Something that, I think, makes Episode I better- JUST a theory!

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith (Non-Spoilers)' started by Pooja, Jun 17, 2002.

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  1. Pooja Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2002
    star 6
    Yeah. This is about Episode I.

    But...

    I feel that it does belong here. It's how, I think, Episode III will help out Episode I, even moreso than Episode II did.

    Yeah, get ready for another exciting thread with the illustrious Pooja, king of starting debates and flames. :p Remember: This is JUST speculation/theorizing. If you don't agree, fine, but please don't go on a rant on how I'm wrong and all this. This is serious, mature discussion. No kids allowed.
    ;)

    Anyway.

    First, let's take a look at Episode II, when Obi-Wan was in the Geonosis Captivation Unit. Dooku stated that he wished Qui-Gon were there. Obi-Wan said that Qui-Gon wouldn't help/join Dooku. Then, Dooku rubbed off that statement. "Don't be so sure..." Dooku said in a serious tone.

    This leads me to strongly believe that, as I've said millions of times on these forums, that Qui-Gon wasn't for the "good guy" team.

    Okay, now that we've got that underfoot, I'll proceed.

    Qui-Gon, on Tatooine, seemed a bit...rushed? Yes, I thought so too. He was constantly in a hurry. In a rush. I mean, he managed to help win a podrace and free a slave over the course of two days. That's astonishing. He was clealry anxious to get Anakin off Tatooine, and escape.

    "I tried to free your mother, Ani, but Watto wouldn't have it."

    BS. I know that Qui-Gon brought her up when he was betting with Watto, but we all know Qui-Gon. If he REALLY wanted to free Shmi, he would have been more persuasive. But he wasn't.

    "No pod is worth two slaves; not by a long shot!"

    "The boy then."

    Weird. Qui-Gon talked Watto into letting Anakin race, he talked Watto into GIVING UP Anakin, who was GREAT at fixing things (obviously a good slave), he talked Watto into a lot of things you couldn't normally talk someone like Watto into doing. Clearly, Qui-Gon is persuasive. If he wanted I'm sure he could have at least tried a bit harder to free his mother. But no. He was in a hurry and frankly, trying to free Shmi would slow them down.

    "Qui-Gon sir, wait, I'm tired!"

    My BIGGEST point. Why were they RUNNING to begin with? I'll tell you why. Qui-Gon KNEW a Sith was after them. He knew- I mean, it's so obvious. Why else would Qui-Gon rush to get off Tatooine? Okay, you could argue here that he was trying to get to Coruscant ASAP, which is also true.

    This also explains those faces Qui-Gon gave Maul during BOTH saberfights. Qui-Gon, I think, recognized Maul. I think Qui-Gon knew of Sidious and everything that was going on.

    It just makes so much sense to me.

    This ties into Episode III, because we will find out if this is in fact true or not in Episode III. Episode II's introduction of Dooku, and Dooku being Qui-Gon's master, just did it for me.

    As you could see in the relationship between Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan, an apprentice is very close to his master. This case being true, Qui-Gon was close to Dooku. This, I think, means that Qui-Gon knew of Dooku's future intentions. Like I said, it just makes too much sense.

    Qui-Gon was Dooku's apprentice.

    Dooku is playing for the bad team.

    Dooku left the Council shortly before Qui-Gon's death.

    Dooku was obviously in league with Sidious/Trade Fed for quite some time. This ALSO means that, if Maul was Sidious' apprentice, and Dooku was in league with Sidious- thus giving Qui-Gon a good chance of KNOWING Darth Maul. Also, notice how Maul actually focused more on taking down Qui-Gon than Obi-Wan. Why, I don't know to be honest. It just seemed like there was a connection between Jinn and Maul.

    I hope that at least some of you will agree, but if not, that's fine. Maybe this belongs in a different forum. Speaking of which, I'll explain why I didn't want this in the TPM forum-

    Bahers 'r' Us.
    :p

    If I would have posted this there, all I would have heard was "OH JUST ANOTHER TPM GUSHER AND ANOTHER FEEBLE ATTEMPT TO MAKE TPM LOOK GOOD" and stuff like that. I want nice, mature debate without the idiocy and sarcasm, PLUS it does kinda relate to Episode III, and I don't k
  2. thenink Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2002
    star 2
    YOU GUSHER!!!

    (Just kiddin' :p)

    Yes, yes, YES!!! This is what I've been saying since I left the theater after AOTC! Qui-gon is bad and Qui-gon IS SIFO-DYAS!!!

