SOS - Luke Skywalker - Version 2.0

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Jedi Ben, Sep 12, 2005.

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  1. Quivyr Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2007
    star 1
    Jedi Ben: No, no, no, no, no! There were always six movies, SIX! And we all know that Lucas never changes his mind

    But..but...I thought it was nine!;)

    As a side note, I believe the three unfilmed were supposed to be after the ROTJ era. Not sure how long after though. I remember reading something somewhere that claimed to be the actual scripts to those 3 movies, but I VERY much doubt it.

    If a miracle occured, and those 3 movies were to be made, wht would you like to see in them? Would you want to toss the EU out? Would you want it to include some EU? All EU? And if so, which characters would you like to see featured?

    I apologize if this has been done before, but I'd like to see your answers.

    And thanks for the info Charlemagne:D
  2. Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2003
    star 6
    I'd be fine with tossing the EU out, but largely so we could have a really destroyed Empire and the New Republic.
  3. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    Nine? Nein!
  4. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    The actual story according to Skywalking and various other biographical works including George Lucas was the fact that George Lucas wrote the original drafts for his science fiction movie in Film School. The original Star Wars seems to have been something that vaguely resembled a Kurasawa Film crossed with Lawrence of Arabia. It was also a bit raunchy with Luke Starkiller found in a closet with a beautiful space babe by Mace at one point.

    Lucas pretty much dropped the idea and failed with THX-1138 where he was almost bankrupted. American Graffiti came out, he was an actual success (and Happy Days was created to feed on that franchise for an extremely long time). Lucas wanted to do a Flash Gordon movie but found out the rights were tied up and decided to go back to his own original notes, something that lots of authors do.

    Lucas created A New Hope and was heavily revising the notes throughout the original story. Lucas dumped boatloads of exposition from the time of the casting call to the point where he actually started filming. Plus, there's large amounts of scenes that were cut like Luke and 3PO having conversations. Lucas envisioned at this point a trilogy but created the movie with no other movies outlined.

    In other words, ANH actually was created with NOTHING after it. No Master Plan.

    Lucas then had his loads of success and started experimenting with the idea of nine movies (hence the Episode IV tag on that was created). He started outlining a lot of ideas but the decision to make Darth Vader into Luke Skywalker's father was actually made after Splinter of the Mind's Eye was drawn up as a possible sequel material (but by the time it was finished, Lucas already knew he had a hit).

    ESB, let's not forget, originally had the "Grand Vizier" be the hologram character and Darth Vader's master before Lucas changed his mind.

    However, by Return of the Jedi, Lucas was already having a bit of an emotional and mental breakdown with the end of his marriage and the exhausting nature of the casting. Carrie Fisher, Mark Hamill, and Harrison Ford were all pretty much in no position to make four more movies and decided to make one. Lucas had a bunch of notes but it's important to remember he didn't do the scripts for 2 or 3 just a lot of concepts.

    Return of the Jedi was created from the idea that Lucas had for the Rebels retaking Coruscant where 3 Death Stars were being built (then called Hadd Abaddon after the Book of Revelations). The Emperor's throne room was originally a Lava and Hellish environment but replaced with the Death Star throne room. Leia was retconned into being Luke's sister (she wasn't originally and a new character was supposed to be her), we were also going to meet a love interest for Luke whom my details are vague on but was going to be an Imperial Princess of some kind.

    Lucas maintained that he wanted to do 6 movies from this point on, however, because he knew that he could do another cast and had created a backstory for Anakin by this point that we see a lot in the Return of the Jedi novelization but was written just before ROTJ.

    These became the Prequels as we know them (with the original having Owen Lars and company being Obi Wan's brother). As we know, Lucas continued rewriting even these.
  5. RK_Striker_JK_5 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2003
    star 7
    Master_Starwalker:
    They'll just pawn it off on Lucas.

    Del Rey Rep:"We had this great and tragic story arc planned where Jaina became a great hero who redeemed her brother and saved the galaxy. Unfortunately, Lucas vetoed it because he thought people might get Luke and Jaina confused."

    I can hear that in my head. There's more contradictions coming out of Skywalker Ranch than Borg from a cube!

    I agree, but the Dark Side is more powerful at least in the immediate sense.
    SO the Dark Side is like Del Rey planning?

    So what happens when Lucas and the films contradict?
    The EU is higher canon for me, and the YJK trumps all.

    Sometimes I think it's that, other times I think Lucas loves reading fans try to reconcile things into a single continuity rather than just saying "Oh, whatever it's fiction."
    There's a German term for that... deriving pleasure from someone else's suffering... san-something?

    Jedi_Ben:
    * Hosk's death is being lauded as one of the best moments in the EU by lots of people, the reason is that the execution of it was literally beautiful.
    Hmm, something to look forward to. He was the Bothan Jedi Cade turned in earlier, right?

    * Force Ghosts are meant to be mysterious, get used to it, I mean what was ObiWan talking about with all that 'become more powerful than you can possibly imagine' !? He lost, got cut down, he's dead.
    I always suspected being mysterious and obtuse-sounding was a prerequisite for coming back to this plane. I actually make a comment or two on it in my fics.

