Something that has been bothering me

You guys just don't get it. Qui-Gon frees Anakin. The result is Darth Vader and an evil Empire. Cliegg frees Shmi. The result: she's kidnapped, tortured and dies. The bottom line is, freeing slaves is all wrong. Had Anakin and Shmi not been freed, the Republic might still flourish, and i don't even dare to imagine what would happen, if all the slaves were freed. Padme was just wise enough to see this, so were the Jedi

 

"You guys just don't get it. Qui-Gon frees Anakin, the result is Darth Vader and an evil Empire."

Actually, it was Qui-Gon's death and years of Palpidious' mind manipulation that resulted in Anakin becoming Darth Vader and the Republic degenerating into the Empire.

Having Qui-Gon free Anakin had nothing to do with it.

"Cliegg frees Shmi. The result: she's kidnapped, torturted, and dies."

Whether if she was with Watto or Cliegg, Shmi would've died anyway.

"Had Anakin and Shmi not been freed, the Republic might still flourish."

No, it wouldn't because as long as Palpidious is still around, the Republic would still degenerate into the evil Empire, the Jedi will still be destroyed, and he would have a different Sith apprentice taking command of the imperial troops.

Freeing slaves wouldn't make a difference either way.

 

What exactly is the line though? I always thought QuiGon was referring to his earlier deal with Watto - and the latter's stubborn 'no pod is worth two slaves'.

The original deal was that Watto would get the winnings minus the parts for the hyperdrive. However, whatever he won was obviously wiped out in the debts that he had to pay off.

The only chance to free the Skywalkers rode on the outcome of the blue die and the race. Qui-gon had to choose Anakin in order to win his freedom.

And beside, if Qui-gon tried anything...Watto could have blown them BOTH up.

 

And beside, if Qui-gon tried anything...Watto could have blown them BOTH up.

Upon what exactly are you basing that?

 

At the dinner scene....

SHMI : All slaves have transmitters placed inside their bodies somewhere.
ANAKIN : I've been working on a scanner to try and locate them, but no luck.
SHMI : Any attempt to escape...
ANAKIN : ...and they blow you up...poof!

Basically, any attempt to "take" them, would have probabbbly ended in a quick death of Shimi and Anakin.

 

Yep, Qui-Gon's hands were completely tied. And Watto losing a slave by force would be a big deal to Jabba, not because Watto mattered but because the slave trade did matter. Qui-Gon forcing Watto to free Shmi would undermine that trade, and so therefore, the Hutt's lawyers would definately challenge the Republic on the grounds that Qui-Gon was acting outside of his jurisdiction, and they would win. Then Shmi would be returned to Watto, and most likely Anakin as well.

 

So, what, the consensus is Qui-Gon's hands were tied because we're to assume . . .

A) Watto has the balls to tell Jabba a Jedi stole his only slave after he refused to sell said slave and put that money towards what Watto is apparently going to owe Jabba's money-lenders.

B) Jabba doesn't eat Watto and is instead so moved by his plight he sends Bib Fortuna to Coruscant to appeal to the Senate and/or Court.

C) The Republic government not only listens to Bib's plees in a timely fashion, but sides with him and acts to censure the Jedi and return Jabba's associate's slave with a heart-felt appology when slavery is an anathema to them and in the face of inaction when an entire world actually of the Republic (Naboo) is threatened by invasion.

D) The Jedi Council gives a ranat's behind what the Senate says on the matter and actually reprimands Qui-Gon.

E) Qui-Gon starts caring one midichlorian about the opinion of the Jedi Council.

How about, Qui-Gon's written as a jack@$$ on Tatooine and THAT's why his hands are tied? Evidence:

1) He believes that on the entire planet of Tatooine, only Watto has the parts he needs. No further investigation, just takes the word of someone who has everything to gain by lying about this and nothing to lose. Also someone he has just tried to mentally manipulate care of Mind Trick.

