Something that, I think, makes Episode I better- JUST a theory!

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith (Non-Spoilers)' started by Pooja, Jun 17, 2002.

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  1. Emperor_Dan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 21, 1999
    star 4
    Madame_Jocasta_Nu and markdil:

    I was just about to write a short post summarizing the progression of QGJ to Dooku to Anakin, and the relation to Luke, but you guys both wrote something 100 times better! I wish we had more of you here at the JC, because you really understand SW!

    So, does Obi-Wan gain any of the recklessness as Yoda commented in TPM? I don't think so, as "Don't do anything without either consulting myself or the council". He's a real stick-to-the-rules guy.

    One question: About Yoda's quote in ESB about Anakin always looking to the future. Isn't Anakin more like Qui-Gon, favoring the Living Force? And we said that Yoda and the Council both meditate, be mindful of the future? And that's sorta wrong too.
  2. Pooja Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2002
    star 6
    Good points my friend.

    Now, if only Episode III would hurry up...

    ...checking...checking...

    Nah it will take its sweet time.
    ;)
  3. markdil Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 2
    Here's something else I was thinking about:

    If I am right, and QGJ is a "better" Jedi than the council, why is he so instrumental in the training of Anakin... which leads to Vader's destruction of the Jedi? Isn't this a major mistake?

    This line in particular seems important-

    OB1: "They all sense the boy is dangerous, why can't you?"

    But after thinking about it further, I realize that in this example too, it is the COUNCIL that screwed up and QGJ was right all along. He brings Anakin before the council and suggests that he is the chosen one and he should be trained. The council forbids his training. Then, his dying wish to OB1 is that the boy would be trained by OB1.

    Now, obviously this not an ideal scenario... the chosen one being trained by a young Jedi who hasn't even completed the trials yet??? QGJ knows this, but he is desperate and he thinks it is his only hope that the chosen one would be trained. So what does the council do now? They allow Anakin to be trained... by OB1!!! This is lunacy! The chosen one should be trained by a very experienced Jedi Master (Yoda himself would be ideal) but instead they allow him to be a padawan to a jedi knight who has JUST passed the trials himself. This is a terrible decision by the council and is representative of the arrogance of the Jedi order.

    If the council had listened to QGJ from the beginning, and trained him properly, he may have brought balance to the force WITHOUT the destruction of the Jedi order. But the Jedi council's decisions regarding Anakin's future lead to their downfall.

    Emperor_Dan: I agree with you, OB1 is not rebellious like QGJ. He sees the Jedi council as an authority that is not to be questioned.

    In your 2nd question, I think you meant Luke, not Anakin? Yes, Luke is much more impulsive and more like QGJ than like the old council philosophies.
  4. episodenone Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 13, 2001
    star 4
    yes, luke is impulsive like QGJ - i posted this elsewhere and was crucified for it. :confused:

    i read somewhere, and while not confirmed by the movie, that the reason yoda trained dooku was because he was taken at a slightly older age due to his influential family tree and a defiant/stubborn streak in his personality.

    (while he should have been found early, what with being born in the republic and all...?)

    i believe i read it in the "AOTC Visual Dictionary" - but this was the reason yoda takes dooku as his OWN padawan learner.

    now, to cut to the chase, dooku isn't the chosen one.
    presumably he was never thought of as even potentially the chosen one.

    doesn't it make so much more sense for yoda, or any EXPERIENCED council member, to have trained the chosen one?!?!

    obviously gl chose to make obi-wan a younger, inexperienced jedi, for a reason.
    perhaps to show why he failed at training anakin.
    BUT I always assumed obi-wan would have trained anakin without yoda having the choice.
    yes to BE trained, but no to the chance to train him himself.

    so what exactly is gl's objective?
    i am not sure.

    yoda should have trained anakin - but i think the PT convoluded the reason he doesn't.
  5. Madame_Jocasta_Nu Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2001
    star 1
    I too think the fact Obi-Wan ended up training Anakin himself is a puzzling mistake from QG, Obi-Wan and the Council (all three are variously responsible, IMO).

    But I don't think this is a plot hole so much as an unresolved issue. I think there is a chance that Yoda's motives are explained in episode III, when Obi-Wan expresses his guilt for his failure as a teacher. I wouldn't be surprised if Council's decision to let him train Anakin gets explained at that point.

