SOS - Luke Skywalker - Version 3.0

I don't mind the Luke vs. Lumiya duel in Inferno too much, as Lumiya was hurling hostages left and right at Luke, not to mention egging them on to attack Luke. Its sorta like how Yoda was easily winning against Dooku, but then when Dooku dropped something on Obi-wan and Anakin, Yoda had to concentrate on saving them, letting Dooku get away.

The Sacrifice duel was just annoying, as it was very short, and we know Lumiya was ready to die to help get the blame off Jacen. Luke of course didn't know that at the time, but afterwards, when he finds out for sure that Lumiya didn't kill Mara, then he knows that this was Lumiya's way of getting at him one last time.

I know Dark Nest Trilogy isn't the most... popular piece of literature in recent years, but if nothing else, it had a powerful Luke taking on both Raynar and Lomi Plo, both of who had their Force powers pumped up by the Killik nests and collective mind.

The part where Luke pinned Caedus to the chair was awesome, as that just showed how big of a gap there was between Luke and Caedus, even after Caedus became an official Darth Sith Lord. What was annoying was how later on in the book, when he walks in on his nephew brutally torturing his son, Luke doesn't pin Caedus to a wall and start slashing. Or, if Luke's being merciful, at least pin him to a wall then knock him out. Heck, Luke was winning the conventional duel, and Ben's distractions let Caedus survive, not Caedus' own skill. Although I'm still not sure what was the exact result was, as Luke doesn't dwell on how he was doing against Caedus too much (he's brooding more over how close Ben was to the darkside), and whenever Caedus reflects on it, he thinks how great he did against Luke Skywalker.

There's a fine balance concerning how powerful Luke should be, and unfortunately... for story purposes, all-powerful Skywalker simply doesn't work. Anakin (Skywalker) was very powerful and he never even reached the age of thirty, as he was burnt alive and wasn't as powerful afterwards (the exact cause is debatable, but after Mustafar, Vader definitely wasn't powerful enough to overthrow Palpatine). Luke has had decades to refine his own skills, but at the same time, flashy displays of power aren't really good as power corrupts and what not. Also, Luke's own physical age slows him down a little, but still left him far, far ahead of his neice and nephew at the end of the Yuuzhan Vong War (with how Luke was slicing through warriors left and right on their climb up the stairs in TUF, and Jaina and Jacen were having a hard time handling the leftovers that Luke didn't take down). There was Jacen's temporary "shining" moment, but that can be chalked up as one of those temporary "superpower" moments. I think Luke's had them occasionally.

Anyway, the worst problem is that even though Luke's getting older, he's had decades to train, so even now, with Caedus with his darkside power-up, is still not quite at Luke's level. He's a match for Luke in a duel, sure, but Caedus isn't really eager to go another round with Luke alone. Hence why he has lots of YVH on standby. Its arguable that Caedus is gaining power at a faster rate than Luke, but in terms of mental stability... well, Luke's reeling from grief, but still somewhat active (at least after Ben's pep talk), while Caedus is obviously losing it, as is the fate of most manaical Sith. Which means its up to the next generation to try to take down Caedus, unless Luke recovers that fast, but... with the current cover, almost anybody (meaning Luke, Jaina or even Ben) might get to solve the Caedus problem. Too bad two out of the three still aren't Force powerhouses. Oh well, there's still one book to go so who knows.

 

On the move, all I'll say is by way of a Babylon 5 quote:

"I'd look at this as an opportunity Commander and not a burden."

I like how Horsey and Jello have welcomed to this patch, we also get to inflict our particular brand of anarchy upon EUC. Does they know what they've let in?

Now, where were we? I know MS86 and I were discussing comics and SW gaming. I'm still hacked off that The Order has been cancelled, a Messiah Complex rant is probably on the cards and scattered across all this will be various SW comments.

JB

 

Just a post to everybody, what do you think was the best Luke book up to date ? has the SOS have any impact on the current status of Luke ?

and what do you think was his best feat ? it could be any great act he has done for the greater good.


THEN they need to think: "How would I write Yoda if he were TWICE AS POWERFUL?"

