CT "Soon the Rebellion will be crushed and young Skywalker will be one of us"

This line bugs me a bit as it seems as if Palpitine is a bit too casual in showing his hand in his desire to replace Vader with Luke.
3 things come to mind -
1 Palpitine never bothered to inform Vader of the Rule of two in his lessons to Vader
2 Vader was aware of Palpitine being displeased with him aftwr his loss to Obi Wan on Mutistifar but planned to overthrow Palpitine with Luke anyway so he simply ignored the comment.
3 Palpitine had decided to dispense with the Rule of two now rhat the Sith victory was complete. This might be more in line with Palpitines thinking as he had both Darth Maul and Darth Tyranus as apprentices at the same time.

 

The comics go into this more. Sidious was very disappointed with Anakin’s loss at Mustafar and tried to find another apprentice, but non could match Vader’s skills with the force or a lightsaber. Vader finds out about these attempts soon after ANH.

 

I think they both knew the game — the Sith always try to one-up each other; the Apprentice kills the Master, or the Master replaces an Apprentice with another.

Vader himself was trying to depose Palpatine, as evident in Empire Strikes Back when he talks to Luke about how they can rule together and restore order to the galaxy. Clearly this would entail Palpatine having to be killed for this to happen.

 

Or...the "rule of two" that the PT brought in was not in play back then and the comment was meant exactly as it was said...?

 

Doubtful since as said above he said father and son will rule the galaxy. He never mentioned Sheev.

 

But that isn't what's happening in that scene, any more than the joint decision to turn Luke, made back in ESB, dictated the death of Vader.

 

In the Return of the Jedi, Palpatine's plan seems to be to convert Luke to the Dark Side, but NOT to replace Vader (as both Palpatine and Vader are planning it together). Only at the very end do we (and Vader) realize that Palpatine DID want Luke to destroy Vader in the process (the wonderful line "young fool... only now... at the end... do you understand" has so many meanings!). And of course, from the previous movie, we knew that Vader's secret plan was to use Luke to get rid of the Emperor.

That's how the Sith work. They hide their true intentions, they lie, they mislead. They're greedy and selfish. Both Vader and Palpatine had their secret agenda at the same time. That's why "only two there are, no more no less". The "rule of two" (which doesn't exist as such in the movies) isn't some official rule the Sith follow as a group: it's only the result of their treacherous and decieving actions.

The EU can say whatever it says (I admit I don't know much about it), but by watching the movies, it is obvious that the Sith tend to betray one another, hiding their true intentions, until it's too late. Sidious did that with Dooku/Anakin (Dooku obviously didn't know he was going to be killed), and he wanted to do it again with Vader/Luke (Vader obviously didn't know he was going to be killed either), to avoid what happened to Plagueis.

 

Both Vader and the Emperor had their own reasons for going after Luke - Vader saw the potential in his son during Empire Strikes Back and wanted to have him join him in an attempt to defeat the Emperor. Palpatine saw both a dangerous threat (that could undo all the work he did in molding Vader) as well as a possible shiny new trophy he could hang around by his side to replace the battered and broken old one. They were both planning to undermine the other from their very first scene together in the Empire Strikes Back.

 

No, he didn't. Dooku became Tyranus after Maul was gone.

 

Dooku assassinated Sifo-Dyas (on Sidious's behalf) before Maul was gone, late in the Valorum administration (showing that he was no longer on the light side, but a "darksider"). He contracted the Pykes under the name "Tyranus" as well.

So - after Maul's "death", Dooku went from "Tyranus" to Darth Tyranus.

 

Vader knows that Sidious knows that Vader knows that Sidious knows etc etc...
This is how darksiders function. They always try to stay one step ahead of each other and in this particular case, they're both fully aware of what's really going on - and confident in their abilities to win. They'll never say it out loud, but between the lines, there's an unspoken "Let the best man win (in other words, me)".

 

I'm not so sure about that. I think Sidious fully believed that Vader was his. That he was so powerful with the Dark Side of the force, he had enslaved Vader forever. That was his arrogance -which led to his downfall (as Yoda had predicted, his trust in his apprentice was misplaced). He seems truly convinced that Vader cannot be turned from the dark side (it is unavoidable... it is your destiny), and at no point shows any fear that Vader might bretray him.
Similarly, I think Vader was so depressed and trapped in ROTJ that he no longer hoped to use Luke to kill the Emperor. He feels he has no choice but to obey his master, he feels he is too weak to fight the Dark Side (it is too late, son), and that Luke is too strong-willed to be corrupted by him (as he tried in Empire).