    Charlemagne19:
    The only reason we've seen so much grunge so far is the fact that it's mostly set in Cade's world whose a grungy sort of guy.
    I thought he was trying to bring back new-wave music with Blue and Rav! :eek: ;)

    ChildOfWInds:
    Well, Luke always used to have dark visions when a dark enemy was about to show up, as he did right before they found Nyax and Lumiya/Jacen. Why wouldn't he have visions of 10,000 Sith???
    Probably an excuse would be 'grief over Mara's death' and 'JINO's on his mind'.

    On the contrary, C, that's Very GOOD news! But I think that's a retcon too. There didn't seem to be much of an indication that they were married in the earlier issues. And this does make it seem even odder that she would leave leave permanently. Why would she marry him if she wasn't willing to commit to him and to her family?
    It happens in real life too, Windy, sad to say.


    Quivr:
    But..but...I thought it was nine!
    Three... five!

    As a side note, I believe the three unfilmed were supposed to be after the ROTJ era. Not sure how long after though. I remember reading something somewhere that claimed to be the actual scripts to those 3 movies, but I VERY much doubt it.
    I hope they don't get made. Seeing some people try and reconcile the inevitable contradictions and their heads exploding would not be pretty.

    Although that YJK animated series they wanted to do in 1995??? I would kill to have seen that happen!

    Note to Jedi_Ben, Charlemagne19 and J_K_Dart:
    Tomorrow, I shoukd be able to get a DVD set with the first three pisodes of DR. Who. Would you like a review of them when I watch them?
  6. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
  7. Quivyr Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2007
    star 1
    Charlemagne19:

    It was also a bit raunchy with Luke Starkiller found in a closet with a beautiful space babe by Mace at one point.

    And Mace's inevitable lecture about 'attachments'? Sorry, couldn't resist.

    Lucas pretty much dropped the idea and failed with THX-1138 where he was almost bankrupted. American Graffiti came out, he was an actual success (and Happy Days was created to feed on that franchise for an extremely long time). Lucas wanted to do a Flash Gordon movie but found out the rights were tied up and decided to go back to his own original notes, something that lots of authors do.

    THX-1138 was rather a bad movie. Flash Gordon, the newer version, I actually remember fondly. Yes, it was campy and rather B-flickish, but I found it had an undeniable sense of fun so many movies lack these days.

    Interesting info about Lucas' original plans for the story after Episode IV. It sounds like a tangled mess and I'm glad it was simplified and it turned out that way.

    RKStriker:

    Three... five!

    And the number of the counting shall be three. Not two, and not four, but three. Five... is right out! (obligatory Monty Python and the Holy Grail reference)

    I hope they don't get made. Seeing some people try and reconcile the inevitable contradictions and their heads exploding would not be pretty.

    Although that YJK animated series they wanted to do in 1995??? I would kill to have seen that happen!


    Thinking about it the way you put it, I'm forced to agree;)

    And a YJK animated series would have been unreal.
  8. ChildOfWinds Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2001
    star 5
    Master_Starwalker

    ChildOfWinds

    So are you saying that the Dark Siders ARE stronger than Lightsiders but that Lightsiders CAN beat them because the Dark Siders get arrogant which causes them to make mistakes?

    It's canon apparently.


    Well, as C said, so is what was said in the film about the dark side not being stronger, but "...quicker, easier, more seductive".

    But don't you think that collectively those 10,000 would give Luke a huge, throbbing darkside "nightmare/vision", letting him know that something was massively wrong?

    Not necessarily.


    I still say not figuring it out makes Luke look really weak and not very perceptive.

    I suppose, but I'd rather see the galaxy rally around someone who believes people should have a say in how their government works.

    I can agree with that!

    He could be more definitive for sure.

    Maybe he really hasn't decided himself how many Jedi and Sith there are. Originally, as I said, I think he planned to have just a handful of surviving Jedi, which is why Cade would have been so important. But I think he came to realize that a lot of people would not have been happy about another major purge.


    Charlemagne19
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    So what happens when Lucas and the films contradict?
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    One tends to go with what's shown on the screen I imagine.


    That works for me.

    Quivyr


    I honestly believe he gets a huge kick out of it. I don't think he ever imagined when he conceived the concept of Star Wars it would grow to anywhere near the cultural icon it has become. I believe he thought he had a nice little money maker, but that was about all.

    That's probably true.

    One thing I'm not sure of though. Did Lucas always intend the original movies to be a trilogy, or did those only grow out of the success that the movie became? I think I knew the answer to this once, but I've forgotten.

