Lit SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Jedi Ben, Mar 22, 2008.

  1. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    In light of the recent announcement by RF over at the EUC thread, it's fallen to me to restart a thread that, to its participants, whether posting or lurking, is felt to represent the best elements of the Literature forum.

    The original SOS thread was started a long time ago, some 20,000 posts and 5 years ago by Skydancer, her aim was quite simple, see here:

    http://boards.theforce.net/Literature/b10003/5698836/?10158

    Then 3 years later, we had to restart it, because 10,000 posts is a hefty amount of data and we weren't inclined to simply stop talking!

    http://boards.theforce.net/literature/b10003/21528302/p1/?10001

    And now here we are again, a 3rd incarnation and why? Because we're not done!

    In the time the thread has been going the Lit forum has undergone many changes and the thread has evolved in response to them, now there needs to be a new structure:

    For the last few weeks, whilst it was under discussion by the Mod Squad, there was an SOS thread in EUC:

    http://boards.theforce.net/eu_community/b10194/28003820/p1/?564

    This thread will continue and host the wider ranging discussion that SOS became known for, such as numerous comparisons of SW to other series and stories, character analyses - all the things the Mods don't see as belonging in Lit.

    The exact details? Well those do need to be nailed down and will probably be amongst the first order of business for this thread. Similarly, the title is an initial one only, if we it needs to be revised I'm sure one of the Mods wil be willing to take care of that, once agreed.

    For now I'll start the process, this thread covers:

    Luke Skywalker, his past, present and future
    Development of the galaxy he exists within, past, present and future
    Predecessors and ancestors.

    Predecessors? You've doubtless worked out that ancestors refers to Cade Skywalker, but predecessors? Well, there is a KOTOR serial running, which links to the Vector event and who knows how that may link to the future eras that impact Luke? I've no idea, but, if in doubt, hedge the bets. ;)

    In any case, I think there's enough here to keep us going.

    If you're new to the thread, feel welcome - although do conduct yourself in such a way as you'd like to be reciprocated, ie. be polite.

    The discussions can get quite impassioned but it's never a brawl - if you do want that, go somewhere else, please. (If you ignore the polite request, the next response involves blasters.)

    JB

    RF: Just fixing some links...
  2. ChildOfWinds Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2001
    star 5
    Thanks for restarting the thread, Jedi Ben! It's great to be back home in Lit!

    Thanks to the Mods too for agreeing to our request to return!


    Predecessors? You've doubtless worked out that ancestors refers to Cade Skywalker, but predecessors? Well, there is a KOTOR serial running, which links to the Vector event and who knows how that may link to the future eras that impact Luke? I've no idea, but, if in doubt, hedge the bets.

    I think you mean that we know that one of Luke's DESCENDANTS refers to Cade. ;)

    My bet is on Zayne being an ancestor of Shmi Skywalker, and therefore, an ancestor of Luke Skywalker! ;)

    Similarly, the title is an initial one only,

    Yes. I'm waiting for a response from dp4m, but we MAY be able to keep our SOS Luke Skywalker title and still be able to talk about past, present and future. I'd really love to get our old title back again! :)

    This (EUC) thread will continue and host the wider ranging discussion that SOS became known for, such as numerous comparisons of SW to other series and stories, character analyses

    Actually, JB, unless I misunderstood dp4m's message in Community SOS, the above may actually be allowed in this Lit thread. Discussion of other universes and characters, without relating them to SW, would not be permitted.

    Reposting one of my last posts from Community:

    Starwolf76 , I prefer the earlier Bantam works. They weren't as dark, gloomy, pessimistic, and depressing. The stories were shorter too, told in single books, duologies, or trilogies. That gave us more of a variety. The NJO was only ONE story, but it took up NINETEEN books! For someone like me, who greatly disliked it, there was no other option for four whole years!

    What would you say is your favorite book? Least favorite book?

    Which book had the characterization of Luke Skywalker that you liked best? Which characterizaton did you like least? Why?