    Also, another thing I just thought of: In TPM, when QG and OB1 arrive on COruscant and they go see the Jedi council, how come Qui-gon right away assumes that his attacker on Tattoine was a 'Sith Lord'? Remember, the Sith have been supposedly extinct for a thousand years! Why, after all this time, would Qui-gon quickly state that it was a 'Sith Lord' that attacked him? WHY: Because Qui-gon KNEW it was a Sith because of all the reasons just stated above!

    Good post pooja! :)
  3. DarthTerrious Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2001
    star 5
    Sorry I dont think Qui-Gon is a bad guy in all this, not by a long shot. In what you're saying desn that worsen TPM somehow?

    What makes TPM better is that the whole TF taking over planets and being forceful was part of a much bigger plan. Qui-Gon has now got some real background to him. I'm too tired to right now o give a full explanation but i'll post something tomorrow.


    EDIT: He knew it was a sith lord because there are only Jedi and Sith in the GFFA. Really you could quote anything to back up your "theory" but that doesn't mean its right.

    And Qui-Gon could not have been Sifo-Dyas because Sifo-Dyas was a different Jedi and died BEFORE TPM and Qui-Gon was too preoccupied with Anakin and the Naboo conflict. The creation of the clone army was done after the battle of Naboo, as is my estimation and understanding.
  4. Pooja Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2002
    star 6
    Also, another thing I just thought of: In TPM, when QG and OB1 arrive on COruscant and they go see the Jedi council, how come Qui-gon right away assumes that his attacker on Tattoine was a 'Sith Lord'? Remember, the Sith have been supposedly extinct for a thousand years! Why, after all this time, would Qui-gon quickly state that it was a 'Sith Lord' that attacked him? WHY: Because Qui-gon KNEW it was a Sith because of all the reasons just stated above!

    Another feasible point.

    Sorry I dont think Qui-Gon is a bad guy in all this, not by a long shot. In what you're saying desn that worsen TPM somehow?

    If that's your opinion, cool. I respect that. At least you didn't go off on me or bury me into the ground. That's exactly the type of disagreeing I like.
    :)

    EDIT: He knew it was a sith lord because there are only Jedi and Sith in the GFFA. Really you could quote anything to back up your "theory" but that doesn't mean its right.

    Never said it was right I haven't seen all three Episodes yet. I don't know what's right and wrong. Purely speculation. I'm not like other people who think they know everything.

    That's what I think though.

  5. MoronDude Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2000
    star 6
    The new poll on starwars.com has the question: Who ordered the clones. Most of the choices were obvious: Dooku, Sidious, Sifo-Dyas... but then they had "Qui-Gon Jinn", that made me think, "Why did they add him, there was no big clues, so it seems like it came out of nowhere." Now this thread cleared some things up.


    Also, Qui-Gon was a master, who was not on the council:
    Obi-Wan "If you would just follow the code, you would be on the Council."

    Since Qui-Gon wasn't on the council, they had to settle with a Jedi Knight named Ki Adi Mundi.

    YODA "Qui-Gon's defiance I sence in you... need that you do not."

    Plus, Qui-Gon didn't dissapear when he died.

  6. Pooja Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2002
    star 6
    Well, that really helps out my argument now doesn't it?

    Maybe. But, that doesn't mean that Qui-Gon really done it...it sure does add fuel to the fire though.
  7. DarthTerrious Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2001
    star 5
    Well to be honest Qui-Gon isn't a bad guy. He may stretch the rules but he doesn't cross over them all and backstab his fellow Jedi, and his apprentice at that.

    Also with the Watto situation, he wasn't so much as persuasive as bargaining. He couldn't mind trick the toydarian to give him both Anakin & Shmi. He tried but only got the bet for Anakin.
    And another thing, when you see Anakins farewell with Shmi in their hovel you cannot tell me that his show of concern towards Shmi was fake. He seemed genuine in his concern and seemed genuinely aggrieved at not freeing her as well.


  8. Pooja Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2002
    star 6
    And another thing, when you see Anakins farewell with Shmi in their hovel you cannot tell me that his show of concern towards Shmi was fake. He seemed genuine in his concern and seemed genuinely aggrieved at not freeing her as well.

    Well maybe he just feels guilty for what he's doing? Sure he may not be like all evil like Maul or Sidious, but he could be playing for the wrong team, but still feel like he is doing something wrong.

    That's also a common theme in Star Wars as well.
  9. KaaShamau Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2000
    star 4
    I got the impression that Qui-Gon didn't really think much of serving the bureaucracy, but rather the living force (a trait he got from his master?) I don't think this makes him 'evil' though.