2) He ignores the fact that they could sell Artoo, the Queen's wardrobe, the crew's weapons or even Jar-Jar (as Sarlaac bait) for a pretty penny.

3) He doesn't even consider that by selling their limited edition Royal Naboo starship, they could buy at least one crappier, yet hypercapable ship good enough to get them to Coruscant or even just hire transport al a Han Solo ANH-style.

4) Thinks he's being so clever with Watto concerning the podrace, but his deal makes absolutely no logical sense.

4a) The entry fee is comparable to the RN starship. With around sixteen or so entrants, that's a crap-load of money. More, if Jabba's putting up a stand alone prize on top of that. But let's assume, since it's never mentioned explicitely, that he is not.

4b) If the prize money from the race were split 50/50 as Watto suggests initially, Qui-Gon gets enough money to buy seven or eight brand new starships. Since Watto was willing to risk a slave for a podracer, Qui-Gon could afford to buy BOTH the boy and his mother and not screw over Watto in the bargain. This would leave more than enough left over for the hyperdrive parts, a haircut for Obi-Wan, acting lessons for Padme, Anakin, Panaka and a coffin for Jar Jar.

And all that's ignoring the 10 YEAR gap where no one thought to go get Shmi after the fact.

Funny how five minutes after entering Mos Eisley in ANH, Obi-Wan finds potential transport off planet, brokers a deal and gets the money to pull it off. Guess Qui-Gon should have taken Obi-Wan in TPM and left Jar Jar in a shallow grave -er -on the ship.

 

3) He doesn't even consider that by selling their limited edition Royal Naboo starship, they could buy at least one crappier, yet hypercapable ship good enough to get them to Coruscant or even just hire transport al a Han Solo ANH-style.

LOL! That's brilliant!

 

I think it all boils down to the ten year gap. If there wasn't such a gap (say, AOTC takes place only a few months after TPM, or even a year!) and the galaxy was already in turmoil (in other words, the Clone Wars was already raging at the end of TPM, massive battles everywhere, civilian travelling limited, etc) then it might be conceivable that everyone was too busy to save Shmi, or they can't get to Tatooine due to the war and all (a blockade, maybe?).

A ten year gap in peace ensured that no one had an excuse, especially Padme.

 

I think if anything, Anakin could have asked for her freedom, but since he's going for Jedi training (hopefully as he says to Amidala), Padme tells him "her heart goes out to him". Later in AOTC Padme tells Anakin "...I thought it was forbidden to love?".

She seems quite clear (even after ten years) on what Jedi are supposed to do, thus cannot and should not free Shmi. But when Anakin wants to go to help his mother, Padme at this point is already falling in love with him and goes with him to keep him from trouble if the Jedi know what he is doing.

My look at it

 

She seems quite clear (even after ten years) on what Jedi are supposed to do, thus cannot and should not free Shmi.

See this is just another of those wild assumptions. Why should the Jedi rules forbid the freedom of Shmi?

At the end of the day, Shmi's situation reflects the simple fact that nobody cares about her... not even her own son.

 

"What really bugs me is the indifference that the current Queen and Sio Bible show to Anakin in AOTC. He was the big war hero and they don't even show the slightest recognition. I hope Naboo is the first to be crushed under Vader's boot for their insolence."

same goes for Padme's family.

 

"The Jedi have no jourisdiction on Tattoine, as explained in the film."

Yet they did have jurisdiction on Naboo which was also in the outer rim.

 

I think the term everyone's looking for is 'bad storytelling'.

Unless this gaping plothole is filled in Episode III, this type of illogic will always cause the PT to be a derided unbelievable un-epic.

 

" "What really bugs me is the indifference that the current Queen and Sio Bible show to Anakin in AOTC. He was the big war hero and they don't even show the slightest recognition. I hope Naboo is the first to be crushed under Vader's boot for their insolence."

same goes for Padme's family."