    Well, as with other things, Lucas seems to say different things at different times. ;)
    BUT, here is what he said in ONCE UPON A GALAXY: A JOURNAL OF THE MAKING OF THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK, which was written in 1980:



    Alan Arnold: Tell me more about the overall concept of the Star Wars

    George Lucas: There are essentially nine films in a series of three trilogies. The first trilogy is about the young Ben Kenobi and the early life of Luke's father when Luke was a little boy. This trilogy takes place some twenty years before teh second trilogy which includes Star Wars(A New Hope) and Empire Strikes Back About a year or two passes between each story of the trilogy and about twenty years pass between the trilogies. The entire saga spans about fifty-five years.

    AA: How much is written?

    GL: I have story treatments on all nine. I also have voluminous notes, histories, and other material I've developed for various purposes. Some of it will be used, some not. Originally, when I worte Star Wars, it developed into an epic on the scale of War and Peace, so big I couldn't possibly make it into a movie. So I cut it in half, but it was still too big, so I cut each half into three parts. I then had material for six movies. After the success of Star Wars, (A New Hope) I added another trilogy but stopped there, primarily because reality took over. After all, it takes three years to prepare and make a Star Wars picture. How many years are left? So I'm still left with three trilogies of nine films. At two hours each, that's about eighteen hours of film!


    I thought this part was interesting too:



    AA: When did you begin to write Star Wars?

    GL: It is difficult to pinpoint the moment when thinking about it evolved into actually putting it down on paper, but it was about 1973.

    AA: How did the characters evolve:

    GL: They all came out of one composi
  9. Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2003
    star 6
    RK_Striker_JK_5

    I can hear that in my head. There's more contradictions coming out of Skywalker Ranch than Borg from a cube!

    [face_laugh]

    SO the Dark Side is like Del Rey planning?

    One could say that.

    The EU is higher canon for me, and the YJK trumps all.

    Mine is pretty much the standard films trump all, then Lucas, then EU.

    There's a German term for that... deriving pleasure from someone else's suffering... san-something?

    It's on the tip of my tongue, but I can't quite place it.

    ChildOfWinds

    Well, as C said, so is what was said in the film about the dark side not being stronger, but "...quicker, easier, more seductive".

    True, but there's a way that can be reconciled with Lucas's statement.

    I still say not figuring it out makes Luke look really weak and not very perceptive.

    I don't, Luke's got Caedus distracting him and 10,000 Sith might not make a big blip on Korriban given it's constant Dark Side aura.

    Maybe he really hasn't decided himself how many Jedi and Sith there are. Originally, as I said, I think he planned to have just a handful of surviving Jedi, which is why Cade would have been so important. But I think he came to realize that a lot of people would not have been happy about another major purge.

    I think you're right, but Legacy #8 says it more definitively.
  10. ChildOfWinds Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2001
    star 5

    RK_Striker_JK_5

    I can hear that in my head. There's more contradictions coming out of Skywalker Ranch than Borg from a cube!

    LOL! True!

    Hmm, something to look forward to. He was the Bothan Jedi Cade turned in earlier, right?

    Right. Then he went to try to rescue him, but failed.

    Well, Luke always used to have dark visions when a dark enemy was about to show up, as he did right before they found Nyax and Lumiya/Jacen. Why wouldn't he have visions of 10,000 Sith???
    Probably an excuse would be 'grief over Mara's death' and 'JINO's on his mind'.


    Kind of lame excuses, especially since I don't think JINO is going to be a Sith Lord for more than 6 months total. So what about all those other years? Why couldn't he perceive them then?

    It happens in real life too, Windy, sad to say.

    Yes, I understand that, Striker. But in Legacy, it didn't seem like Morrigan had fallen out of love with Kol, and Cade was still a baby. So it just seems so odd that she would just leave, especially without ever checking in on them again until after Kol was long dead and Cade was an adult.

    I hope they don't get made. Seeing some people try and reconcile the inevitable contradictions and their heads exploding would not be pretty.

    LOL! Not to mention the fact that I was so disappointed in the prequels. I'm afraid of what the sequel trilogy would be. Lucas seems to have changed a lot, and I haven't liked much of what he's done since RotJ. Of course, I don't like a lot of the EU either, so I don't know which would be worse.

    Tomorrow, I shoukd be able to get a DVD set with the first three pisodes of DR. Who. Would you like a review of them when I watch them?

    I know you didn't address this to me, but I'd like to "hear" your reviews too, Striker.


    Master_Starwalker

    Well, as C said, so is what was said in the film about the dark side not being stronger, but "...quicker, easier, more seductive".

    True, but there's a way that can be reconciled with Lucas's statement.


    Can you explain that?

    I don't, Luke's got Caedus distracting him

    As I said though, that was only for a very short period of time. What about the time BEFORE Caedus and after Caedus?

    and 10,000 Sith might not make a big blip on Korriban given it's constant Dark Side aura.

    The problem is that we now know that they have been other places in the galaxy in disguise.

    I think you're right, but Legacy #8 says it more definitively.

    I don't remember what it says. Can you refresh my memory, please?


  11. Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2003
    star 6
    ChildOfWinds

    Can you explain that?