Then they'll figure out how to write Luke.

i agree with this, in the clone wars micro series they had no problem having Yoda display his prowess. yet in the books we see Luke strained with one fighter. it just doesn't add up. I mean we hear how powerful Luke is yet we haven't seen any display that's more powerful than yoda other than reaching to the heart of the force and defeating Palpatine.

JB I see you made it, yes I agree they don't know what hell they unleash upon themselves..... jk

back to our comic discussion, How do you know the Order is cancelled ? I know issue 10 is released in April, Thor gets a blast from the past with a look back at his past and present history in April as well. To be honest I have been avoiding X-men, they lost their appeal which goes back to their roots, being different. X-men first class seems rather simplified with one team rather than five, haven't read it though but I bet things weren't as complicated as they're now, like Jean not dying for the 3rd time.

ok so elektra and blackbolt were the first skrulls who do you think is the next one ?

it's sad there are no previews for Thor #6, I mean the delay is pain enough why dont they throw us a bone ?

as for BND, I'll give one TPB a chance, I still hate web shooters. isn't it ironic Thor breaks out of the cycle of Ragnarok and Spidey reverts to his previous cycle ?

for the second volume of Legacy, shards, would you recommend it ?

also they're killing off Bats ? I mean I don't read DC but what are they doing ? trying to follow the Captain America approach ? how many fans will DC lose after this one ? also why does Bruce have a son ?


well for SW gaming what's yur opinion or Force Unleashed ? I know your a sky jockey rather than a jedi hippie but have you seen the trailer ? as for consoles I have sold my Xbox 360, I recommend ppl avoid the system, it's basicaly faulty hardware. for now I'll see how much a psp will cost, since the DS doesn't have the power i'm looking for.

 

Yeah... I'm not sure that I buy the Clone Wars microseries as being an accurate reflection of Yoda's power. Or anyone's....

 

However, the problem with Luke being so powerful is that he could pretty much become his own dues ex machina. Hell, we saw that pretty early on with Courtship. And let's not forget how much folks loved it when Hambly tried to handicap him in COTJ.

It's a fine line. Luke is so powerful that he really needs to assume the Yoda role as mentor, but as the previous incarnation of the thread so verbosely proved, many fans don't want him to gracefully retire to the sidelines. I would think that's quite a dilemma for Del Rey and the authors, which might be why they went with a much more emotional threat this time...

 

I'd love for Luke to become a wise mentor. But then, I think his best portrayal in years has been his Force Ghost in Star Wars Legacy so that's hardly surprising.

 

I think you're pretty much spot on there, Dunc.

Personally - and I know I'm not exactly going with the flow of the majority of SOS - I'd be absolutely fine with Luke being in the "Yoda" role. It's just difficult to excuse such a role for him when we have all these "Big Galactic Threats". Luke's saga, I feel, is done... yet, as long as we have the BGTs, there's no believeable way to have him sit out. And then, of course, there are few realistic ways to justify why he's not a Deus Ex Machina.

Unless, perhaps, everyone's interepreted Lucas wrong and Luke *doesn't* have the potential of Daddy Vader....

 

I don't mind having Luke as the Yoda Grandmaster role, the problem is that if he just sat around the Temple, then that might look a litle irresponsible. During the prequel era, we had Obi-wan, Anakin, or in the comics people like Quinlan, Aalya, Tholme, etc. to solve problems while Yoda could be the grandmaster. There's a Jedi Council again, but it still seems like Luke has to do everything. Ben's shaping up nicely, and Anakin (Solo) had a few novels focusing on him mainly, but it still feels like Luke's obligated to solve everything.

Actually, during LotF, there's been some hints about there being a bit too much hero worship focusing on Luke. For instance, Luke didn't do anything about Jacen for a while as Mara told him not to do anything about Jacen for a while, so the Jedi didn't really do much for the first half of the series.

The Young Jedi Knights (and even Junior) had Luke as the mentor role, and that series worked out fine. Luke still showed up for final battles, but the next generation could go and usually solve their own adventures.

