Something I have been VERY concerned with as of late...

Yeah, I see that. For mthe most part, when people think of bashers they of people who say this sucks and that sucks. When Jedi Learner posted a thread about this in TPM forum, many thought of it as Internet Drama. But what is a petition? A petition is something that people sign. How are the mods going to help with a petition? They cant say: Oh, I know he would sign! Put him on the list! Jedi Learner posted that so the JC users could sign it. If we took it over PM it would take forever. So, for the people who wanted to sign should, if thats how the mods want to handle it, by a petition.

 

Jeff, there is plenty of discussion occuring in the TPM forum. There has never been any proof that the Sanctuary threads detract from discussion in the forums, just as there is no evidence that they caused the "rift" in the AOTC or 3NS/3SA forums. Personal opinion and subjective experience cause that, not threads.

 

Some of you have seen this snippet but what do the rest make of it.

---

The beginning of Episode III has already started and the Jedi Council members are in major discussion mode about what this Episode will bring to the Star Wars Sega. With almost every question and opinion discussed in the Episode II Forum, the people labelled Bashers and Gushers have stop the childish arguments that spilled into personal attacks from all sides. All is silent for the moment until the main spoilers come out for Episode III.

[link=http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=6165010&page=88]Episode I Defence Force[/link]

[link=]Episode II Defence Force[/link]

[link=http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=6155809&replies=12287]The Bashers Sanctuary Strikes Back[/link]

[b]More than ? members have asked that the Defence Force in the Episode I Forum and the Episode II Forum in the Community Forum be removed along with the Bashers Sanctuary in the Episode I Forum.[/b] These topics have a good purpose at heart, allowing people of similar tastes to socialise and discuss almost anything from the Prequels to the current world situation to old movies. We wish that was the truth, but the trust that was placed apon the time these were created have been thrown away.

[b]What is the problem with these Sanctuaries?[/b]

[ol][li]When newcomers to the Jedi Council come here and head for some good discussion and socialising in the Episode I Forum, what will these people encounter? They will encounter the terms [i]Bashers and Gushers[/i]. These terms will be placed apon them depending on their opinion of the Prequels. People that like Episode I will be accused of being blind at the obvious steaming poodoo before them, while the people that hate Episode I will be accused of having massive expectations on the Prequels. This might discourage these members from posting in the movie sections again.[/li]
[li]Many members who once posted at the Episode I Forum do not bother that much anymore. They want to discuss Episode I and socialise, but the friction between these Gushers and Bashers will affect them in some way. I personally know five people that now refuse to post at the Episode I Forum because of this problem.[/li]
[li]There should be no clear gap between different opinion and view here. The Defence Force was created after the Bashers Sanctuary was created. Newcomers shouldn't feel intimidated at any time during their visit to the Episode I Forum. These people don't interact with each other now, people that like Episode I are asked to leave the Basher Sanctuary, while people that hate Episode I are asked to leave the Defence Force. Why must there be a clear gap between these fans and their opinions?[/li]
[li]When large amounts of people meet to discuss the Prequels at the Basher Sanctuary, trouble can arise. People in large groups surrounded by people with similar tastes can do things they wouldn't do before. Some have personally attacked George Lucas and his handling of Episode I. Some have even attacked people for defending certain scenes in Episode II.[/li]
[/ol]

[hr]

And [b]Quixotic-Sith[/b], how does one get signatures for a petition if the topic was closed? [face_plain]

 

"Petitions" of this nature tend to attract sock-voting and people with little to no familiarty with the board in question or the issue as it arises. Now, to address the points in the petition individually, since this thread has already been derailed with little to no effort to get it back on track:

When newcomers to the Jedi Council come here and head for some good discussion and socialising in the Episode I Forum, what will these people encounter? They will encounter the terms Bashers and Gushers. These terms will be placed apon them depending on their opinion of the Prequels. People that like Episode I will be accused of being blind at the obvious steaming poodoo before them, while the people that hate Episode I will be accused of having massive expectations on the Prequels. This might discourage these members from posting in the movie sections again.

