe.

 

You mean this thread?

http://gd.theforce.net/xentemp/inde...the-original-trilogy.1428/page-20#post-139747

 

You mean this thread? [/quote]

http://gd.theforce.net/xentemp/inde...the-original-trilogy.1428/page-20#post-139747


Yes.

 

Logically I would agree with you.

But the problem is that nowhere in AotC are any forces other than the Jedi mentioned. Mace says that there aren't enough Jedi to protect the republic. Dooku says that with their droid army they will overwhelm the Jedi and the republic will be beaten. IF the republic had say 10 million regular soldiers spread out over various sectors, that should be mentioned.
Second, on Geonosis, Yoda arrives with 200 000 clones and maybe a dozen warships. And this was a huge army and the seps were surprised that the republic could come up with this many soldiers so quickly. Which again suggest that the republic have very, very few soldiers.

People have likened the republic to the UN or the European Union which doesn't have big army of it's own. Fair enough but the problem is that the seps are planning to attack the republic and this would include all the worlds that belong to it. So if the various member worlds have large armies they would not be irrelevant in an all out attack on the republic.
To bring it back to the UN example, say an alien force attacked earth, intent on wiping out humanity. Would the combined military of earth be just the UN forces or ALL the armies of earth? I would say the latter.

Another problem is that we have 1,2 million clones, which as Tosche_Station pointed out is way too small a number for a galactic war.

What I think happened is that Lucas wanted the republic to have no defenses so that they would have to use the clone army. I mean if the republic already had a big military then 1 million clones would be no big deal. I also think that he didn't really think through what kind of numbers are needed for a galactic war nor how implausible it is for the republic to have no armed forces what so ever.
I also think he focused way too much on foot soldiers and overlook the fleet, which would be far more important in space battles.

So yes I agree that the republic ought to have forces other than the Jedi if it should be able to function. The problem is that they are mentioned and based on the films, they seem to not exist.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

I imagine pre-AOTC Yularen wearing a police uniform and commanding a ship painted in "police car" colours

A bit like this - but much larger:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Police_Sector_417

 

But then Kirk turned around in the next film and was able to Kobiyashi Maru his way out of a no-win situation on Genesis. Just as he often had. McCoy even later referred to it due to their situation on Rura Pentha and again, they managed to get out of a no-win scenario.

It is more than just moral high ground. Fighting in the war is what gives Palpatine his power power and destroyed the balance to the Force. By taking another solution, even despite how unpopular it would be, they would be able to better save the Republic from the Sith and wouldn't have been nearly wiped out like they were. We know that there is local security based on Naboo's defense forces, the inclusion of uniformed officers like Tarkin and Yurlaren in both TCW and ROTS. They would have been running the ships that we saw in AOTC. And we know there was local resistance as seen on Utapau and Kashyyyk.

 

Not really a no-win on Genesis as Kirk lost his son Marcus. Something that haunted him for quite a while after that. So yes he got Spock back but not without a price.
And Kirk died defending a world and stopping it from being destroyed but he himself could not cheat death there.

Unrelated to this, I recently watched the TOS ep. "Balance of Terror. And it is a great ep in my view.
But the issue under discussion is interesting. Federation outpost shave been attacked and destroyed by Romulans. They debated whether or not they should try and attack that Romulan ship before it goes home. And the logical Mr Spock (You will be missed, Mr Nimoy) pushes for an attack. He argues that the Romulans have a Martial philosophy that they don't dare show weakness against.

Had the Ent crew acted like you think the Jedi should have, they would not have engaged the Romulan ship. Which would have returned with reports of the Federations weakness and there would now be a major war. Which would certainly have been worse.
As Kirk said "Are you suggesting we fight, to prevent a fight?"

[/QUOTE]

Palpatine already had his power. With the extra powers he was already emperor in all but name. He had the clone army that would do anything he told them to. Had the Jedi refused to fight, order 66 would have happened sooner and things would in all likelihood be worse, not better. The Jedi refusing to fight wouldn't just be unpopular, it could brand them as traitors.