    But I really don't know where Lucas is going with all that. His trend since TPM seems to exonerate Obi-Wan from almost all of the blame : in AotC he even foresaw Anakin's problems with much more insight than the Council. Watching the OT now, it seems that Obi-Wan took all this very hard and blames himself way too much.

    The missing link remains what Yoda will think about all this. After all, only Obi-Wan blamed Obi-Wan in the OT - Yoda never gave us his opinion, but it sounded like he blamed Anakin himself much more than Obi.

    In the end, this issue belongs much more in episode III than it did in ROTJ where Yoda's background and the Jedi Order were not explored. My feeling is that it will definitely be covered in episode III.
  6. Jabachile Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2001
    star 4
    I love this, this is probably the best explanation of Qui-Gonn being a villain yet.

    I think he was rushing, though, so that they could get Padmé to Coruscant...she was in danger, maybe he felt it in the force.

    Still, this makes a lot of sense, and it certainly explains why Dooku spoke of him like that in AOTC. I think he and Qui-Gonn were the ones that were planning to start the Sepratists.

    Maybe they had discussed it for a while, and Qui-Gonn erased the memory as well as ordering the clones. He would probably been with Dooku had he not been killed.

    Perhaps Dooku asked Sidious to kill Qui-Gonn because he was gaining too much power?
  7. episodenone Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 13, 2001
    star 4
    madamej_n:
    i am not so sure i believe this is a plot point gl will set us straight on this fact.
    he should - but it seems more of an issue for us than gl himself.

    true - obi-wan seems beyond reproach in the PT thus far - gl must show us ani's strength versus obi's failure!!

    or perhaps obi-wan is being set up to blame himself. perhaps it's that simple.
    and what it really comes down to is anakin's failures and inadequacies that cause his demise, and less obi-wan's lack of teaching skill.

    now that we have mace and ki-adi, and yoda does not take him on as his padawan - shouldn't we need an explanation of why neither of them speaks up and asks to train ani?

    of course we know the basic answer to this!
    the OT is law, and we must accept the fact that obi-wan trained ani.

    how QGJ is to blame - i do not know.
    while he begs obi to train ani, he never insists that it must be obi, more that he just convince the council to allow it.

    then again, this is subjective due to the fact that he seems to mean for obi to train ani at all costs.

    remember, QGJ accepts the council's decision, and does not *officially* take ani as his padawan.
    it seems his imminent death calls for him to speak of drastic action when he squeaks out his dying words.
  8. obhavekenobi78 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 5
    Does anyone think that Qui-Gon Jinn's focus on the Living Force is what allows him to be heard by Yoda during the Tusken slaughter scene. Chronologically speaking, this is the first instance where we observe a Jedi materializing after death. Of course, we all know that by the time Obi-Wan trains Luke, he has changed his philosophy and he too is able to speak from the grave.

    IMO, I can't see QGJ being evil or corrupted in any way. I think he is just frustrated by the Council's lack of vision and their reliance on the Unifying Force and their inability to "feel" the force's will.

    Any thoughts?
  9. Darth_Jaxon Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2001
    star 3
    Great post Pooja. I have felt since EP I that there is a chance that Qui-Gon is a Sith or at least not as good as we are led to believe. Many people in this thread have stated reasons why. There is only one thing I want to add. Someone mentioned Qui-Gon not working harder to free Shmi. Here is what I could never understand. When he makes the bet with Watto, we learn that no pod is worth two slaves. However once QG wins the bet, Anakin is free and they still have the pod. Not only that, but it's a proven winner to boot. Now you're telling me Watto wouldn't have taken this pod for Shmi? What's the deal? Why didn't QG trade Watto the pod for Shmi. Even if Watto didn't want it surely they could have sold the pod for enough to buy Shmi from Watto. It just seems odd to me that QG didn't try harder to free Shmi. Could it be because he knew this would cause Anakin much conflict in the future and thus easier to turn him to the dark side?
  10. Darth_Treats Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jun 20, 2002
    Great post Pooja! I've been pushing the "Secretly Evil Qui-Gon" theory on my friends for years,but all my ranting and raving has been met with rolling of the eyes! Qui-Gon had to be in on the plan,to some degree at least. He seemed to know more than he let on in TPM. I agree with you,he was way to quick to say that Darth Maul was a Sith. Qui-Gon wouldn't have been in TPM if he didn't have more going on.
  11. Darth_Jaxon Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2001
    star 3
    There is one other thing I want to point out. Perhaps some of the reasons we are analyzing and considering this possibility is because QG's role in the PT does not seem to be complete. QG is a seemingly important character yet he really has a somewhat meaningless role to this point. Yes he discovered Anakin and brought him to the Jedi for training, but Lucas could have reserved this role for Obi-Wan or anyone else. Why create and incorporate QG into the story? I think there is more here than meets the eye. I think QG's full impact on the PT has yet to be revealed.
  12. Pooja Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2002
    star 6
    Whoa, hold up here fellas.