Excuse me, but noone on Naboo is aware that it was Anakin that blew up the Droid Control Ship. Not even the pilots themselves knew judging from the quotes below:

Female pilot- "What's that? It's blowing up from the inside."

Ric Olie-"We didn't hit it."

Black pilot-"Look, one of ours from the main hull."

Besides, Anakin isn't going to harm them just because they lack the knowledge that we viewers have.

"Yet they did have jurisdiction on Naboo which was also from the outer rim."

Only because Naboo is a part of the Republic since Senator Palpatine is from there.

 

1) He believes that on the entire planet of Tatooine, only Watto has the parts he needs. No further investigation, just takes the word of someone who has everything to gain by lying about this and nothing to lose. Also someone he has just tried to mentally manipulate care of Mind Trick.

after meeting anakin, qui-gon decided to trust in the will of the force. while there couldve been other dealers with the parts he needed, they had no way to buy it. faced with this quandary, qui-gon believed that the force was leading him down a path where he could attain the parts despite their financial shortcomings. he followed the will of the force which ultimately proved successful and them some(anakin).

2) He ignores the fact that they could sell Artoo, the Queen's wardrobe, the crew's weapons or even Jar-Jar (as Sarlaac bait) for a pretty penny.

'a few containers of supplies... the queen's wardrobe maybe, but not enough for you to barter with. not in the amounts youre talking about'
- obi-wan on the matter

3) He doesn't even consider that by selling their limited edition Royal Naboo starship, they could buy at least one crappier, yet hypercapable ship good enough to get them to Coruscant or even just hire transport al a Han Solo ANH-style.

to qui-gon, that wasnt even an option. and rightfully so. they needed to get off tatooine as soon as possible. selling your ship(a limited edition ROYAL naboo starship would surely have incited questions) and looking for another one would give you twice the headache! they were having a hard enough time just looking for a simple hyperdrive. and could you imagine trying to find a transport for a group of naboo soldiers, a queen, her entourage, a gungan, and 2 jedi? WITHOUT drawing the attention of the scum and villiany that reside on tatooine. qui-gon's made the best and right decision in their situation.

4) Thinks he's being so clever with Watto concerning the podrace, but his deal makes absolutely no logical sense.

4a) The entry fee is comparable to the RN starship. With around sixteen or so entrants, that's a crap-load of money. More, if Jabba's putting up a stand alone prize on top of that. But let's assume, since it's never mentioned explicitely, that he is not.


4b) If the prize money from the race were split 50/50 as Watto suggests initially, Qui-Gon gets enough money to buy seven or eight brand new starships. Since Watto was willing to risk a slave for a podracer, Qui-Gon could afford to buy BOTH the boy and his mother and not screw over Watto in the bargain. This would leave more than enough left over for the hyperdrive parts, a haircut for Obi-Wan, acting lessons for Padme, Anakin, Panaka and a coffin for Jar Jar.

the prize money would not neccessarily be equal to the total amount paid by the entrants. jabba still has to make a profit, no? im sure the prize money was a fixed number, regardless of the number of racers. it was probabaly closer to 3 or 4 times the entrance fee, not 16 times. and sure, he COULD have bought a pre-race anakin and shmi with the prize money. but do you think watto would sell them AFTER the race? especailly if everything goes well, and anakin wins? watto probably wouldnt sell his new cash cow for ALL the prize money. qui-gon had to give watto an offer he couldnt refuse in order to secure anakin's freedom BEFORE the race.


and now, back on-topic...

concerning the matter of shmi. whether he made it known to the jedi & padme or not, i always assumed that anakin was the supervisor and had the say regarding shmi's fate. he said it himself, HE was coming back to free her. he didnt say, 'ill have the jedi come back for you,' or 'as soon as the opportunity comes up, ill have you freed.' no, it sounded like anakin was saying, 'when im ready, ill come back for you.' possibly, to come back and free ALL the slaves including his mother and friends. it sounds a little arrogant, but thats ani in a nutshell.

the problem with the jedi or the queen freeing shmi is that it doesnt really solve anything, unless you

 

This isn't an uncovered plot point. Qui-Gon said he tried to free Shmi, but Watto wouldn't have it. He was upset that he lost so much on the race, and he blamed Qui-Gon for "tricking" him.