You keep arguing from an absolute moral high ground "The Jedi must not fight in a war, EVER" If they do, they are wrong and immoral. In short, your view is totally black and white, some things a Jedi must never, ever do, regardless of circumstance.

And yet you are very forgiving towards Anakin, who commits mass murder and you call that just a "mistake".

Tarkin was in the last bit of RotS where we suddenly see a lot of "Imperial" officers so some time seemed to have passed. Who is Yurlaren, was he/she in the films? If not, as I've said many times, I don't give credit to things not IN the films because they are not IN the films.

As for the rest, see my earlier post. A republic of more than one million worlds was deemed unable to raise an army of 200 000 soldiers on short notice. This tells us very clearly that this republic doesn't have a lot of soldiers.

Final question, say we remove Palpatine from the situation. Dooku is the only sith, he has raised a droid army and created the seps and attacks the republic. Would it still be wrong for the Jedi to fight?
With no Sith controlling the republic, with no clone army programmed to kill all Jedi. Is it still wrong?
The Jedi fighting wouldn't add any "Power" to Palpatine because he doesn't exist.

Bye for now.
The Guarding Dark

 

Another thing about that incident is that they wake up back in their ship with no time past, so they don't really know if it happened. That's what they say to Yoda in the final episode of season 6.

I liked the Mortis and Yoda arcs because they show that Jedi are not the most powerful force users. The Jedi are mortals. Just beginning to learn about the force. The thing everyone seems to miss about the whole saga is that no Jedi is infallible, even Yoda and those who achieve immortality. Even the uber powerful "father" on Mortis has to learn from his own failure. Nobody is above failure. Good lesson. To live is to learn.

 

Actually I think it was the point of the whole saga. The Jedi knew they were not invincible, and never pretended to be so, but the problem was everyone else thought they were. Luke was disabused of that very quickly with Ben and Yoda's deaths, and Anakin learnt immediately after Qui Gon.Then Order 66.

If mortality was the lesson to be learnt from Mortis, then it was not the Jedi (certainly not Anakin or Obi Wan) who needed to learn it.
And I still fail to see how a lesson of "everybody dies" may be learnt by bringing people back to life.
If Mortis wanted to explore how seemingly infallible people can fall, then the Mortis arc would have been best served by turning the truly infallible (Obi Wan, not a simpering padawan I don't care about). Then that would really foreshadow/subvert Mustafar, provide character exploration, and shake up Anakin's faith in his mentor and the Jedi.

 

Kirk took a loss and turned it into a chance to survive as he destroyed the Enterprise to prevent the Klingons from gaining control. And he did win as he got back his best friend and brother in Spock. As to dying, you kinda miss what was said. Kirk has faced death and did cheat it, but David pointed out that he had told Savvik that how they die is as important as how they face life. Kirk would rather go out making a difference as he did on Veridian III, as opposed to being an old man in bed. Or falling from El Capitan, which is why he said that he knew how he would die and thus he wasn't worried.

Ah, true. But then, not every solution is to fight. "Errand Of Mercy" has Kirk willing to fight Kor since war is inevitable, but the Organians then get involved by putting the two commanders through a series of trials before revealing their true nature and force a peace treaty to be signed. One that lasts long enough for both sides to reach an accord which happens at Kithomer, over twenty years later.

Palpatine didn't have the power in AOTC. He needed the war to get all the power that he needed. He couldn't justify Order 66 without the Jedi turning traitor as he manipulated them into becoming. That's why he didn't have it happen on Geonosis. Much less two months into the war.

The Jedi can fight, but they should never have fought this war and not for the Republic.

Uh, I didn't call his choice a mistake. I said that he made a choice to do evil and he's paid a price for it. He chooses to be selfish and he chose to be evil. The Jedi Order should have never let themselves be put in that position, just as Anakin shouldn't have either.

Yurlean is this guy...



Who later became this guy...



And he was in the film, "The Clone Wars" which also had an animated series. Lorth Needa was also involved during the Battle of Coruscant. He's the one responsible for the Invisible Hand being badly damaged.