Also, as I said before, I don't think Vader realizes that Palpatine intends to substitute him for Luke until the very end of the fight. He might fear that, but his total obedience to Palpatine's stated plan (to lure Luke to the Dark Side to join them both) indicates to me that he is not fully aware of Palpatine's true plans.

 

Here's my thoughts:

I don't think at any time Vader hadn't already considered that Palpetine would try to replace him. Even without the force, Vader is a very smart man. He's been acting deliberately obtuse towards the Emperor the whole movie. The way he looks warily over at his master as they walk away from the shuttle as he calculates and chooses his words carefully in conversation with the Emperor. How he feigns surprise when the Emperor "reveals" that Luke will come to him. "HE will come to ME?" Just the manner that line is delivered comes off as fake by the character, at least to me it does. If anybody knows how the Emperor truly thinks and acts, there would be no one better than his right-hand man. Even without the prequels, I'm sure Vader has already realized Palpetine didn't get to where he was by being true to his word. Especially when he at times hasn't kept his word, as seen when he keeps changing the deal with Lando on Bespin. I'm convinced he had already considered this possibility at some point. Every interaction between Palpetine and Vader is just Vader paying lip service, in my opinion. They're both characters playing...characters.

The Endor scene was just about a last ditch-effort to get Luke to join him. During the conversation, the son tries to turn the father and the father is trying to turn the son. Both realize the other isn't budging, and Vader's words are almost like a warning to Luke about the darkside and the Emperor and laced with remorse/regret over his life path. That and saying essentially "You've made your choice son, this is what it costs and you had better be prepared for it".

I think whatever true loyalty Vader had to the Emperor had already been waning for a long time, and by the time the Endor scene concludes, it's pretty much gone and Vader is simply going through the motions. It started to falter the very moment he discovered it was his son who destroyed the first Death Star. Palpetine had to know Vader and Luke being father and son would cause Vader's loyalty to falter. Both the apprentice and the master are scheming and putting on a front towards one another. It's all a charade once Vader makes the discovery about Luke.

Now you might ask, why would Vader block Luke from striking down the Emperor if he's not truly loyal? He has no real choice as his suit is a massive vulnerability if he openly defied the Emperor without Luke's aide. Partly, if he failed to act then Palpetine would certainly so and may have outright killed Luke then and there, then turn on Vader, destroying them both. Another possibility is, let's say Luke actually is able to strike down the Emperor. Now it's just Vader and Luke. Since neither could be swayed to the other's side, it would most certainly mean they would then begin fighting to the death. Vader was trying to avoid that particular moment at all costs. As Luke says, Vader is a conflicted man, and realizing this last possibility, he "protects" the Emperor to prolong the fight as he again tries to get through to his son. Luke is also purposely dragging the fight along as well. They're both still trying to reach each other. As the duel progresses, I think resentment is building in Vader towards Luke's rejection of him and then here and there, I almost think a part of Vader wants Luke to snap and destroy them both [Vader, and Palpetine]. The moment Luke throws his lightsaber away, Vader sees his son would rather die for his beliefs, friends, and the rebellion. The regret and remorse over his life path comes back and Vader destroys the Emperor himself, no longer caring about his own well being.

I've read an excerpt from an earlier draft once where Vader attempts to throw himself over the railing with Palpetine, but Luke stops him. This is what has me thinking that at times in the final version, Vader might still be trying to goad his son into destroying both sith lords. Not the entire time, but fleeting moments of such feelings. I think he struggles between wanting to be with his son to "I've messed up and I just want it to end forever".

TL;DR

everybody's an onion.

 

Well .. there's two ways to look at this:
1. Palpatine wanted to keep the Rule of Two and was telling Vader outright that "young Skywalker" would be replacing one of him
- leading nicely (imho) into Vader's obsession with finding Luke and the whole "Rule as father and son" business.
2. Palpatine wanted to change the old rule and have a second sithy apprentice.

obviously, the rule of two business wasn't in play when they wrote OT so.. eh.