    Most of Luke's hangups and uncertainty seem to stem from Mara's death, killing Lumiya, and worrying that Ben would go as bad as Jacen.

    Right, and throughout almost the entire NJO, Luke was unsure about what to do, how to deal with the YV. He wasn't that way in the films. I can understand why he was worried about training Jaina and Jacen. Luke didn't have much official training himself, a few weeks with Yoda and a few lessons from Ben Kenobi. Plus, he was well aware of what happened to his own father. SO that early concern about training new Jedi doesn't bother me. But Luke didn't seem to hesitate as a leader of Rogue Squadron. He's smart and he's resourceful. He shouldn't be portrayed as so indecisive so often.

    Perhaps he will get back to his old self by Invincible.

    Unfortunately, I fear that Luke will be shoved aside in Invincible. I'm afraid they'll say that Luke is afraid he'll fall to the dark side if he faces Jacen after his vengeance killing of Lumiya. So I'm afraid that he'll only have a very small role while Jaina will defeat Jacen. But I really wanted it to be Luke. I wanted him to defeat Jacen, strip him of the Force permanently, and then forgive him. That's what I think Luke would do.

    So, Rell thought Luke would have *children*, not just one child.

    Yes, and Luke and Mara saw "CHILDREN" in their shared Vision of the Future at the end of that book.


    RKStriker_JK_5

    Luke characterization: A little bit of farmboy naivete, some hardness but the need to see the good in people and very powerful in the Force, depending on where he is in life.

    That sounds like a pretty good characterization of Luke. I don't see him as particularly hard most of the time. I think of him as more compassionate, but when he's serious about something, I suppose that works. And I can agree that Luke has some of Padme and Anakin in him.

    I'm with you: I didn't like the NJO Jacen either. That was a very different characterization than the one in the YJK books.

    And there IS too much "PT stuff leaking in where it doesn't belong". That "PT stuff" is dama
  3. Ulicus Lit'ari

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2005
    star 6
    Anakin Skywalker? Shmi Skywalker? :p
  4. Sinrebirth SWC and EUC Forum Moderator

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2004
    star 7
    Nice to see you resisted on positing on who is the ancestor of Shmi, at least. :p
  5. Ulicus Lit'ari

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2005
    star 6
    Wait, I've been confused.

    I saw Ben referring to Cade and so my mind replaced "ancestor" with "descendant" and then fixed on "predecessor" as "ancestor" and got confused as to why Luke's predecessors would be something difficult to work out.

    8-}

    I are going crazy.
  6. ChildOfWinds Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2001
    star 5

    Sinrebirth


    Nice to see you resisted on positing on who is the ancestor of Shmi, at least.

    But *I* didn't in my post above. ;)
  7. J_K_DART Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2001
    star 5
    Well, it's good to see SOS back where it belongs, in the Lit forum. Personally, I quite like the SOS Save our Skywalker title; I actually always thought that was what the SOS stood for, being a bit of a pun. Luke as a character has been frequently poorly-portrayed in the EU; for several reasons imo:

    a) Luke's character arc in the OT concluded. The only way to continue to use him as a character really was the approach used by Zahn, to make him 'the first of the new'; and it was an obvious strategy, so much so that both TTT and DE simultaneously came up with the angle. However, launching an existing character on a new arc creates immediate issues. This was complicated by,

    b) The fact that authors typically approach the character differently. Basic portrayals of Luke in each series in Bantam varied wildly; contrast, for example, the Luke of JAT to the Luke of TTT, and you'll see what I mean. The idea of self-contained series caused a great deal of conflict; Luke as Messiah in JAT is a theme I love, but it doesn't carry on well because the theme has run its course (and the theme is also neglected entirely in Stackpole's JAT rewrite, I, Jedi).