    There's actually a few. One would be that Yoda was lying so Luke wouldn't use the Dark Side, one would be Yoda is simply mistaken, and one would be that Yoda believes the greatest power is immortality and Sith can't achieve it. The last would be 'quicker, easier, and more seductive' because Sith use their power quicker(while they're alive), easier(they use it like they would any power), and more seductive(the power to dominate others can seem more seductive than simply being immortal and able to influence the world solely by talking to people.)

    As I said though, that was only for a very short period of time. What about the time BEFORE Caedus and after Caedus?

    Before Caedus there was the Vong and the Kiliks/the rebuilding after those crises. After Caedus no idea but there will probably be something.

    The problem is that we now know that they have been other places in the galaxy in disguise.

    We don't know that they used the Force off of Korriban.

    I don't remember what it says. Can you refresh my memory, please?

    It's in a conversation between Calixte, Veed, and Maladi. Veed says they should have waited until all the Jedi were on Ossus.
  12. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    COW,

    Am *I* impatient, JB?

    Yes.

    A little blunt today, are we?

    * You did admit it! ;)

    Right! So much for powerful! Just like Luke has not power over his descendant, Cade. If anything, CADE was able to blackmail LUKE far better with the threat of suicide.

    * You do realise I was being somewhat sarcastic on this point as opposed to serious?

    Or a Sith Lord like Darth Vader!

    * That's the other side, oh wait, there's a 3rd side too - King Whinger aka Anakin Skywalker.

    Well, it SURELY is taking a LONG time to get rid of even ONE major Sith!

    * I'm not convinced that much time has gone by.

    And, it's taking a LONG time to get back to seeing where Marasiah is too.

    * Only because the comics come out, roughly, once a month! ;)

    JB
  13. Nobody145 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 9, 2007
    star 4
    Yeah, Obi-wan's last line sounds awesome, but... he doesn't ever really do that much, he was just a ghost after that. Although its arguable one is invincible as a ghost, but still.

    I miss seeing Marasiah too, but the Legacy comic series is still somewhat in the early stages, we've only had two major arcs so far, and most of the issues have been focused on Cade. Either Marasiah will show up in a non-Cade issue, or her path will cross Cade's eventually.

    And Cade didn't blackmail Luke! Luke just let Cade think he made Luke go away, otherwise, Cade would've kept whining all night! :p Honestly, Luke's been pushing Cade for a while by then it seems, and anyway, if Luke hopefully is at least a little omniscient as a Force ghost, he knows that Cade's Jedi destiny is going to come knocking far sooner than Cade would like without any help from Luke, so no need to piss of Cade even more.

    On the darkside being quicker, easier thing, I interpreted that to mean that the darkside was good for quick power-ups in the short term, but in the long term it usually led to very bad consequences, for instance, insanity, death, etc. For instance, we've seen random Force people become stronger fast using the darkside, but... most of the time by the end they're unstable, to say the least. The lightside leads to slower growth, but Jedi seem generally happy for the most part, when they're in comfortable circumstances (not on the run, held at gunpoint, etc.). So its a trade-off of sanity and happiness for power, but evil people tend not to care.

    And it always takes a long time to get rid of villains. There's Durge's ridiculous healing powers for instance. And how often was Ventress thought dead? And Aurra Sing still isn't dead, dammit.

    And Luke isn't omniscient. At least when he's alive. And usually Luke's visions relate to immediate danger. Actually, most visions, or at least the clear, relatively easy to decipher visions usually relate to the near future, though there are exceptions (Vector crossover being the most recent). Krayt's Order was quiet for decades, and didn't move openly until the time of Luke's great grandson (or possibly more, depending on how many Skywalkers between Ben and Kol). Luke can't know everything, and shouldn't, he's already busy enough fixing the galaxy's current problems to worry about what might be on dead planets.
  14. ChildOfWinds Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2001
    star 5
    Master_Starwalker


    There's actually a few. One would be that Yoda was lying so Luke wouldn't use the Dark Side, one would be Yoda is simply mistaken, and one would be that Yoda believes the greatest power is immortality and Sith can't achieve it.

    Well, I prefer the idea that the Darkside ISN'T stronger, but only "quicker, easier, more seductive".


    Before Caedus there was the Vong and the Kiliks/the rebuilding after those crises.

    There were five years between each of those wars. I still can't believe that Luke wouldn't have been able to sense the presence of the SIth, especially during those times.

    After Caedus no idea but there will probably be something.

    Most likely! ;)

    We don't know that they used the Force off of Korriban.

    I can't imagine that they wouldn't. For Force users, using the FOrce is almost like breathing or a sixth sense.

    It's in a conversation between Calixte, Veed, and Maladi. Veed says they should have waited until all the Jedi were on Ossus.

    Yes, I think that was the retcon that they used to allow for more surviving Jedi than they originally planned to have in the series.

    Jedi Ben

    Am *I* impatient, JB?
    Yes.


    Tell me it isn't so, JB!!! :_|

    A little blunt today, are we?
    * You did admit it!


    ;)


    * You do realise I was being somewhat sarcastic on this point as opposed to serious?