And yeah, Force ghost Luke has been one of the better portrayals of Luke in years. We still get to see Luke, but as he's a ghost, he can't really do much and doesn't seem stupid for doing so. Its actually a testament to Luke's willingness to help out that he still bothers to keep on trying to help the galaxy even after his death. And he's powerful enough to keep appearing to someone he probably wasn't close too (depending on how many generations are between Luke and Cade).

 

There is a simple solution for Del Rey. Don't always write BGT's.

I personally, would also love him to play a more Yoda role, but remember that Yoda also stepped out to fight once in a while, so there is nothing wrong with Luke serving in a Yoda-esque role.

The next generation needs its literary space to grow, and I fear that DR have been starving it. As much as they've been mishandling Luke, they've also been mishandling the next generation. I can't really find it in myself to really root for Ben, Jacen is just a shmables of a chracter now, the only thought that I have about Jaina is who is she going to end up with. She just doesn't really function as a separate character.

I hope we do get a Jaina or a Ben focused novel soon, something to get us to like them, and connect with them cos' the next generation sorely needs to take a step forward into the spotlight, and Luke needs to step back into a role more appropriate for his character.

 

That's what I was getting at

I can't disagree with any of that.

 

The best portrayal for Luke for me was... wait for it... the YJK version. The perfect mix of butt-kicker/mentor. He knew when to step back and when to kick butt and take names.

I can't take JINO seriously as his opponent because... it's JINO! I laugh and weep at the thought of him being threat one without massive dumbing and powering down of Luke. Mara had to fall for a trick she already saw through to die. For the love of Primus...

 

Gosh.. REALLY?!

I had no idea you liked YJK so much, Striker.

I suppose you speak truly.

Can I ask why you still refer to him as Jacen In Name Only when he's not Jacen In Name?

Is it becuase other people still call him Jacen? Will you stop when he's finally addressed as Darth Caedus exclusively?

As for JI-uh, I mean, Caedus' power levels... I'd say that the authors are treating him almost as badly as Luke. In DNT he was a *powerhouse*... five years later, he seems rather weaker than he should.

 

It's true, Ulicus. I hide my love for the YJK well, though.

No, I won't stop. I find it laughable at best that he's a Sith, and I also think he's the stupidest Sith in history, the only other one coming close Maul.

And I coined JINO, so no way I'll stop using it. And also, it is a protest against what they've done with him since VP. He is Jacen In Name Only.

 

Not just looking. In Inferno, when fighting Jacen, Luke is surprised that Jacen is as powerful as a Jedi Master, when already in TUF Jacen was shown to be more powerful than a powerful Jedi Master like Kyp Durron. So, for some reason Jacen has gone through a massive downgrading when it comes to Force powers and skills.

 

Good points.

I don't understand why they suddenly made the switch between "Jedi Master = Wise", to "Jedi Master = A Certain Power Level".

It's well stupid. Tionne is a Jedi Master - she's not some uber powerful person.

 

I thought that Jedi Master was a title conferred upon a Jedi (for experience, going thru trials, responsibility etc...), it should never have been read into as indicating anything about power levels.

And Maul at least had the cool double lightsaber thing going for him .

 

In all honesty, I haven't noticed a Jacen power drain. But at the same time, remember that Jacen is almost solely using the dark side now. It would make sense that he would have been stronger in the DNT because he was using both light and dark side powers and abilities freely and immersing himself in both creeds in the name of the Potentium. But now, he is resorting to just one side of the Force to become a Sith, and as a result he is going to be weaker in the Force because he's caught off access to several parts of the Force.

However, I don't understand why Jacen can't make Luke sweat. Luke is not all-powerful, it is possible to defeat him. I think Jacen can and should give Luke a run for it, considering the amount of training Jacen has taken and Jacen's relative youth in comparison to Luke. In fact, Jacen could and should even be able to best Luke if the fight's on Jacen's terms, much like the way his fight with Mara was.

RK_Striker_JK_5:

No, I won't stop. I find it laughable at best that he's a Sith, and I also think he's the stupidest Sith in history, the only other one coming close Maul.