So while they had enough money from the pod racer they sold to Sebulba, Watto wasn't willing to sell her.

 

Excuse me, but noone on Naboo is aware that it was Anakin that blew up the Droid Control Ship. Not even the pilots themselves knew judging from the quotes below:

Female pilot- "What's that? It's blowing up from the inside."

Ric Olie-"We didn't hit it."

Black pilot-"Look, one of ours from the main hull."

For Anakin to be present at the award ceremony it had to be known that he was involved in the destruction of the control ship, unless they just happen to let Obi-wan babysit in front of everyone.

to qui-gon, that wasnt even an option. and rightfully so. they needed to get off tatooine as soon as possible. selling your ship(a limited edition ROYAL naboo starship would surely have incited questions) and looking for another one would give you twice the headache! they were having a hard enough time just looking for a simple hyperdrive. and could you imagine trying to find a transport for a group of naboo soldiers, a queen, her entourage, a gungan, and 2 jedi? WITHOUT drawing the attention of the scum and villiany that reside on tatooine. qui-gon's made the best and right decision in their situation.

Judging from the deal Ben made with Han Solo in ANH, a nice payment and three little letters could have gotten them to Coruscant, "No Questions Asked." Tatooine is a place run by money, even scum and villainy will keep their mouths shut if the price is right.

 

This isn't an uncovered plot point. Qui-Gon said he tried to free Shmi, but Watto wouldn't have it. He was upset that he lost so much on the race, and he blamed Qui-Gon for "tricking" him.

So while they had enough money from the pod racer they sold to Sebulba, Watto wasn't willing to sell her.

but it becomes a plot point when NO one close to anakin attempted to free her in the 10 yrs between ep1 & 2. since we know watto did eventually sell her, it wasnt like he was unwilling to sell her to anyone, ever.

Judging from the deal Ben made with Han Solo in ANH, a nice payment and three little letters could have gotten them to Coruscant, "No Questions Asked." Tatooine is a place run by money, even scum and villainy will keep their mouths shut if the price is right

but thats a whole nother situation in itself. it was just ben, luke, and 2 driods. not too suspicous. almost any ship wouldve sufficed. qui-gon's situation is different, he would have to find passage for like 20 people. that could mean multiple ships... and let's not forget, luke was leaving everything behind. trust me, if obi-wan had to deal with luke's handmaidens, his wardrobe, his entourage... he wouldnt have gone the 'buying passage' route.

besides, it was hard enough just to convince panaka to land on tattooine. i dont see any cooperation from the nubians had qui-gon decided that they needed to hide the queen in some pirate's ship to make the trip to coruscant.

 

For the most part the Jedi were dis-interest 3rd party. The code of the Jedi Knight does not appear to right the wrongs or make the unjust, just as they are not compelled to free salves unless they appear to have something of value or bare witness and testify to invasions/occupation of planets. Some would argue, this display of so called heroism makes Episode One a great movie, and would be considered blasephmy so say otherwise.

But, it is understandable why some would be bothered by the Jedi not using their power to help those who can't helped themselves.

 

but thats a whole nother situation in itself. it was just ben, luke, and 2 driods. not too suspicous. almost any ship wouldve sufficed. qui-gon's situation is different, he would have to find passage for like 20 people. that could mean multiple ships... and let's not forget, luke was leaving everything behind. trust me, if obi-wan had to deal with luke's handmaidens, his wardrobe, his entourage... he wouldnt have gone the 'buying passage' route.

besides, it was hard enough just to convince panaka to land on tattooine. i dont see any cooperation from the nubians had qui-gon decided that they needed to hide the queen in some pirate's ship to make the trip to coruscant.