 

Or the most logical conclusion is that by "one of us", Palpatine simply meant 'dark side devotee' and not specifically Sith Lord. Which goes back to their previous conversation where their open intention was for Luke to be their "powerful ally" and "great asset".

Of course, we do know both of them were secretly trying to use Luke to repleace each other as a Sith. Which is what Sith do, which also confirms the whole point of there only being two of them.

 

The Luke/Vader/Emperor conflict never fully made sense despite those scenes being incredible in their own right.

But remember this is the same movie that made Luke and Leia out to be brother and sister, so hardly the most offensive and insulting aspect of the movie.

 

From the Return of the Jedi story conference in 1981:

Lucas: Vader’s plot is to convert Luke to the dark side, make him an ally, and then topple the Emperor. At this point he and the Emperor want to turn Luke to the dark side. I don’t think Vader would care whether he turned Luke to the dark side or if the Emperor turned him, because he feels that once Luke is turned, he can use him for his ally. The Emperor and Vader are in total agreement about what’s going to happen. They both want to get a hold of Luke. They both want him converted to the dark side: the Emperor to replace Vader, and Vader to replace the Emperor. They are perfect bad guys.

 

IMO - The primary reason the Sith were able to defeat the Jedi was the ability to adapt to a changing set of conditions in the galaxy while the Jedi had become mired in Dogma and tradition, preventing them from being able to see the danger or adapt quickly enough once hey were in the middle of the storm.

 

Well the point is that they didn't see the Sith return until it was too late. The tradition they were mired in went back tens of thousands of years so it wasn't unique to the Jedi of that time as such but they hadn't dealt with the Sith for a thousand years. No one, not even Yoda, had ever faced them before and the new Sith had a different approach from the Sith of old who while secretive were more open in threat as opposed to the insidious way that Darth Sidious had.

 

Sidious always played fast and loose with the Rule of Two - Maul and Dooku, Dooku being allowed to train Ventress, etc. Yeah you can say "well technically Dooku/Ventress were not Sith at the relevant time" but the distinction is really not meaningful besides the Dark Lord giving you a title.

 

Sidious always followed and enforced the rule of two (as the master, he's responsible for that). He had Maul, then Tyranus and finally Vader. Never two at the same time. Ventress is not a Sith, nor could Dooku declare her one while he had a master himself. And once Sidious sensed that she was being trained in the ways of the dark side, he ordered his apprentice to get rid of her. Vader tried to do the same in secret by turning Luke, but once Sidious discovered, he decided to let Luke be turned and prove his worth in order to replace Vader. He never intended to keep the two of them.

 

I always thought that Palpatine and Vader both knew the deal, and they were cool with it. A lot of people and writers make Vader and Palpatine frenemies; but, I think they were genuine friends.
There's a line in revenge of The Sith where Sidious says "Lord Vader will be more powerful than either of us". This always lead me to believe that Palpatine actually did care for Vader as a friend. He knew knew one day Vader would challenge him and he wanted it to happen.
If Sidious was afraid that Vader would challenge him, he could have left him to die on Mustafar. He didn't. He rescued him. It's like Vader was his project. He befriended him from youth and mentored him. Palpatine knew that through competition the Sith will be stronger. It's Palaptine who teaches Anakin about the rule of two in his telling of "The Tragedy of Darth Plagueis the Wise".

 

Wait - wasn't Anakin directly responsible for disposing of Sidious' last apprentice (Dooku) in pretty much as a similar situation, with almost the same dialogue (Anakin's second step to the Dark side was Dooku's extrajudicial murder) - I'm sure he was well aware of the consequences and must've assumed that Luke would either join them (HIM) peaceably or be destroyed.

Interesting though .. that as powerful as Palpatine evidently is, he doesn't sense Luke's presence in the Force on Endor as Vader / Anakin is able to.. the familial ties that bind, apparently (or at least until the ST).

 

Vader was always very satisfied and comfortable in his position as second in command to the Empire if anything the rise of Luke Skywalker to Apprenticeship would be a promotion for Lord Vader. We know he longed for reuniting with his son and the ambition for yet more power but with Luke by his side he would have more power over the Emperor. The Emperor was very surprised to see just how strong and confident Luke had become. It was not going to be as easy as the Emperor had forseen. I reckon Lord Vader ever the willing follower would do all he could to keep his position within the Empire and so taking on his own son would have been of no consequence to him.