In which case the behavior is against the terms of service and should be reported to a moderator, who can act on flaming, trolling and the like. The system currently in place allows for this.

While folks have been disaffected with the attitudes of other posters, the threads in question have *kept* as many posters at TF.N as have left.

Further, you are assuming that seeing the term "Basher" in the Sanctuary will foster and perpetuate the conflict. You need to demonstrate this beyond your personal belief.

Many members who once posted at the Episode I Forum do not bother that much anymore. They want to discuss Episode I and socialise, but the friction between these Gushers and Bashers will affect them in some way. I personally know five people that now refuse to post at the Episode I Forum because of this problem.

And I know at least five posters who stayed here because they enjoyed the community and camaraderie they found in the threads in question. The forums gain and lose posters all of the time.

Further, the friction you speak of is no different than the friction found in the movie forums, the lit forums, the fanfic forums, etc. The difference is that all of the efforts to repair the TPM forum and create the atmosphere of civility we presently enjoy (which many here evidently have chosen to overlook) came from individuals affiliated with one of the two threads.

There should be no clear gap between different opinion and view here. The Defence Force was created after the Bashers Sanctuary was created. Newcomers shouldn't feel intimidated at any time during their visit to the Episode I Forum. These people don't interact with each other now, people that like Episode I are asked to leave the Basher Sanctuary, while people that hate Episode I are asked to leave the Defence Force. Why must there be a clear gap between these fans and their opinions?

There is no clear gap - most of the posters in these forums are in the mushy middle of the fandom - there are aspects they enjoy and aspects they don't. Newcomers are intimidated more by the size of the threads and the registration dates of the folks with whom they are posting, not by loose affiliations. The threads were created *after* the schism in the fanbase, and represent a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of the actual discussion on these boards. More evidence exists that these threads welcome new members and help them feel at home in the boards than that which claims they cause strife and dissention.

The claim that these folks don't interact with each other is nonsensical, and even the most cursory inspection of posting history demonstrates otherwise. There is a wealth of discussion in the forums, and the posters frequenting the threads engage in discussion across the film forums, as well as lit, FanFic, FanForce, props, Community, etc.

When large amounts of people meet to discuss the Prequels at the Basher Sanctuary, trouble can arise. People in large groups surrounded by people with similar tastes can do things they wouldn't do before. Some have personally attacked George Lucas and his handling of Episode I. Some have even attacked people for defending ce

 

If these people can get along fine and discuss things with each other without problems, then why do they need the separate threads? If nothing else, those two threads add to the illusion of a problem.

 

Jeff, nearly *anything* can be seen as "adding to the illusion of a problem." By that logic, I should lock this thread, since it perpetuates the "illusion" of a basher/gusher problem.

The forums have existed civilly for five years, with the only disputes stemming from irrepressible human nature and subjective experience; nothing is broken, why try to "fix" it?

 

There obviously was a problem that caused those threads to be formed in the first place. Those threads never needed to exist, it all should have been worked out with better moderation. Since we may now have that better moderation, I don't see why we need those threads.

 

Regardless of what we post Quixotic-Sith will attempt to contradict us. He uses excuses like your register date or that your inexperienced in the ways of this website. I'm sick of this attitude.

 

"Petitions" of this nature tend to attract sock-voting and people with little to no familiarty with the board in question or the issue as it arises.

Sounds like one of those "hypotheticals" that was mentioned earlier. The thread was closed after just 6 replies, which didn't really give anyone any opportunity to have their opinion heard. Like has been stated, all opinions are welcome in threads, right?

Further, the friction you speak of is no different than the friction found in the movie forums, the lit forums, the fanfic forums, etc. The difference is that all of the efforts to repair the TPM forum and create the atmosphere of civility we presently enjoy (which many here evidently have chosen to overlook) came from individuals affiliated with one of the two threads.

I'm not clear on this...are you saying only members of one thread have tried to create an atmosphere of civility? Care to name which one and what they've done? And are you saying that members of the other thread do nothing to help make the TPM forum a better place?