In regards to the wardrobe, that would obviously have to go. I thought it was rather stupid that the Queen kept the wardrobe when Qui-gon was out there trying to negotiate with Watto over something "a little more real." The maidens' outfits, Panaka's uniform, the Queen's wardrobe, if they'd sold all that and taken to simpler clothing, not only would they have disguises, but actual money.

As for the passage route, I doubt the pirate could care less about the people he'd be chartering. If they meet a freight pilot, that right there settles the space issue since I doubt they'd all be scrunched up in an X-Wing or something. Twenty people and a droid (which they could have sold) isn't such a big envoy, they could have all fit in the Millenium Falcon; they certainly fit in the royal cruiser, and that wasn't a very big ship either. They could have easily sold the chrome limited edition, payed for transport and cooperation from the pilot, and gotten to Coruscant.

And I doubt Qui-gon would have cared as to what Panaka would have said, since they wouldn't be stranded on a dangerous planet like sitting ducks anymore, they'd at least be moving towards Coruscant aboard an unlikely vessel. They wouldn't have been spotted by the Sith, that's for sure, and the Federation would be looking for a bright, shiny ship, not some beat up old clunker out of Tatooine.

 

Last time I checked, Qui-Gon had no problem revealing the fact that he was in possession of a Nubian Royal starship. Not only that, he shows it to the first junk dealer he bumps into on a planet run by criminals. How is that any less dangerous than selling the damn thing?

He then attempts to mentally manipulate the first alien he bumps into. The alien immediately identifies him as a Jedi. Oops. Guess ol' Qui got a mishap on his Species knowledge roll.

A slave boy recognizes the device on QG's belt as a 'lasersword' or rather lightsabre. If a slave, Force-sensitive or no, can instantly identify a Jedi's weapon at a glance, I bet ya so could just about everyone else on Tatooine, even random Sand People.

And I guess Obi-Wan has become the authority on the royal evening wear market on Tatooine. Amidala had glowing jewels, silver, gold and who knows what else all over her various outfits. That equals money.

Artoo, though a great little guy, is still worth some hard cash. As are the weapons of the guardsmen and any jewlery of the handmaidens.

Jar Jar remains prime Sarlaac bait.

Even if Jabba took half of each entry fee, which he doesn't really need to do as the big boss in control of loansharking and deal enforcement, that's a crap load of cash. More than enough to split with Watto and buy the boy and his mother. Better yet, make the deal Watto keeps the winnings, pod and 20,000 'worthless' Republic credits and Qui gets the slaves and hyperdrive parts. If they lose, Watto can keep the pod and their ship.

As a side note, those Republic credits are only 'worthless' if you try to spend them on Tatooine. We're to believe no one from that hive of scum and villainy is going or will ever go into Republic space?

Tell, you what, Qui...I'm a smuggler camped out on Tatooine waiting on a gig SMUGGLING crap into the Republic. I'll give you a 2-1 exchange on your Republic creds for some Tat scrip. Deal? Thought so.

Better yet, I'll take those 20,000 creds and SMUGGLE the lot of you past the TF and back to Republic space. Why? Well, let's see, Han Solo jumps on a milk run with Imperial entanglements for LESS than this amount without a second thought. You think someone 40 years in the past isn't going to look at a similar deal with the same eye? Coke used to be a nickle, you know? So think what 20,000 dollars used to be.

And guess what, if QG told Panaka to shut the hell up and get in the back of some smuggler's frieghter, that's just what he would have done. Why? Panaka is protective, not a complete moron. Or so one would think of the head of the Queen's Royal Guard. Freighters hold TONS of cargo. They can hold 20 people easy. 20,000 credits and a shoehorn, mine can hold a hundred.

Movie logic is not sacrosant simply because LFL slapped a Star Wars logo on it. TPM taken as a whole is evidence enough GL can make mistakes, big and small.