    I don't think Qui-Gon is a villain. Could he be? Yes, he very well could. The main purpose of my post, though, is not to suggest that Qui-Gon is a bad boy. I just think he was brainwashed, no, tricked, no, eh, what's the word. Confused? No. I don't know. Qui-Gon rubbed off as a very wise, kind gentleman to me. In fact, Qui-Gon was about the most kind person in the Star Wars films. Luke was nice, but that's because he was whiny, much like his father before him. Leia seemed stuck up, due to her popularity.

    And Han, well, he's Han. :p

    But Qui-Gon is about the most kind person I've seen in these movies. Yoda is nice, but being lil Jesus with the Force and saber skills certainly has his ego sky high. Mace Windu is the same way. Mace reminded me of a school Principal. Not good.

    But Qui-Gon was always nice; and never really acted like he thought he was better than anyone, sans Padme and Obi-Wan.

    So, how COULD Qui-Gon be evil? Or a villain? Or working for the villains? How?

    The dark side clouds everything. Yoda said this in Attack of the Clones. There is a lot more to this line I think. Qui-Gon, in my opinion, was a kaleidoscope for the Dark Side. Maybe not evil, but totally out of proportion and just not sure of things.

    I remember, as a child, I was one of the nicest children in my family (lol). Anyway, one day I was down at the river, and I found a turtle. Just a harmless snapping turtle. Well, so I reach down and picked it up because it looked cool. It proceeded to bite my finger, and it drew blood. Me, being just a kid, cried. I mean, it pierced my skin big time. What did I do? I picked up the turtle again. I was so mad, I didn't care. I picked it up, and threw it against a rock.

    Now, don't take me as a psycho. The thing hurt me, I was a little boy, and I just got pissed off, and killed it. I bashed it against a rock until it died. After that, I went home, treated my wound, and went on with life.

    So why did I go off telling that little story? Well, it relates to my opinion on Qui-Gon. I think Qui-Gon is a kindred spirit, but when certain things happen, he is driven into doing about anything. Like me, Qui-Gon is a nice person. But, also like me, I still done an act of pure evil. The turtle was just defending itself, and its only natural, if hurt by something, to hurt it back.

    I think this is what Qui-Gon has done. Maybe something happened to him, or something said to him, that led him to do the things he was doing in Episode I. None of us know; only Lucas knows. Will we find out in Episode III? Probably. Now, what if Episode III comes and goes, and we didn't get an explanation about Qui-Gon, and we are left to assume he was just trying to do good things? Fine. But it was fun to speculate, and believe me, I'd rather speculate and talk about this stuff, rather than complaining about dialogue and such.

    This gives us fans who love our movies the opportunity to actually have mature debates about the prequels, AND the originals, if they happen to come into the conversation.

    I'm not implying Qui-Gon was evil. I just think things happened to him, LIKE things happened to Anakin, that drove him into doing what Sidious, or Dooku, or even an unrevealed evil, wanted him to do.
  13. Darth_Jaxon Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2001
    star 3
    Actually I think Palpy is the kindest person in the PT. Look at all he does for the galaxy out of the kindness of his heart. :p

    Ok- not really but it shows that just because someone acts kind doesn't mean they are. QG will probably not turn out to be evil, but I wouldnt' be shocked if he does and I won't let his kindness fool me.
  14. Pooja Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2002
    star 6
    Yeah, after all, he just loves democracy.

    I just don't know what to think about Qui-Gon yet.