They had people qualified to fight, but the issue wasn't in getting those people. It was passing the Military Creation Act which would justify recruiting all the people from the Planetary Defense Network and getting them together. There was plenty of time for that, but Palpatine's fear mongering resulted in the Senate foolishly giving him the ability to authorize the Clone Army.

That situation would be different. One, the Force wouldn't be in such a fragile state. Two, there wouldn't be an army for the Republic. Whether they succeeded at Geonosis or not, the Senate would decide on its own to create an army and to defend itself or not.

The lesson of Mortis wasn't that everyone dies, but that the three of them must think beyond themselves. That is why the Father tells Anakin that he will bring balance again if he stays on this path. When Anakin awakens from his memory wipe and is told what happened, he realizes that he must stop the Son regardless of what happened. He must put aside his own needs in order to do this. He is shown that the Father would lay down his life to stop the Son, regardless of how much he loves him and what it would mean to die. The Father makes a sacrifice for the Son's soul. It is not unlike what happens in ROTJ. Luke finds a way to bring the good out of Vader, just as the Father did with the Son.

 

It would also have helped if it actually furthered the development of the characters involved or the narrative of the show...you know since they all just wake up from the Mortis "dream" remembering none of it.

 

ObiWan? Infallible? I did not see that in him at all. By fallible, I mean "capable of making mistakes or being erroneous (definition of fallible)," not falling to the dark side.

Mortis illustrated that even a force user as advanced as The Father (demonstratably far more powerful than any Jedi or Sith) was fallible. That is what I was referring to. We all knew Anakin was fallible already. That wasn't what I meant. Everyone is fallible in Star Wars, as in real life. Without the ability to err, one has no ability to learn anything.

 

Regarding alternatives to the Clone War, it would seem the proper Jedi path would be to allow secession. (Sorry about double post, thought previous page was the last page)

 

That isn't, though, a choice the Jedi can make. One might as well say that R2-D2 should have allowed secession.

 

No SW work has ever implied that the Jedi were infallible. I don't see how this single episode of TCW is any different. In fact ROTS does a much better job as painting the Jedi as well-meaning-but-flawed.

 

Considering how advanced the Father was compared to a Jedi, I think it drives the point home. It was also good to see Yoda taken down a notch in the final Yoda arc. He's no saint.

 

By allow, I mean not actively invading secessionists. Not leading armies against them. Clearly the dark side.

 

Well, insofar as the dialogue of the PT is (in my opinion at least) woeful, I think a good way to understand the meaning of the films is through analysis of their visual composition. See, for instance, that really great Visual Links thread in the Saga In-Depth forum. (Beware! Being image-heavy, it's not for the faint of heart, or the feeble of Internet connection.)

But, apropos of nothing, I think perhaps the greatest key to the prequels is the Clavicula Salomonis.... which one can find behind a mirror, in the catacombs of Venice.

By which I mean, I may well have spent too much time reading Indiana Jones comic books.

Seriously, though, be careful not to go looking too hard for occult symbolism in the prequels. You're liable to break your brain if you do.

 

He never claimed to be one. But he does have the most experience and skill, so it was fitting that all the Jedi consider him their mentor. He has a tough and lonely job, being protector of the protectors. They did make Yoda vulnerable, and I loved Obi Wan getting all protective, but I hated that stoopid guilt-tripping Tano sequence (Come on, he's fighting a war at 900, he's got bigger problems).
And there is a difference between showing the flaws of the Order and humiliating them to promote pet characters. I half expected to see Yoda grovelling in front of Tano's pedestal in his arc (I wasn't entirely mistaken).

Unless we said The Force itself were fallible, then we'd be getting somewhere. And it's ironic that the series created a truly infallible character (who makes no mistakes and cannot die) to point out the fallibility of everyone else. Otherwise TCW doesn't really tell me anything newsworthy that I couldn't already infer from the movies.

 

One. They're not, now, simply secessionists...they are planning on invading the Republic (remember the meeting...with Dooku..that Obi-Wan listened in on?). Two, the clones will be used in the war, that is a choice made by the Senate and the Chancellor.