    Yes, but I was serious. I didn't think Obi-wan WAS more powerful after his death. He certainly couldn't affect the living world. And I was also serious when I said that Cade blackmailed Luke.

    * I'm not convinced that much time has gone by.

    Maybe I shouldn't have said " long time" in the chronological sense, but a long time as far as how many issues it is taking to kill one off.


    * Only because the comics come out, roughly, once a month!

    As I've said before, I really don't like the comic book format. I much prefer novels.

    Nobody145

    Yeah, Obi-wan's last line sounds awesome, but... he doesn't ever really do that much, he was just a ghost after that.

    Exactly!

    And Cade didn't blackmail Luke! Luke just let Cade think he made Luke go away, otherwise, Cade would've kept whining all night!

    LOL! Yeah, I'm sure that's the reason Luke left. ;)

    Honestly, Luke's been pushing Cade for a while by then it seems, and anyway, if Luke hopefully is at least a little omniscient as a Force ghost, he knows that Cade's Jedi destiny is going to come knocking far sooner than Cade would like without any help from Luke, so no need to piss of Cade even more.

    So why show up at all? And apparently, he's been doing this for a long time.

    On the darkside being quicker, easier thing, I interpreted that to mean that the darkside was good for quick power-ups in the short term, but in the long term it usually led to very bad consequences, for instance, insanity, death, etc.

    Yes, or maybe even mistakes through haste, arrogance, or wrecklessness.

    And it always takes a long time to get rid of villains. There's Durge's ridiculous healing powers for instance. And how often was Ventress thought dead? And Aurra Sing still isn't dead, dammit.

    Why is it so hard to kill off villains anyway? It doesn't seem to take so long to get rid of heroes. (Nelani is a case in point.)

    And Luke isn't omniscient.

    No, that's true. BUT, I don't like the way in which he has been written so often as knowing, seeing, perceiving, and hearing NOTHING. :(

    Actually, most visions, or at least the clear, relatively easy to decipher visions usually relate to the near future,

    But if the Sith are waiting in the wings and running around the galdaxy doing whatever they wish (as apparently they are in LotF), then the danger, the problem is not only in the near future, it's in the PRESENT!!!!! :(

    Luke can't know everything,

    It would certainly be nice if he knew a few things though. ;( :( [fac
  15. Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2003
    star 6
    ChildOfWinds

    Well, I prefer the idea that the Darkside ISN'T stronger, but only "quicker, easier, more seductive".

    So do I.

    There were five years between each of those wars. I still can't believe that Luke wouldn't have been able to sense the presence of the SIth, especially during those times.

    I can, Luke's not going to sense someone hiding from across the galaxy.

    I can't imagine that they wouldn't. For Force users, using the FOrce is almost like breathing or a sixth sense.

    It is for most, yet we have Palpatine not using the Force as Chancellor. I see no reason these Sith couldn't do that.

    Yes, I think that was the retcon that they used to allow for more surviving Jedi than they originally planned to have in the series.

    It does seem like a canonization of John's statement.
  16. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    BTW, congradulations for my getting a Nintendo DS at last!

    I also got the Phoenix Wright games for it.

    A parody for the kind of humor that makes it great (albeit, it's a dub)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFldBVWFgWo&feature=related
  17. Quivyr Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2007
    star 1
    ChildofWinds:

    Well, Luke always used to have dark visions when a dark enemy was about to show up, as he did right before they found Nyax and Lumiya/Jacen. Why wouldn't he have visions of 10,000 Sith???
    Probably an excuse would be 'grief over Mara's death' and 'JINO's on his mind'.


    I think we're all missing the point of the Dark Side here. It's very nature is to stay hidden in the shadows. Staying invisible in the Force could be as natural as breathing to a trained Sith. I think a good analogy would be to think of them as a sort of ambush predator. They can be found, but you have to rustle the bushes to do it. The only indication we would have of the Korriban folk is the ship that attacked the Falcon at Lumiya's asteroid.

    Mysterious? Yes. But enough to have Luke start a search for these people after the events of LoTF? Debatable. It could easily be seen as smuggler or pirate factions that have an axe to grind against Leia or Han. They have gained enemies over the years. Although the fate of the Sith Meditation Sphere would certainly be worth investigating. That I will grant you. But...the way it played out left almost nothing to go on for future investigations.


    On the other hand, Jedi can hide in the Force as well. However, they consciously have to do so. I think the dark side aspect of this as more passive. I could also argue that Luke's vision was of a progression, (the one where a man's voice kept saying 'Mine')starting from Lumiya, and ending with Krayt. Everyone assumes that vision had to do with Jacen. Maybe it didn't. Maybe Jacen is just a distraction to that vision, and Luke is misinterpreting it. Easy to do considering current circumstances.

  18. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    COW,

    Yes, but I was serious. I didn't think Obi-wan WAS more powerful after his death. He certainly couldn't affect the living world.

    * Hmm, then the suggestion Luke use the Force at the Death Star attack and to go to Dagobah aren't affecting the living world greatly?