 

I don't see a problem. We have one more movie left and everything is fitting into place.

 

"For Anakin to be present at the award ceremony it had to be known that he was involved in the destruction of the control ship, unless they just happen to let Obi-wan babysit in front of everyone."

The same can be said about Obi-wan being invited even though he wasn't acknowledged for taking out Amidala's attacker.

The only ones that knew about his and Anakin's accomplishments is Palpatine.

 

In regards to the wardrobe, that would obviously have to go. I thought it was rather stupid that the Queen kept the wardrobe when Qui-gon was out there trying to negotiate with Watto over something "a little more real." The maidens' outfits, Panaka's uniform, the Queen's wardrobe, if they'd sold all that and taken to simpler clothing, not only would they have disguises, but actual money.

obviously, what they had was not enough. other than the queen's wardrobe, there was nothing else of value. sure, you could sell the shirt off panaka's back, but for how much? not enough for them to barter with, not the the amounts theyre talking about. and i hope youre not suggesting that they trade the clothes to watto for the hyperdrive. a) watto is junk dealer, sure he needs something a little more real, but i dont think he would take the queens wardrobe. b) the hyperdrive costs more than some starships alone. i doubt the wardrobe wouldve fetched nearly that much.

As for the passage route, I doubt the pirate could care less about the people he'd be chartering. If they meet a freight pilot, that right there settles the space issue since I doubt they'd all be scrunched up in an X-Wing or something. Twenty people and a droid (which they could have sold) isn't such a big envoy, they could have all fit in the Millenium Falcon; they certainly fit in the royal cruiser, and that wasn't a very big ship either. They could have easily sold the chrome limited edition, payed for transport and cooperation from the pilot, and gotten to Coruscant.

And I doubt Qui-gon would have cared as to what Panaka would have said, since they wouldn't be stranded on a dangerous planet like sitting ducks anymore, they'd at least be moving towards Coruscant aboard an unlikely vessel. They wouldn't have been spotted by the Sith, that's for sure, and the Federation would be looking for a bright, shiny ship, not some beat up old clunker out of Tatooine.

why would you want to make things more difficult? qui-gon's not an idiot. if it aint broke, he aint gonna fix it. their ship was fine minus the hyper-drive. why bother with trying to sell the ship AND THEN going out and looking for passage when all they needed was a hyperdrive? if they are having this much trouble looking for a simple part, do you really think it wouldve been easier to sell a limited edition ship, find and negotiate passage for 20+ ppl, all the while masking their intentions and purpose? really now... im not saying that they couldnt have done that, its just so much easier to buy the darn hyperdrive, install it and leave in a ship that you own and have control over. limit the variables, and your chances of succeeding are much greater.




Last time I checked, Qui-Gon had no problem revealing the fact that he was in possession of a Nubian Royal starship. Not only that, he shows it to the first junk dealer he bumps into on a planet run by criminals. How is that any less dangerous than selling the damn thing?

i didnt say that it was dangerous to sell the ship. i just said that it was counter-productive. were you suggesting that they sell the ship in order to buy the hyperdrive? besides watto is a small-time junk dealer. he didnt pose a threat. it wouldve been fishier had qui-gon refused to show watto what he needed.

He then attempts to mentally manipulate the first alien he bumps into. The alien immediately identifies him as a Jedi. Oops. Guess ol' Qui got a mishap on his Species knowledge roll.

actually, boss nass didnt recognize him as jedi. but if youre talking about watto, then we wasnt sold either. i believe the line was, 'what? do you think youre some kind of jedi, waving your hand around like that?'

A slave boy recognizes the device on QG's belt as a 'lasersword' or rather lightsabre. If a slave, Force-sensitive or no, can instantly identify a Jedi's weapon at a glance, I bet ya so could just about everyone else on Tatooine, even random Sand People.

whats your point? of course, im sure jedi are very recognizable. they are the de