    Meditate on this, I will. :p
  15. episodenone Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 13, 2001
    star 4
    ok - i think i can debunk all who think QGJ is sith oriented and a part of a conspiracy to corrupt the chosen one.

    in starlog mag this month, in an interview with gl:

    I HAVE NO POSSIBLE SPOILERS TO REPORT -- OK!!!

    gl says he discussed with liam the possibility of doing lines for epII

    but here is my point:
    why would QGJ scream "anakin, anakin - NOOOO" with such anxiety in his voice??

    it sure sounds like QGJ's voice wanted to stop ani in his tracks to me!!!

    not turn his feelings to the dark side.

    anyone agree?
  16. kenobikenobi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 8, 2002
    star 3
    Yeah episodenone...For awhile I thought Qui-Gon was evil untill I thought about that line. Why would'nt he want Anakin to kill all those Tuskens if he wanted him to turn to the dark side? You'd think if QG were a sith he'd love it if Anakin were releasing his anger like that!

    So yeah...I think that QG would have been in the serperatist movement with Dooku had he been alive...In fact he probably helped start it. However, I think his intentions were not evil. In the Visual Dictionary, it says Dooku did'nt like the fact that the Jedi Council had deteriorated to being like a private police force for the senate, and he believed the senate was corrupt and should not have such close ties with the jedi. I think QG would have probably had the same view point.
    Add the fact that QG did'nt agree with the council on how to use the force...I think the council wanted to use it more as a tool, while Qui-Gon's view was that life forms are mutual with the force. We are a part of them, they are a part of us. Our fate is theirs. Especially when it comes to Anakin, who really IS the force.
    Does this mean QG is an evil? Not really...It just means he did'nt agree with the council, which I think is acceptable considering how screwed up it is at this point. Maybe the council was good when it first started, but I think the council has lost its original values. They turned more into cops then anything.
    Maybe that is what is meant by balance in the force? The mutual relationship between lifeforms and the force?


    Plus as Pooja said...he seemed like a nice guy!

    By the way Pooja, I sense much fear in you! [face_devil] lol.
  17. DarthTerrious Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2001
    star 5
    Madam Jocastu Nu, Episodenone I have to agree with you both.

    And Episodenone I agree with you last post.

    Qui-Gon is trying to shout to Anakin to stop him, but it doesn't happen then he goes "Nooooo!!!" and IMHO is gone from the Force. But Anyway I don't believe Qui-Gon is in on anything.

    Madame Jocastu Nu & EpisodeNone and Markdil said it all perfectly. I would add something but you guys have all thats required.

    Also on the subject of Obi-Wan. I don't believe he is to blame for Anakin's turn. And QG didnt push him into taking on Anakin either.
    QG knew that unless he got Obi-Wanto take o Anakin, the Council would have forbidden Ani's training. He knew Ani is the Chosen One and didnt want the Council to make this mistake. Obi-Wan was his only chance, was Anakins only chance.
    Now Obi-Wan is inexperienced and is lacking in skills of teaching. But its Anakins failures of not controlling his emotions, and the Jedi Council's wrong decision regarding Anakin and his training that are to blame.
    But Obi-Wan takes Anakins turn on the chin and accepts it as his failure and his blame. Its not right but there is something tragic about Obi-Wan that makes it necessary that he feels the way he does. And he also feels that since Anakin was his Padawan, his charge and his responsibility, that he should be the one to blame.
  18. Pooja Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2002
    star 6
    We really don't know anything about why Qui-Gon yelled that out, or whatever. We can only assume. Also, maybe Lucas doesn't want us to be suspicious? Guys, we don't know anything, so let's try and stop taking everything we hear for granted.

    And Qui-Gon may be nothing more than we seen in Episode I. But I'm standing my ground, and I'm saying, in my opinion, there is a lot more going on with his character than we know.

    And why do you sense fear in me? :p
  19. kenobikenobi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 8, 2002
    star 3
    Maybe cause banging a snapping turtle against a rock is a little evil!? lol.
  20. DarthSrnec Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 18, 2002
    Just a point about Qui-Gon Jinn rushing on Tatooine...

    He had already said in the movie that he felt there was more to it (the Federation invasion) than what appeared. He warned the Queen and convinced her that they would kill her if she stayed on Naboo. It appears that Qui-Gon sees the Trade Federation's actions as absurd and hard to fully understand. He believes that they have unkown motives--motives which are not what they appear, intentions to do more than just convince a Queen to sign a treaty (he insisted that she would be killed). Perhaps Jinn feels that the Trade Federation is very dangerous (their military blocakde, and invasion and subjugation make no sense) and time is of the essence in getting to Coruscant and stopping the Federation cold. This would explain his apparent haste on Tatooine.
  21. Pooja Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2002
    star 6
    Maybe cause banging a snapping turtle against a rock is a little evil!? lol.