How would you prefer him? Jacen was unpopular either way. He was either holier-than-thou Potentium or a Sith Lord. At least as a Sith we all know he's a bad guy. I also think some of Jacen's tactics has shown intelligence. However, insanity's crept into him and that's also allowing him to make foolish mistakes. I don't think Jacen's overall plotting and the way he's subverted the Galactic Alliance to his needs makes Jacen stupid at all.

Rather, a crazed genius. Capable of absolute brilliance and asinine mistakes at the same time.

Before Jacen completely lost it in the last three books, he was showing more flashes of brilliance and capability.

Now he is making the asinine mistakes that will probably lead to his downfall.

 

I use the JINO moniker occasionally as a derogatory term as in universe, yes, he's a Sith Lord, he's made his grand sacrifice (his relationship with Ben, Mara was just collateral damage ), but I still view him as an egostitical, overinflated Jacen so his Caedus name is fake but he's not really worthy of the Jacen name either, so... um, where was I? Oh right, I just use the term to insult Caedus.

And I view the Jedi Master title to mean a Jedi Knight has reached a certain level of experience. Tionne's a Master, so is Cighal, but neither are powerhouses like Luke or Kyp, but both are just as important to the Order as Luke or Kyp, so they more than deserve the title of Jedi Master. Power and skill probably have to do with one becoming "worthy" enough of being called a Jedi Master, but healing and research are also good enough reasons. Luke had to declare himself a Jedi Master as... there weren't really any Jedi around, so Luke had to move up from Knight sooner or later. 4,000 years ago Ulic said there wasn't any definite boundary for when one moved up from Knight to Master, and I like that idea, that Master isn't a matter of clocking enough Jedi hours or successful missions or something, there's just a certain indefinable border that you'll know you've passed it when you've passed it.

Pointedly, in LotF (Exile, I think) when Omas and Nithal try to push Luke to make Jacen a Master as a PR stunt, Luke says no. I can't remember if it was Exile or not (maybe it was Tempest), but Luke says outright that he doesn't think Jacen's ready to be a Master at that point, and that perhaps he won't ever be ready. Which is really a big drop from when Jacen was counseling Luke near the end of the Yuuzhan Vong War and how during the DNT Luke and Mara were thinking that Jacen might make a nice successor to Luke someday. For self-centered people, they probably think they passed the limit to becoming a Jedi Master when they were born (Jacen, or Asajj Ventress), but its usually better to have the title conferred on you by peers. Short of a really awesome move like fading into the Force upon death, although its a bit late at that point to worry about titles, but I just mean certain feats that are definitely Master level. Although in Luke's case, he had no peers as there were no Jedi, so he can be excused for making himself a Jedi Master as he was the whole of the Order at that point anyway.

And yeah, YJK Luke was awesome, in retrospect. He wasn't the star of the novels, but he was still there. The novels were kiddy, as they were meant for young adults, but they still had that nice Star Wars feeling to them. I remember the very... abrupt jump from how happy the atmosphere of the YJK series was to the NJO. I know the NJO was meant to be realistic, but... well, LotF had a short peacetime segment at the beginning of Betrayal before everything went to pieces. Too bad Mara wasn't there, but VotF hadn't been published during most of the YJK books, I think, though Survivor's Quest has shown that Luke and Mara were busy with other stuff even after they were married.

And I think Caedus' stupid mistakes are just part of the normal fall to darkness/evil. Anakin (Skywalker) was never the brightest bulb, and he got a rude awakening of all his flaws when Obi-wan defeated him in a lightsaber duel, so he spent most of his time as Vader as... extremely bitter and grumpy. Caedus is at the point Anakin was when he was boasting about bringing "peace and security to my new Empire", huge ego and not smart enough to recognize that. Of course, Jacen made the extremely foolish mistake of thinking there can be such a thing as a good Sith. Even Luke never quite hit that low when he apprenticed to Palpatine briefly, as the whole time Luke just meant to infiltrate the darkside, to kill Palpatine and his clones. Jacen willingly embraced the Sith philosophy, especially as he's still on his "there is no darkside" kick.

Anyway, Jacen was never that smart. He can lie and use brute force, b

 

A place about Luke - I'm in!