    Good ideas.
  10. DarthTerrious Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2001
    star 5
    I think that poll is just capitalising on the fact that some people would have thought that Qui-Gon was Sifo-Dyas.

    But truely I dont like where this thread is headed (and because I'm stubborn and feeling ignorant) its just not the right direction. Although you've certainly made me wake up and think.

    But Lucas did say a while back that "You wouldnt know who to trust in the PT." Or something like that.

    But I do think you kind of neglect that Qui-Gon at that time was training Obi-Wan, I seriously doubt he could have had time to order the clone army or know anything that was following. After all he followed the Living Force.
  11. Pooja Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2002
    star 6
    Well no, I don't necessarily think he is "evil" like I said above. I just think he chose the wrong path, and he regrets doing so.

    Again, I want to thank everyone for being mature about this. It brings warm feelings to my heart.
  12. clawszin Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2002
    perhaps Qui-Gonn was put on the poll just to make people in this forum think things that aren't possible.
  13. Pooja Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2002
    star 6
    Maybe so. But assumption is the key word here.
  14. DarthTerrious Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2001
    star 5
    I also noted that either you Pooja or someone said that Qui-Gon didn't disappear. Well that is going to hopefully be sorted out in Episode 3. And episodenone has a good theory on it so check that out.
    But just because he didnt dissapear again doesn't not mean he was bad or anything.
  15. Malkuth_Toltec Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2002
    star 1
    It shows a lot of thought, but I would have to say, although not ruling it out, there are lots of flaws with the theory.

    Qui Gon did seem rushed and busy throughout the Tatooine sequence and for this I have no explanation. He has no reason to rush so much, he does not really care what the queen thinks and Neeson's performance shows quite a lot of contempt for the will of other people. Qui Gon thinks he is right all the time and that others are wrong when they offer alternatives. This is not an evil trait, but is a clear sign of him being part of a line of padawan and masters that is "faulty" like a dodgy genetic code. Qui Gon was not bad, but he obviously had rebellious tendencies and a false sense of his own importance.

    However, I am sure Qui Gon will play a part in what unfolds in Episode III, his role has not yet been fully arched. Not to mention the explanation for his lack of a disappearence. (Perhaps a jedi must learn to focus his energies when he dies to leave a trace of himself behind? Qui Gon fought and had no time to prepare himself as Yoda and Obi Wan did)

    There are still some loose threads to tie up, but I am sure we will get answers to the most niggling ones of which this is clearly one.

    BTW, I love TPM and prefer to watch it over ANH and RotJ. TPM bashers are entitled to their opinions, but i think it is clearly themost ambitious of the films. So much to say. I appreciate the effort to try and meld so many different plot strands together although the execution could have been better.
  16. thenink Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2002
    star 2
    For the record, I don't think Qui-gon is 'evil' either, I too think he made some bad choices.

    Now about QG being dead before the order of the clones: The order for the clones was put in 10 years before OB1 visited Kamino. 10 years had passed since the events of TPM and Qui-gon died. That's not to say that Qui-gon (as Syfo-Dyas) could have put the order in for the clones BEFORE Ob1 and him travelled to Naboo to negotiate the trade blockade.
  17. Pooja Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2002
    star 6
    I also noted that either you Pooja or someone said that Qui-Gon didn't disappear. Well that is going to hopefully be sorted out in Episode 3.

    Not me. :)



    It shows a lot of thought, but I would have to say, although not ruling it out, there are lots of flaws with the theory.

    Yes, I'll agree there are flaws. But in my opinion, I think there is more proof than flaws. I will admit that I could have MORE proof, but i'm just like that. :p

    However, I am sure Qui Gon will play a part in what unfolds in Episode III, his role has not yet been fully arched. Not to mention the explanation for his lack of a disappearence.

    Bingo. I never thought Qui-Gon was EVIL per se, but I do think there is a lot to him that we don't know yet. Well, obviously.

    BTW, I love TPM and prefer to watch it over ANH and RotJ. TPM bashers are entitled to their opinions, but i think it is clearly themost ambitious of the films. So much to say. I appreciate the effort to try and meld so many different plot strands together although the execution could have been better.

    Agreed. What people don't see is just under thier noses, but they don't see it because they are too worried over what aspect o bash next.

    Had to touch on that, sorry, let's keep this a basher/gusher free thread. ;)

    Now about QG being dead before the order of the clones: The order for the clones was put in 10 years before OB1 visited Kamino. 10 years had passed since the events of TPM and Qui-gon died. That's not to say that Qui-gon (as Syfo-Dyas) could have put the order in for the clones BEFORE Ob1 and him travelled to Naboo to negotiate the trade blockade.