    Yes animal violence is bad, but not when you're an adolescent!
  22. Madame_Jocasta_Nu Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2001
    star 1
    "QG knew that unless he got Obi-Wanto take o Anakin, the Council would have forbidden"

    I tend to agree with that. I'd just add that the irony of that is that after the demonstration of Anakin's talents in the space battle and the confirmation of the return of the Sith, the Jedi Council would probably have taken Anakin no matter what. Only Yoda still had reservations, but we don't know for sure if it's about training Anakin at all or reservations about letting Obi-Wan train him. It's left open for interpretation. But QG couldn't possibly foresee that outcome when he asked Obi-Wan to train Anakin. There is a lot of fatality involved in all this.

    For QG it was either that or nothing, for Obi-Wan it was also either that or nothing (when he made his statement about training Ani no matter what, he didn't expect the Council to suddenly agree with him, thus his very defiant tone), for the Council... well, they lacked vision to an extent.

    They foresaw troubles with Anakin, but they fail to see the galactic-wide consequences of having the Chosen One fall to the dark side. The key, I think, is that they didn't believe the Chosen One could ever fall to the dark side, so if Anakin demonstrates the telltale weaknesses, he must not be the Chosen One and therefore they won't risk training a risky subject for nothing.

    I don't think it was inherently wrong of them to put Anakin in Obi-Wan's charge. They might well have believed that he would do better with someone who could connect with him, be his bigger brother instead of an older man with more authority. Also, even Dooku has heard of Yoda's "great esteem" of Obi-Wan. Kenobi is specially talented too, and respected by the greatest Master. Ultimately, the Council did believe Obi-Wan to be up to the task, so they were simply not looking for an alternative more experienced master, especially since Obi-Wan was asking for the job.

    I think in the end the Council never saw the possibility that the Chosen One could turn to the dark side and long after come back to the light to balance the Force. That probably doesn't fit into their interpretation of the Prophecy. When they decided Anakin could be the One, I think they automatically ruled out he could turn badly. If so, they would assume they were wrong about their belief that he was the Chosen One (which might well be what Kenobi will end up believing). They had no room for the possibility that Anakin could turn and be the One, because the One should accomplish the will of the Force, yada, yada. They didn't account for Anakin's decisions of choosing another path.

    I think we judge them a bit harshly because we know the outcome and furthermore we were privy to Anakin's actions in both movies while they were not. We must grant the Council that there was not much to fear in Jake Lloyd's Anakin - he was a bright, nice, compassionate little boy. They must have come to the conclusion that they were wrong about his fears or that his clouded future was his fight against the Sith to bring balance back to the Force, not to him directly.
  23. Pooja Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2002
    star 6
    From the OS:

    This first battle of the Clone Wars was a victory for the Republic, but Yoda was troubled. Too much had been clouded by the dark side, and the judgment of the Jedi order was perhaps sullied by complacency and arrogance. Not only had many Jedi died on Geonosis, but the very nature of death itself was now unclear to the wise old master. While meditating, Yoda had felt a traumatic event befall young Anakin Skywalker. At that very moment, he also heard the voice of Qui-Gon Jinn, a Jedi Master slain a decade previous. It was impossible for a Jedi to retain his identity after becoming one with the Force, yet he had heard it.

    It was another dangerous and disturbing puzzle for Yoda to solve while the Republic collapsed around him.


    That pretty much does it for me. This implies that MAYBE Qui-Gon wasn't a Jedi after all. Or, if not, then what could this mean?
  24. DarthTerrious Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2001
    star 5
    Thats stupid. Later in the saga we see Yoda and Obi-Wan retain their identity after becoming one with the Force. And they are Jedi.

    Of course Qui-Gon is a Jedi. But what that passage means is that Yoda realises that QG' fous on the Force means that a Jedi can retain their identity once they become one with the Force.

    This is all about whichside of the Frce a Jedi follows. Either the Living Force or the Unifying Force. Not whether they are a Jedi or not.
  25. Jabachile Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2001
    star 4
    I still think that Anakin will be the one who figures out the "ghost technique". Remember:

    "I will even learn to stop people from dying."

    That would also explain why he stepped on Obi's robe in ANH...to see if his technique actually worked.
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