    And I was also serious when I said that Cade blackmailed Luke.

    * And, to borrow a line of Charles', Luke looks at him like he's an idiot and leaves. i.e. If you're going to be that childish there's no point to this..

    Maybe I shouldn't have said " long time" in the chronological sense, but a long time as far as how many issues it is taking to kill one off.

    * This is somewhat due to the great development that has taken place over the course of the last 6-7 years in comics: Namely that the writing improved greatly and there was an increased focus on characterisation and plot logic, coupled with far better art than was previously technologically possible.

    * The result is that the limited space in a monthly format is used in a different way, plots are more gradual to enable a deeper, more satisfying quality of story. There's also an element of structuring for easy collection as TPB sales are increasing, so where there may have been a 1-2 issue story, there's now 6. Only the best writers can justify and use such space to its full potential.

    JB
  19. ChildOfWinds Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2001
    star 5

    Master_Starwalker
    I can, Luke's not going to sense someone hiding from across the galaxy.

    But then we're supposed to believe that baby Ben Skywalker could feel his father's pain from half a galaxy away after Anakin SOlo's death when his Aunt Leia was right in the same room with him, crying her heart out and THAT didn't seem to bother him...

    It is for most, yet we have Palpatine not using the Force as Chancellor. I see no reason these Sith couldn't do that.

    But there are 10,000 of them, Master Sky! I would think the sheer numbers alone would have worked against them. After all, at least ONE of them would have likely slipped and used the FOrce off of Korriban in all those years.

    It does seem like a canonization of John's statement.

    Yep! I'm just glad John changed his mind.


    Charlemagne19

    BTW, congradulations for my getting a Nintendo DS at last!

    I also got the Phoenix Wright games for it.


    Congratulations on your new acquisition, C! As you know, I don't play video games myself. Though it was pretty amazing watching my four year old nephew playing with a Wii game yesterday with no problem. I am beginning to feel like an extinct dinosaur. I'm wondering if I'm the only person in this galaxy who doesn't play them. ;)

    Quivyr

    I think we're all missing the point of the Dark Side here. It's very nature is to stay hidden in the shadows. Staying invisible in the Force could be as natural as breathing to a trained Sith.

    I guess you could be right. Still, it does make Luke and the other Jedi look like idiots if they never locate the Sith, especially when there are SO many.

    I think a good analogy would be to think of them as a sort of ambush predator. They can be found, but you have to rustle the bushes to do it.

    I'm getting a funny picture in my head here, Q. ;)

    Although the fate of the Sith Meditation Sphere would certainly be worth investigating. That I will grant you.

    I agree about that sphere. I was actually quite disappointed that it ended up in Sith hands again. As I said, I was rather hoping that Ben would "tame" it and "turn it back to the good side". I think it would have been a great little ship for Ben, almost a companion as well as a vehicle. The poor kid has no friends his own age, and he doesn't even have a droid like his father does.

    Everyone assumes that vision had to do with Jacen. Maybe it didn't. Maybe Jacen is just a distraction to that vision, and Luke is misinterpreting it. Easy to do considering current circumstances.

    You make a good point.

    By the way, what did you think of the quotes from that Lucas interview that was done during the filming of TESB about how many episodes of SW there were supposed to be?


    Jedi Ben

    * Hmm, then the suggestion Luke use the Force at the Death Star attack

    I think Luke should have figured that out for himself actually.

    and to go to Dagobah aren't affecting the living world greatly?

    Now this one, WAS pretty important, I'll grant you that. I think he should have told Luke about Yoda sooner though. And he WAS merely a messenger. He wasn't all that "powerful" as he claimed. PLUS, if he would have lived instead of died, he could have TAKEN Luke to Yoda himself, and a lot sooner too.

    * And, to borrow a line of Charles', Luke looks at him like he's an idiot and leaves. i.e. If you're going to be that childish there's no point to this..

    That WAS childish of Cade, but leaving made it just look like Cade had won.

    * This is somewhat due to the great development that has taken place over the course of the last 6-7 years in comics: Namely that the writing improved greatly and there was an increased focus on characterisation and plot logic, coupled with far better art than was previously technologically possible.

    Okay, that's fine. I like characterization and pretty pictures. BUT, by now ONE fairly important Sith should have bought the farm. If Talon is dead,
  20. Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2003
    star 6
    ChildOfWinds

    But then we're supposed to believe that baby Ben Skywalker could feel his father's pain from half a galaxy away after Anakin SOlo's death when his Aunt Leia was right in the same room with him, crying her heart out and THAT didn't seem to bother him..

    Ben is his son. It's similar to how Palpatine couldn't sense Luke on his way to Endor yet Vader could.

    But there are 10,000 of them, Master Sky! I would think the sheer numbers alone would have worked against them. After all, at least ONE of them would have likely slipped and used the FOrce off of Korriban in all those years.

    One might have, but we don't know that they used it in any noticeable way.
  21. RK_Striker_JK_5 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2003
    star 7
    CHarlemagne19:
    Sure
    I'll get on it as soon as possible. :)

    BTW, congradulations for my getting a Nintendo DS at last!
    Congrats, Charles. Have fun with it.

