some nice offical stuff from wotc

I don't remember off the top of my head what the RPG book says but I think Mace is above Yoda is above Qui-Gon.

Qui-Gon lost to Maul. QG<M.

Kenobi beat Maul. QG<M<K.

Kenobi lost to Dooku (twice). QG<M<K<DK.

Yoda ties Dooku. QG<M<K<DK=Y.

Dooku was the emperor's apprentice. QG<M<K<DK=Y<E.

What happened in ROTS? Mace Windu defeats the emperor but shows hesitation in finishing him. Only with Anakin could Windu be defeated. Thus QG<M<K<DK=Y<E<W.

That's the order of things.

 

A shaft beats Palpatine. Thus Mace Windu = Shaft. Makes sense, I'm sold.

 

Yoda basically ties Palpy, and Kenobi beats anakin. You left some out.

 

you can't say who's better than who based on one single fight. anakin beat kenobi later in a new hope, what does that do to the order?

everyone can have an off day, everyone can have a day where they do particularly well and are feeling particularly fresh.

 

Mace Windu defeats the emperor

Keep dreamin', fanboy

 

windu did beat the emperor, until there's a source that says palpatine threw the fight then i think its pretty obvious he did

 

I do feel that mace out fought the emporer. I think that the emporer probably could've used his force powers to kick mace's ass even if anakin didn't show up.

 

windu did beat the emperor, until there's a source that says palpatine threw the fight then i think its pretty obvious he did

He sure did. But Palpatine threw the fight. Thats most certainly obvious. A strong majority of the people who have seen the film agree.
Not that this is the place to discuss these things

 

yeah, people think that, but how many people thought that in esb yoda was some mad green thing?

not sure where this is going, but the only thing to base that assumption on is what palpatine has done previously, and based on the lightning on windu after he lost his hand. FP spend anybody?

no source has said he threw the fight. once it does, i'll concede, but at the moment, the sources point towards windu besting sidious more than sidious throwing it.

once someone makes up their mind its hard to argue otherwise with them, and i've made up my mind , i wont go on anymore though it's totally objective, and i think it might be left that way for a few years.

 

I don't think sidious threw the saber fight. Look at the expression on his face, he was pissed. I do feel that when he lost his saber, that he was still very much in the fight, but he decided to play the defenseless victim for anakin's benefit.

 

yeah, people think that, but how many people thought that in esb yoda was some mad green thing?

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not sure where this is going, but the only thing to base that assumption on is what palpatine has done previously, and based on the lightning on windu after he lost his hand. FP spend anybody?

I don't know what you mean by this.

no source has said he threw the fight. once it does, i'll concede, but at the moment, the sources point towards windu besting sidious more than sidious throwing it.

Not really.

once someone makes up their mind its hard to argue otherwise with them, and i've made up my mind , i wont go on anymore though it's totally objective, and i think it might be left that way for a few years.

You're right. Why bother trying to convice eachother. What does it really matter anyway. I'm sure it will be cleared up in the audio commentary. And if your right, I'll admit I was wrong

Keep rocking!

 

the point i was trying to make above was that palps could have been real low on vitality points and real fatigued, but that lightning blast he used to knock could have been a result of using a force point/calling on the dark side kinda thing. I know it's hard to compare movies to the rpg system, but that's what its for right?

 

Ah, I see what you mean now.
But I don't he was any lower on VP than Windu. He did kill Fisto, Kolar and Tiin in about 5 seconds without any trouble.
If Windu did indeed win the fight fair and square (No way in hell btw ) then more than likely it was the result of a critical hit, since neither combatant seemed fatigued.
Mace Windu does have the Martial Arts feat and would be able to score a critical hit unarmed.
But just to be clear I believe that Palpatine threw the fight in order to make Windu think he won and make the whole thing look like an assassination attempt in Anakin's eyes.
And yes, Sidious probably used a Force Point to deal maximum damage to Windu.

 

wow half of you are insane and the other half are morons who don't know what your talking about.

j/k

Seriously though, Qui-Gon was on the top tier of the order in episode 1. The fact that he sparred with Mace and meditated with Plo-Koon only furthers this assumption. I thik Obi-Wan said it best. "You would be on the council if you only follow the code." EVEN if he was not the best Jedi he was very close

 

bah, if he was the 'best' jedi then he would have been on the council

best lightsaber duelist? one of the top 5 probably, but dooku, yoda and windu would have beaten him, don't know who else may have.

 

BTW to anyone who says that obi-wan was better because he beat maul who beat qui-gon..... this is flawed logic. Maul could have been tired. e only had one side of the saber and obi-wan only won because he got maul by surprise

 

I seem to recall the Obi-Wan vs. Maul duel was laid out, round-by-round, in SWG #1. If I remember correctly (the magazine's in a box somewhere), when Obi-Wan fell into the pit, the initial combat was over. When he leapt out of the pit again, both rolled for initiative again. Obi-Wan won that roll, and was thus able to attack first.

Nyar!

 

I never liked this idea of power ratings based on the duels we see in the movies (or books for that matter). To use a real life example, in TKD I have beaten people who are, generaly, much better than me. Maybe they're on an off day or I've thought up a new trick, whatever, but on the whole they are much better.

I would have thought the same applies. Maul + Anakin are better dualists that Obi-Wan, but he was still able to best them through one quick decision (all you need with a light sabre I guess).

 

BTW to anyone who says that obi-wan was better because he beat maul who beat qui-gon..... this is flawed logic. Maul could have been tired. e only had one side of the saber and obi-wan only won because he got maul by surprise


I completely agree. Qui-Gon was not only a better swordsman technically, but he was also much wiser and had more experience. I think the movie made that very clear.
But Qui-Gon was not the best swordsman in the order. Like Jedi_Matt said: Maybe in the top 5 but not the greatest.

 

But Qui-Gon was not the best swordsman in the order. Like Jedi_Matt said: Maybe in the top 5 but not the greatest.

I believe the novel made it explicitly clear that AT THE TIME, he was.

 

Wrong! Read previous posts.

 

I believe the novelization said that Qui-Gon's Master (Dooku, though we didn't know it at the time) considered him one of the best in the order, not that he was THE best. He was past his prime but his age-weakening-physique was tempered by his great experience.

That said, it seems clear to me that Mace was able to neutralize every attack Sidious threw at him. Except Anakin's corruption. Maybe not as experienced as Yoda, but not nearly as hobbled by age. The novelization of RotS got it right. Mace and Sidious were at impasse until the Chosen One intervened (for ill, as it turns out).

 

Age doesn't hamper them Physically they get weaker as they age of course, but that has no effect in battle, where they use the force. Look at Dooku mopping the floor with both Obi-Wan and young Anakin, when he was in his 80s. Obi-Wan couldn't prevail the 2nd time either. Then there's Sidious himself, and of course, then there's Yoda who as as strong as ever and flying around, when he only had about 20 more years to live in a near 1000 year old life.