That is just silly, a very big flaw in the LOTF series. I don't see why would some Council members think Jacen should be given the rank of a Master. Yes, he may be quite powerful, but strength and the ability to manipulate do not make him worthy of the title.
Ever since the ESB, the picture of the Jedi Master is someone wise, not necessarily visibly powerful. Like Yoda.

A good point. Personally, I like the Jedi a lot, but these days everything seems to be centered around them while the rest of the galaxy falls into the background. The old days of SW books were full of adventures where the Jedi cooperated with other people (like Zayne & co, for example). In LOTF, they seem to be cut off, distant from everyone else. At what point did the Order grow so much to forget the others, I wonder? Since NJO... But even in the Dark Nest, there was this cooperation - Jae & Tarfang, Ghent, Jag, etc. In LOTF, some good non-Force-using characters are rarity, unfortunately.
Furthermore, the Luke's role in the Jedi Order is presented in a confusing way, especially in the Inferno. They way the Jedi depend on him doesn't really seem natural. Yes, he is a great Master, a person who established the Order anew and was the only hope in the galaxy. But those times are gone. The Order grew and evolved. Being a great fan of Luke, I still see him as a leader and a great advisor, but there must be other people among the Jedi who can think with their own heads. I just think that Luke thought his Jedi better than just to sit lazily and do nothing while he mourns and Jacen gloats walking around like a peacock. Luke is allowed to mourn, imo. It looked a bit miserable in the book, but he has that right. He may be uber Jedi Master, the most powerful person in the galaxy, but he is still only a human. The other Jedi should have done something. Both to help him go through the difficult situation he was in, and to stop the Order being so defenseless. None dared to act as if they all need Luke's permission to move even a little finger. Luke did a better job than that by forming the New Jedi Order, I just think the authors failed to show it.

 

Nope.

The Sith don't deny themselves any aspect of the Force. They have, in the words of Dooku "both eyes open", it's the Jedi who keep one eye closed - and quite right, too.

 

I think the more recent books have been rather shallow in terms of character development. They try to tell stories that are grand in scope, but they overlook some necessary character and plot development. The story is there but it just doesn't seem to be sharp. Or we see leaps in progress that don't spring from development.

I really hope they return to a narrower focus in the near future.

 

But, uh...he's not. There's your problem. He's not "Jacen In Name" at all anymore. Your phrase is outmoded, I'm afraid.

 

"NEJINA"!!!! (Not Even Jacen In Name Anymore)

 

---

Master Starwaler posted

[blockquote]Just a post to everybody, what do you think was the best Luke book up to date ? has the SOS have any impact on the current status of Luke ? [/blockquote]

[hr]

Let's see...the best Luke book...The Darktide book where Luke rescues Jacen while dueling 2 Vong...that or the Rebel Dream book where they go to Yuzhantar (Vongified Coruscant)...with perhaps a new title-holder coming from MWS. [face_grin] Most of the books either get him a tad too weak or a tad too strong, but then I've never really liked flashy displays of the force from either Jedi or Sith. I prefer the balance GL established in the movies...You don't see Vader or Palps or Obi-wan or Yoda smacking ships out of the sky like that one Jedi in the JAT did or playing voyeur on a moment in the past like Cadeus does...but I digress on the subject.


[hr]
Rebel Cheese posted

[blockquote]Rather, a crazed genius. Capable of absolute brilliance and asinine mistakes at the same time. [/blockquote]

[hr]

God save the galaxy [face_doh!]


[hr]
Rebel Cheese posted

[blockquote]Before Jacen completely lost it in the last three books, he was showing more flashes of brilliance and capability.

Now he is making the asinine mistakes that will probably lead to his downfall.[/blockquote]

[hr]

Being a member of the Jacen fan club we've discussed this at length there, I was in the minority that said he started making asinine mistakes when he said, "You're making a whole lot of sense Vergere." [face_doh!] Though I was hoping Jacen being a smart boy [face_doh!] would see this potentium stuff for the moral relativistic nonsense it was on his own.