    Quivyr:
    And the number of the counting shall be three. Not two, and not four, but three. Five... is right out! (obligatory Monty Python and the Holy Grail reference)
    Of course the obligatory 'none shall pass' from Ganner and Anakin doing his own Black Knight impression in ROTS. :D

    Thinking about it the way you put it, I'm forced to agree
    Yeah. Sad part is... it's also a semi-serious concern, too.

    And a YJK animated series would have been unreal.
    You have no idea... I'm probably one of the biggest YJK fans on the boards. The YJK GOT me into SW. Not the TTT, not the Marvel comics or even the OT itself. I thought Vader was a kriffin' man with asthma when I picked up 'Heirs to the Force'-I kid you not. It's the foundation-the bedrock-of my SW fandom.

    I think we're all missing the point of the Dark Side here. It's very nature is to stay hidden in the shadows. Staying invisible in the Force could be as natural as breathing to a trained Sith.
    Ah, but how many of them are trained enough to do that? Do they hold classes?

    "Okay, class. Today we learn about-"

    "I wanna learn Force Lightning!"

    "What about our cool black and red tattoos?"

    "Teacher, Gusd is being mean to me!"

    "I'm supposed to be mean to you! We're Sith!"

    ChildOfWinds:
    I still say not figuring it out makes Luke look really weak and not very perceptive.
    I'd assume he'd get some sort of bad feeling... although the good guys get a bad feeling if they burn dinner. ;)

    Well, as with other things, Lucas seems to say different things at different times.
    Probably why I've learned to ignore canon...

    Right! So much for powerful! Just like Luke has not power over his descendant, Cade. If anything, CADE was able to blackmail LUKE far better with the threat of suicide.
    He could've just been taunting him, too. The Jedi equivelant of 'Nyah, nyah!'

    Yes, I already wouldn't mind a reboot. I'm even willing to go back to the end of RotJ and start over, but I would also be willing to start over with the end of Union or the Young Jedi Knights books....definitely BEFORE the NJO!
    Same here, pretty much. Before everything got seriously messed up.

    LOL! True!
    Hmm, all I do is make you people laugh! :( :_| ;)

    Right. Then he went to try to rescue him, but failed.
    Cool, thanks.

    Kind of lame excuses, especially since I don't think JINO is going to be a Sith Lord for more than 6 months total. So what about all those other years? Why couldn't he perceive them then?
    I don't know... it would be beyond suspension of disbelief that Luke couldn't sense so much DS gathering at one place.

    LOL! Not to mention the fact that I was so disappointed in the prequels. I'm afraid of what the sequel trilogy would be. Lucas seems to have changed a lot, and I haven't liked much of what he's done since RotJ. Of course, I don't like a lot of the EU either, so I don't know which would be worse.
    I'd shudder to think of Han and Leia's relationship if the sequels were ever made...

    "I don't like carbonite."

    I know you didn't address this to me, but I'd like to "hear" your reviews too, Striker.
    COol. :)

    So why show up at all? And apparently, he's been doing this for a long time.
    He has to learn how to be obtuse and confusing first. ;)

    Why is it so hard to kill off villains anyway? It doesn't seem to take so long to get rid of heroes. (Nelani is a case in point.)
    And Lusa and Lyric and Anakin and Chewie and YJK-real Jacen...



    Master_Starwalker:
    [face_laugh]
    So, do you just read my posts to see if I can make you laugh? ;)

    SO the Dark Side is like Del Rey planning?

    One could say that.

    It does fit...

    Mine is pretty much the standard films trump all, then Lucas, then EU.
    I often wo
  22. ChildOfWinds Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2001
    star 5

    Master_Starwalker

    Ben is his son. It's similar to how Palpatine couldn't sense Luke on his way to Endor yet Vader could.

    That was actually a good answer, MS, but I STILL think Luke should be able to sense all of these sith, especially since not all of them are masters of the Force.

    RK_Striker_JK_5

    You have no idea... I'm probably one of the biggest YJK fans on the boards. The YJK GOT me into SW. Not the TTT, not the Marvel comics or even the OT itself.

    It was the OT that got me into SW.

    I thought Vader was a kriffin' man with asthma when I picked up 'Heirs to the Force'-I kid you not.

    LOL!

    Staying invisible in the Force could be as natural as breathing to a trained Sith.

    Ah, but how many of them are trained enough to do that? Do they hold classes?


    Maybe...and certainly the newest students might not have the control necessary to stay invisible in the Force.

    "Okay, class. Today we learn about-"
    "I wanna learn Force Lightning!"
    "What about our cool black and red tattoos?"
    "Teacher, Gusd is being mean to me!"
    "I'm supposed to be mean to you! We're Sith!"


    LOL! Very clever, Striker! I love your humor.

    I'd assume he'd get some sort of bad feeling... although the good guys get a bad feeling if they burn dinner.

    LOL!!!