    Exactly. We just have estimated dates; we don't know the exact date the clones were made.
  18. PloKloon1138 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 5, 2001
    star 4
    Great post Pooja. Very interesting stuff.

    And Jinn = Sifo-Dyas? I don't necessarily agree that will happen, but it sure is very interesting. :D
  19. Pooja Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2002
    star 6
    Everything about SW, to me, is interesting. :)
  20. PloKloon1138 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 5, 2001
    star 4
  21. Pooja Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2002
    star 6
    (no message, for it was too retarded for words) :p
  22. DarthTerrious Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2001
    star 5
    This all really connects to the fact that Qui-Gon was Dooku's apprentice.

    What Dooku's entrance into the Star Wars saga is really is about is where Qui-Gon go that rebellious, independent streak from and why he was at odds with the council.
    And its easily assumed, although fair to you its a theory, that possibly Qui-Gon was in cohorts with his former Master and even was included in the plot to create the clone army.

    But Qui-Gon had not been delving into Sith Holocrons gaining evil power. His former Master had done that and his beliefs were becoming impurer all the time. While Qui-Gon was a firm believer in everything he served from the Republic to the Jedi, he was not corrupted by Sith Teachings or any such evil.

    In TPM the reason Qui-Gon is at a seemingly obvious hurry is that he is aware that the TF may well be trying to go after the Queen, he needs to get the ship parts and get to Coruscant as fast as he can. It is the will of the Force which allows him to meet Anakin.
    Again its the Will of the Force that Anakin, alone, be taken from Tatooine to go to Coruscant because he is the Chosen One. And being the dutiful Jedi and believer in the Jedi that he is he firmly believes he has found the prophesied one.
    And why was he in a hurry to get to the ship? Simple he knew he was being tracked and had to get himself and Anakin aboard and get off the planet towards Coruscant.
    In looking beyond the obvious, you seem to have found the ridiculous.

  23. Pooja Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2002
    star 6
    In looking beyond the obvious, you seem to have found the ridiculous.

    So I'm ridiculous to think that just MAYBE there is more to Qui-Gon than we realize? I bet we thought Vader being Luke's father was ridiculous before Episode V came out. In fact, my uncle brought up this to my dad after Episode IV came out, and my dad called him ridiculous. My dad didn't know for sure, and you surely don't know anything for sure yet.

    But Qui-Gon had not been delving into Sith Holocrons gaining evil power. His former Master had done that and his beliefs were becoming impurer all the time. While Qui-Gon was a firm believer in everything he served from the Republic to the Jedi, he was not corrupted by Sith Teachings or any such evil.

    That's an assumption. You don't know for sure.

    In TPM the reason Qui-Gon is at a seemingly obvious hurry is that he is aware that the TF may well be trying to go after the Queen, he needs to get the ship parts and get to Coruscant as fast as he can. It is the will of the Force which allows him to meet Anakin.

    Again, assumption. No one knows anything for sure just yet.

    You can argue my theory as much as you want, but calling it ridiculous is just that: ridiculous. Do I think my theory is possible? Of course, I wrote it up. Do I think it's TRUE? Maybe, maybe not. But still, posting what I think is not ridiculous.


  24. kenobikenobi Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 8, 2002
    star 3
    What I think abotu Qui-Gon

    -not really "bad"...I mean, I don't think he wants to turn Anakin to the dark side or anything...Why else would he discourage Anakin from slaughtering the Tusken Raiders? You would think that if he wanted Anakin to go to the dark side, then he would say "Yes! Yes! Go ahead Anakin! slice off some heads! The Dark Side is GOOD!" but, you know...he did'nt!

    -I think he thought he was doing the right thing for the Jedi and the force. He strikes me as being kind of a hippie...So I think somehow he was trying to bring balance back to the force, just not in a very conventional way. He had different beliefes then the rest of the Jedi. Thats why he was not a member of the council. Maybe he believes that the world should be a mix of light and dark side to truely be in balance? I dunno. I'm brainstorming here give me a break! :p

    -I DO think he was in a rush on Tatoonie, and thats why they did'nt work harder to take Anakin's mom...

    -I DO think he knew about the sith, and I think he knew they were following him.

    so thats my thoughts...but im open to change them if I hear something I like better :D
  25. Pooja Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2002
    star 6
    Good thoughts.

    Yeah, Qui-Gon is SO hippie.
    :)

    Lucas should have named him Tre-Hug Jinn.
    :p
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