I tried to extend an "olive branch" of sorts some weeks back in the Basher's Sanctuary. I am pretty well known as a "gusher" because I love all the films. But I made a post addressing what I thought some of the weak points were of the prequels. My hope was to breed some kind of common ground between the two camps so there could be some more mutual respect between everyone. A couple individuals were gracious enough to follow my lead - Gloran being one of them. She followed suit by posting in the DF, listing some things she really liked about the PT.

I guess in my own dreamy way, I was hoping this trend would catch on with others and more common ground could be established, board-wide. It seems as if this has not happened.

If nothing else, those two threads add to the illusion of a problem.

I agree. The subjective nature of people and their opinions and posting ideas is a given in any thread anywhere. But seeing those two monster threads near the top of the page could easily send a message that there is a clear division in the forum, whichever side of the fence you fall on.

The AOTC forum has no such DFs or sanctuaries, yet there has been consistent moderation and excellent discussion without them. Why should TPM be any different? And if it is, why?

 

Those threads never needed to exist, it all should have been worked out with better moderation. Since we may now have that better moderation, I don't see why we need those threads.

No. None of the threads here at TF.N "needed" to exist, so that premise is right out. The premise of the threads is discussion with folks of a similar mindset, which fundamentally is not against the Terms of Service of TF.N. You're attempting to conflate several separate issues into one.

 

So what does Gusher and Basher mean to you? I think Basher means someone who attacks people's opinions for the hell of it (so why is the Basher in that Sanctuary title for?), and Gushers attack people that don't like the Preuqels (Notice that the defense force doesn't have the word gusher in it).

 

royalguard96-

Sounds like one of those "hypotheticals" that was mentioned earlier. The thread was closed after just 6 replies, which didn't really give anyone any opportunity to have their opinion heard. Like has been stated, all opinions are welcome in threads, right?

There is much more evidence to support this hypothetical than the others we discussed - e.g., this was one of the big concerns with the recent JC Election Game.

All opinions are certainly welcome; it's just a shame that some would be more informed than others, and that some will all come from the same users wearing different masks.

I'm not clear on this...are you saying only members of one thread have tried to create an atmosphere of civility? Care to name which one and what they've done? And are you saying that members of the other thread do nothing to help make the TPM forum a better place?

Quite the contrary. One of the people I would put forward as an excellent example of someone working for the betterment of the forum is strilo - who, incidentally, is the current major domo of both the AOTCDF and TPMDF.

He is but one of the people who has endeavored to make the TPM forum a better place, and you certainly are on that list. I would also add Darth-Stryphe (Current City Rep and ex-ACer), Daughter_Of_TheForce (current ACer), slavegirl, Malthus (Dark Lord of the JCC), myself, Oakessteve (current TPM moderator), cbjedi (former TPM moderator), Glorian, Darth-Seti, SomeRandomNerd, etc. The pattern that emerges is that these folks tended to be affiliated with one "ideology" or another, and wanted to bridge the gulf.

I don't want to shortchange the long list of folks who know what the TPM forum was and know what it is now and who have been responsible for the civility and camaraderie that is found there; it's just that the longest-lasting efforts have come from folks who started in one thread or another.


The subjective nature of people and their opinions and posting ideas is a given in any thread anywhere. But seeing those two monster threads near the top of the page could easily send a message that there is a clear division in the forum, whichever side of the fence you fall on.

But this is mere speculation - I didn't start posting in the Sanctuary until I had been here for a few months; the same is true for many others. The pattern that seemed to emerge is that people gravitated to each other in several threads because they agreed on several things; they then found threads filled with people with whom they agreed.

Large threads are simply large threads; I'm not concerned with perception, I'm concerned with behavior. Until someone demonstrates that the threads in question constitute a *behavioral* problem (as the TOS understands it - trolling, flaming, spamming), I'm not inclined to see them as an issue.

The AOTC forum has no such DFs or sanctuaries, yet there has been consistent moderation and excellent discussion without them. Why should TPM be any different? And if it is, why?

The AOTC forum was a *mess* following the release of the film. Flaming and trolling were rampant, and it took the rather draconian moderation of several of us to calm things down. I was vilified on the boards because I wanted to prevent the AOTC forum from getting worse than the TPM forum was *before* the Sanctuaries.