    Yes, I already wouldn't mind a reboot. I'm even willing to go back to the end of RotJ and start over, but I would also be willing to start over with the end of Union or the Young Jedi Knights books....definitely BEFORE the NJO!
    Same here, pretty much. Before everything got seriously messed up.


    Exactly!!!

    LOL! True!
    Hmm, all I do is make you people laugh!


    Hey! That's a very special and important service that you provide for us!!! Heaven knows we don't get much humor or light-hearted stuff in Del Rey's books!

    Speaking of which, WHY aren't they announcing who got the new literature contract, I wonder?

    I don't know... it would be beyond suspension of disbelief that Luke couldn't sense so much DS gathering at one place.

    That's the way I feel about it too.

    So why show up at all? And apparently, he's been doing this for a long time.
    He has to learn how to be obtuse and confusing first.


    I guess...

    Why is it so hard to kill off villains anyway? It doesn't seem to take so long to get rid of heroes. (Nelani is a case in point.)
    And Lusa and Lyric and Anakin and Chewie and YJK-real Jacen...


    Yes, and Mara too. :(

    SO the Dark Side is like Del Rey planning?

    One could say that.
    It does fit...


    Quicker and easier, yes, I don't know that I'd agree about the "More Seductive" part though. ;)

    I often wonder how I'd view SW if the OT got me into it, rather than the YJK...

    Star Wars, a New Hope was first for me, and it remains my favorite and the standard by which all others are judged. ;) It's the pinnacle.



  23. Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2003
    star 6
    RK_Striker_JK_5

    So, do you just read my posts to see if I can make you laugh?

    Yep. :p

    It does fit...

    So Vergere was just an attempt to make people react more kindly to Del Rey's planning style...

    I often wonder how I'd view SW if the OT got me into it, rather than the YJK...

    I wonder some things like that too. I know I view it really differently from the people who were introduced to Star Wars by the Prequels for instance.

    ChildOfWinds

    That was actually a good answer, MS, but I STILL think Luke should be able to sense all of these sith, especially since not all of them are masters of the Force.

    I think he should if they ever assembled en masse off of Korriban, but one or two flying under Luke's radar given that the Dark Side is hard to see I think it acceptable.

    It was the OT that got me into SW.

    Same here.
  24. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    COW,

    I think Luke should have figured that out for himself actually.

    * How? Luke was utterly unused to the notion of the Force, never mind that he could actually use it. Ability wasn't in question but understanding. What Kenobi does is help Luke undergo a paradigm shift in seconds from one perception of the world to another, with a shifting of what's possible and what's not. Even with being utterly new at it, Luke has enough ability to pull off a shot deemed impossible but he couldn't have done it alone.

    Now this one, WAS pretty important, I'll grant you that. I think he should have told Luke about Yoda sooner though.

    * He couldn't - ESB wasn't written! If you want a story reason though, you could blame it on Anakin - due to that experience Yoda and ObiWan are going to be a bit more choosy about who they teach power.

    And he WAS merely a messenger. He wasn't all that "powerful" as he claimed. PLUS, if he would have lived instead of died, he could have TAKEN Luke to Yoda himself, and a lot sooner too.

    * Except I'd say ObiWan knew that Luke would be better without him to fall back on.

    That WAS childish of Cade, but leaving made it just look like Cade had won.

    * There is that wonderful panel where Luke just looks at Cade and it says everything about Cade's act, victory isn't is.

    Okay, that's fine. I like characterization and pretty pictures. BUT, by now ONE fairly important Sith should have bought the farm. If Talon is dead, fine. If she isn't, then it's dragging things out much too long, I think, sort of like NJO and LotF.

    * No, I dislike greatly the notion of a quota system, better by far the story is allowed to proceed at its own pace and kill characters off at the right time, NJO tried to do that artificially with the 5 HBs and look what happened.

    * Now onto a popular topic: Sith School, here's my version:

    * The Sith have decided, with great reluctance, that the Jedi were right on one point: Get 'em young. So they have a class of 5-year Sith students, Force Lightning and TK is forbidden on pain of limb amputation.

    * The kids undergo a maths test, the teacher marks them. Those who got 10 out of 10 go to one side of the room, those who did less well to the other. Teacher ignites its lightsaber and executes all those who scored less than ten. Why? "Only a Sith believes in absolutes."

    JB
  25. J_K_DART Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2001
    star 5
    Maybe we're missing something re: the Sith. Consider; in the NJO, the Masters remain on Yavin 4 to present an illusion against the Peace Brigade. Now what if something similar were the case...

    First stage of being a Sith: you remain on Korriban. A handful of Masters are on Korriban, their efforts always focused towards shielding the planet in the Force so that the Sith students can develop. It's only when you've mastered the arts of hiding in the Force that you're allowed off-planet, away from the Masters' supervision. So we have, say, a handful of Sith Masters (wrong term I know, but, ah well!) who are responsible for keeping the Jedi 'in the dark' so to speak. This way not all of the Sith need to be masters at hiding.
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