Anyway I think the sudden shift from brilliant to crazy started in Inferno when he ordered the burning of Kashyyk, up until then all his actions were up to a point justifiable (lord knows most in the fan club did justify his actions), and I think that was the one time where the 3 writers really dropped the ball...I dunno if Denning was in a hurry writing that or just wanted to show Jacen in a more clearcut villianous light, but since Inferno the mood has noticeably shifted not away from Jacen, but a little to one side of him as if they recognize he needs to go down on some level now.


[hr]
Nobody posted

[blockquote]And I think Caedus' stupid mistakes are just part of the normal fall to darkness/evil. Anakin (Skywalker) was never the brightest bulb, and he got a rude awakening of all his flaws when Obi-wan defeated him in a lightsaber duel, so he spent most of his time as Vader as... extremely bitter and grumpy. Caedus is at the point Anakin was when he was boasting about bringing "peace and security to my new Empire", huge ego and not smart enough to recognize that. Of course, Jacen made the extremely foolish mistake of thinking there can be such a thing as a good Sith. Even Luke never quite hit that low when he apprenticed to Palpatine briefly, as the whole time Luke just meant to infiltrate the darkside, to kill Palpatine and his clones. Jacen willingly embraced the Sith philosophy, especially as he's still on his "there is no darkside" kick. [/blockquote]

[hr]

Personally my theory is that Anakin had [b]STUPID[/b] genes, and his son and daughter inherited them too and passed them on down to Anakin's grandkids. Now both Luke and Leia have fought the curse of Anakin's stupidity all their lives with a fair degree of success I'd say, but the grandkids...Jaina has flirted with it off and on, Anakin Solo dealt with it, Ben is just starting to recognize that his IQ level is in peril, and Jacen after spending most of the NJO trying to excorcise his grandpa's curse has embraced it in the LOTF and brought it to new lows. [face_cry]

My only hope is that Jag and TK and whoever Ben marries have dominant [b]SMART[/b] genes to balance the Skywalker [b]STUPID[/b] genes.


[hr]
Nobody posted

[blockquote]And I view the Jedi Master title to mean a Jedi Knight has reached a certain level of experience. Tionne's a Master, so is Cighal, but neither are powe

 

Ulicus:
I don't understand why they suddenly made the switch between "Jedi Master = Wise", to "Jedi Master = A Certain Power Level".

It's well stupid. Tionne is a Jedi Master - she's not some uber powerful person.
It's not power that defines a Jedi, it's knowledge and knowing when and when not to use it.

Tionne is a butt-kicking Jedi Master, and I'd rather have her at my side than others that are more powerful.

Lord_Riven:
I thought that Jedi Master was a title conferred upon a Jedi (for experience, going thru trials, responsibility etc...), it should never have been read into as indicating anything about power levels.
It's over nine thousaaaaaaaand!

I agree, too.

rebel_cheese:
How would you prefer him? Jacen was unpopular either way.
Not a Sith. Not JINO. Not supposedly 'destined' to fight and either kill his SISTER or be killed by her, which is fundamentally wrong on levels I can't even go into, mind you.

That's what I want. I want Jacen back.

Nobody145:
And yeah, YJK Luke was awesome, in retrospect. He wasn't the star of the novels, but he was still there. The novels were kiddy, as they were meant for young adults, but they still had that nice Star Wars feeling to them.
Yeah, they were. *Happy sigh* I love them so much...

I remember the very... abrupt jump from how happy the atmosphere of the YJK series was to the NJO.
Like a train wreck...

Amon_Amarth
A place about Luke - I'm in!
Hi.

In LOTF, they seem to be cut off, distant from everyone else. At what point did the Order grow so much to forget the others, I wonder? Since NJO...
And Luke was warned not to do that by Mon Mothma. Yeesh...

The_Four_Dot_Ellipsis:
But, uh...he's not. There's your problem. He's not "Jacen In Name" at all anymore. Your phrase is outmoded, I'm afraid
Why? Because he calls himself Caedus? Nope. I don't see a difference between pre-Caedus JINO and post-Caedus JINO. I never did the whole 'Sith is a totally different person'. Vader is still Anakin, Tyrannus is still Dooku.