The forums are different because the moderators, posters, and atmospheres are different. We all support the same Terms of Service, and that is the only real commonality that can be required.

Learner-

So what does Gusher and Basher mean to you? I think Basher means someone who attacks people's opinions for the hell of it (so why is the Basher in that Sanctuary title for?), and Gushers attack people that don't like the Preuqels (Notice that the defense force doesn't have the word gusher in it).

And that is one definition of the term; unfortunately it's been my experience here that eve

 

I agree with YodaJeff on the fact of letting people discuss things calmly. But some of the people in the Sanctuary are just out of control. We are reporting that now as we should and its not working. As Jedi Learner has stated 5 people will not post there anymore. There is your proof to do something about the Bashers. Now, on the petition, I see that it would attract socks but the people who regular in TPM forum should have a voice against this flaming. If the socks are recognizable then ignore them, if not rule out the people who do care and use their decisions on this matter. I realize, we may have been far-fetched to ask to shut the Sanctuary down completely, all we want is for it to be civilized as Yoda Jeff has spoken of. If its taken care of in that form then I'll and maybe others will be satisfied.

 

All that can be done is to lock them... That won't change people's opinions of the films and the creators of them.
That won't change the opinions of people that grew up as SW fans and paid the money to see the PT.. it won't change the opinions of fans that grew up with SW S.E.'s and paid money to see the PT... it won't change the opinos of people that have only seen the PT!

I've seen the Sanctuaries as a way for people that agree to discuss their opinons and as "headquarters" for people to "storm" every few weeks or so.
One use is good and the other is bad... mind you, there are guilty individuals on both "sides" that have contributed to bad behavior.

I've called for them to be locked myself because it's no secret that people have taken comments in these Sanctuaries personally.
People also take comments from these Sanctuaries onto other discussion Boards in order to use them for their own discussion fodder and to insult members here.
Closing the Sanctuaries/Defense forces just means that individual "sides" won't be as easily tracked or identified by the those that take comments about SW personally (which seems to be the case most of the time).

I do realize that even if the Sacntuaries/Defense threads are closed... the "mentality" behind them won't disappear without removing every member of the respective groups.
That action only shows that dissenting opinons are not tolerated and that these Boards are only for promotion of SW/Lucasfilm and not discussion of them in any form.

Lock 'em and see what happens... it's only a message board, not a matter of life or death.

 

Listen. The only thing I want is the elimination of Bashers/Gushers guilds; as they only promote flamming and widing the gap between users.

 

"The AOTC forum was a *mess* following the release of the film. Flaming and trolling were rampant, and it took the rather draconian moderation of several of us to calm things down. I was vilified on the boards because I wanted to prevent the AOTC forum from getting worse than the TPM forum was *before* the Sanctuaries."

The AOTC forum wasn't a mess following the release of the film. The only time it could have used more moderation was for a few weeks prior to when I was brought on board. Other than that, the moderators always did a great job at keep the flaming and trolling to a minimum. I don't think flaming and trolling were ever "rampant" in that forum, and I've been visiting and posting in that forum since well before AOTC was released.

 

I agree with YodaJeff on the fact of letting people discuss things calmly. But some of the people in the Sanctuary are just out of control. We are reporting that now as we should and its not working. As Jedi Learner has stated 5 people will not post there anymore. There is your proof to do something about the Bashers. Now, on the petition, I see that it would attract socks but the people who regular in TPM forum should have a voice against this flaming. If the socks are recognizable then ignore them, if not rule out the people who do care and use their decisions on this matter. I realize, we may have been far-fetched to ask to shut the Sanctuary down completely, all we want is for it to be civilized as Yoda Jeff has spoken of. If its taken care of in that form then I'll and maybe others will be satisfied.

There is nothing to "be done" about the Bashers - we're here to moderate behavior not opinion. Further, I can name at least five people who have stayed here only *because* of the kinds of folks found in the forums. The bottom line is that there is anecdotal evidence to support both claims.

As to nothing being done, we're getting into a mushy area. I don't recall receiving PMs from you, so I can't make any explanations for action/inaction regarding specifics. What I can say is that there are some comments which aren't flaming, not every repercussion is public (every user here has a user notes section where bad netizenry can be recorded; some warnings are via PM), and sometimes moderators are fallible* and miss posts. That's why we depend on other posters to alert us to problems in the forums (the action buttons at the top of every page in a forum). If you link to the specific post in question, it makes our job that much easier to moderate effectively, which is all that we ask.

Concerning sock voting, it isn't so simple as to figure out who is and who isn't - some IPs are dynamic, which can make it hard to track down who is who (at times); some socks are obvious, some are users who are new but have lurked for a while, some are old users who are starting a new history at the JC because of problems associated with old names, etc. It's not quite so cut and dry, and part of the reason why internet petitions are difficult in general (we can't ask for the kind of security we would need to get an accurate assessment of the fanbase).

* Don't let this get around or we'll break your legs.

EDIT: Jeff, it seems we remember things differently - I ventured in there to discuss the film and my satisfaction/dissatisfaction with it, only to be vilified because I doubted the plausibility of the love story and didn't like the Yoda/Dooku duel. Every post of mine thereafter was hounded by folks who wanted me off the boards. This experience was not unique; I distinctly remember conversations with at least twenty other people (all over the TPM ideological spectrum) who had similar experiences. I didn't even venture in there again until after I had mod colors (which occurred many months *after* the films release) as it would deter the kind of flaming and flame-baiting I encountered. I was quite draconian with my modding - more than I was and am in the TPM forum - for which I was further vilified by militants who have sinced calmed down. Regulars of the TPM forum who were around for the flamewars of old voiced similar experiences and voiced a similar assessment of the forum.

I'm not invalidating your memory or experience of it, I'm simply presenting alternative histories.

 

"More evidence exists that these threads welcome new members and help them feel at home in the boards than that which claims they cause strife and dissention."

I can testify to that. The TPMDF was my home on the boards for 6 months, and I continue to post there nearly every day. I have made several friends there, including Oakessteve who is also a regular in the Bashers Sanc.


"The premise of the threads is discussion with folks of a similar mindset"

Exactly.

They don't discourage or ban participation of bashers in the TPMDF. But it isn't the appropriate place to post "Jar Jar sux!! Jake was teh crap!1! George is an idiot and Rick is a cowardly yes-man!." Lately, we are having a conversation about Ani and Padme's meeting. I posted that I wasn't impressed by Natalie's performance, and that is completely allowed. Hell, strilo agreed with me. It is hardly a "Only positive opinions allowed all the time" thread.

We have had labeled bashers come over and share things they like about TPM and participate in conversations about those things. And there are labeled gushers who have gone into the Bashers Sanc. to talk about what irked them in the film.


Flaming in the other threads in TPM was happening before the threads were made, and as I understand it, much more frequently. And I don't think anyone could seriously prove that either the Sanc or the DF are the reasons people are flaming each other or even forming rigid opinions about the films. You only need to watch the films to form an opinion on it. I doubt anyone is coming here without any knowledge of TPM or AOTC and they just absorb the opinions around them.

If a newbie flames, which I highly doubt would be something they learned in the Sanc or DF and were encouraged to do, the mods will handle it. They get banned until they learn that isn't how to behave here. But it was their own decision to flame, they made a conscious choice. They weren't brainwashed by their membership in a DF or the Sanc. Moreover, there isn't a DF or Sanc thread in the AOTC forum. The AOTCDF was forced out to prevent gusher/basher conflicts. And since we are having this discussion anyway, this suggests that banning these threads in that forum hasn't helped. So now you want to ban them in other forums too hoping maybe that will prevent flaming in AOTC?


"I think Basher means someone who attacks people's opinions for the hell of it... and Gushers attack people that don't like the Preuqels..."

That is just your definition though. That isn't the definition they had in mind when they named the thread. I consider myself a gusher, but I don't attack people who don't like the PT. I do what the word describes, I gush about TPM. I talk about how much I like it and what I like about it. That doesn't mean I only gush and it doesn't mean I target non-gushers to attack them.

The people who fit your definition, those who personally attack other people for disagreeing with their opinion of a or several films, they are breaking the TOS and they would be punished anyway. When you see it, point it out to a mod.


"The AOTC forum has no such DFs or sanctuaries, yet there has been consistent moderation and excellent discussion without them."

Maybe you weren't here for the release, but it was a nightmare in that forum. And the AOTCDF gained many members who were seeking a place to gather where flaming for opinions was absent.

If you disagree Jeff, that is just you. But I didn't post in AOTC much because I saw a lot of flaming and hostility, and I have talked to a LOT of other people who felt the same. Maybe you didn't think it was a problem, but a lot of other people did.


"But some of the people in the Sanctuary are just out of control."

Then point those individuals out in a PM to the mods. Do the same thing for offending gushers. The mods will deal with them. But banning the DF's or Sanctuary won't make those people stop or leave. They will

 

See, I was hoping these Bashers/gushers would drive themselves into extinction; but TPM has been out half a decade and they still are going strong as ever, widening the gap between users, so they need to be eleminated for the health of the boards.

 

The AOTC forum was a *mess* following the release of the film. Flaming and trolling were rampant, and it took the rather draconian moderation of several of us to calm things down. I was vilified on the boards because I wanted to prevent the AOTC forum from getting worse than the TPM forum was *before* the Sanctuaries.

Er... The AOTC forum actually had very good coverage after the film was released, and I would hardly call it a "mess." Yes, it did recieve a large influx of new members, and yes, some of the those members did not understand that trolling/flaming was against the rules. But it was hardly a mess.

 

Why couldn't the discussion on Ani and Padme's meeting go in a thread called, oh, I don't know, "Ani and Padme's meeting"? That's where I'd look if I wanted to discuss the meeting, not in the "TPM Defense Force" thread. If negative thoughts are allowed in the Defense Force, and positive thoughts are allowed in the Basher's Sanctuary, then I don't see why they are necessary.

 

um...

Gay-LenKenobi, if there were no Bashers Guilds, there would be no need for Defense Forces, would there?

 

Griff, I'll repost my reply to Jeff:

it seems we remember things differently - I ventured in there to discuss the film and my satisfaction/dissatisfaction with it, only to be vilified because I doubted the plausibility of the love story and didn't like the Yoda/Dooku duel. Every post of mine thereafter was hounded by folks who wanted me off the boards. This experience was not unique; I distinctly remember conversations with at least twenty other people (all over the TPM ideological spectrum) who had similar experiences. I didn't even venture in there again until after I had mod colors (which occurred many months *after* the films release) as it would deter the kind of flaming and flame-baiting I encountered. I was quite draconian with my modding - more than I was and am in the TPM forum - for which I was further vilified by militants who have sinced calmed down. Regulars of the TPM forum who were around for the flamewars of old voiced similar experiences and voiced a similar assessment of the forum.

I'm not invalidating your memory or experience of it, I'm simply presenting alternative histories.

Prophet-

PPOR. Please demonstrate how these threads foster and perpetuate a rift.

if there were no Bashers Guilds, there would be no need for Defense Forces, would there?

Er, no. Because the threads are not responses to other threads, but to different experiences of the films.

And Jeff, it seems you've missed the points of the threads in question. They are there to foster discussion, but discussion from a common slant. There is no yardstick by which a basher or gusher is measured - posts can praise elements of the film because the posters in there aren't carbon copies - we still have unique experiences and takes on the films.

 

Just look at your very own Bashers thread in TPM, Quix. Look how the Gushers invade the threads, and how it foesters a general sense of seperatness from your fellow posters that turn into *very* passionate and heated debates, complete with flamming. Your own Bashers Guil is quite representable of this situation.

 

Do you think the reactions people gave to you in the AOTC forum had anything to do with the fact that you may have been a known TPM "basher", and a regular in the "Basher's Sanctuary"?

Edit:
"They are there to foster discussion, but discussion from a common slant."

Why can't they be discussed with people who have a different slant? Wouldn't that help foster even better discussion?