    When DR got the contract, they recognised (rightly, I think) that Luke's two major arcs through Bantam - his singleness and his Jedi Order - were concluded. Instead of crafting a new arc for him, their initial response was to conclude that it was time for Luke to go. Lucas nixed the idea, and DR have been playing 'ooopsie' ever since. Shoehorning Luke into the early NJO led to a poor characterisation that has never been fully recovered from. Meanwhile, the PT's release forced a reappraisal by DR of what it means to be a Jedi, and, as the foremost Jedi, Luke was reinterpreted as a result - erroneously so.

    Hence the need for this thread. Luke's mischaracterisation has lessened; nowadays DR can actually come out with Luke moments like his duel with Shimrra, his battle with Raynar and Lomi Plo, and his Force-phantoms in Inferno which were never fully explained. However, the mischaracterisation is still there. Would Luke go after Lumiya in revenge? Did he do so? Is his regret a valid characterisation arc, and has it been handled well?

    There's still an essential place for SOS in Lit, imo.
  8. AnnLouise Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 10, 2005
    star 3
    Thanks for this thread. The post PT changes in the SW saga, and their negative effect on my childhood crush, Luke The Nicest Guy Ever, are dispiriting. While I hold ROTS as one of my favorites (even over ROTJ), it's part of an insidious[face_whistling] trend. The tipping point for me was Revelation and seeing a series about the legacy of the Force fail to make use of the GFFA's greatest hero of the Force - Luke Skywalker.
    If the SW saga becomes Anakin's story, instead of Luke's, there is a major change in the whole outlook of SW. It's not a story of heroes fighting, and ultimately winning, over the darkness; it's a story like Anakin's - a struggle against the darkness that ends in capitulation and failure.
    If your central figure is a severly flawed, morally weak character, IMO anything SW that comes after that be it book, game, or TV show is in that image. The PT, LOTF, Force Unleashed; flawed, morally weak characters are now the heroes.
    Which leaves little room for someone with a functioning conscience like Luke Skywalker.
  9. Darth_Hydra Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 14, 2001
    star 4
    I'd be rather disappointed if Zayne turns to out to be an ancestor of the Skywalkers. Part of the appeal of reading the KOTOR series for me is that Zayne is an underdog. Even though he's not the most powerful or skilled Jedi he's still making a difference for the greater good.
  10. ChildOfWinds Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2001
    star 5

    J_K_DART

    Well, it's good to see SOS back where it belongs, in the Lit forum. Personally, I quite like the SOS Save our Skywalker title; I actually always thought that was what the SOS stood for, being a bit of a pun

    Actually, Save Our Skywalker IS what SOS stands for! ;) And the new title IS beginning to grow on me! :) It also gives us more discussion "wiggle room". I'll respond to the rest of your post and AnnLouise's post (Welcome to the SOS thread, Ann Lousie) late tomorrow or Monday.

    Darth_Hydra

    I'd be rather disappointed if Zayne turns to out to be an ancestor of the Skywalkers. Part of the appeal of reading the KOTOR series for me is that Zayne is an underdog. Even though he's not the most powerful or skilled Jedi he's still making a difference for the greater good.

    I like that about him too, DH. If he's Shmi's ancestor, he doesn't have to be all that skilled or powerful. Luke, Anakin, and the other Skywalkers didn't get their powerful Force genes or midichlorians from Shmi, you know. We don't even know if Shmi herself was Force sensitive.

  11. Robimus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2007
    star 5
    Ditto. Everything in the galaxy doesn't need to revolve around the Skywalkers. Not that I dislike them, quite the opposite, but they simply don't need a decendant in every Star Wars story told. I prefer the idea that Palpatine or Plagius created Anakin from the midiclorians. No Skywalking force users before that point. Of course I'm sure the goal of Vector will be to prove me wrong.:)
  12. Nobody145 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 9, 2007
    star 4
    I wouldn't mind having Zayne related to the Skywalkers, but don't need him to be part of the family tree. I personally think it would be awesome if Zayne was related, but Zayne's underdog nature is also part of what makes him so great.

    Its arguable whether Star Wars is really Anakin's story. The movies are his story, since he shows up in all six of them, and I think Lucas said so too, but its arguable how one can interpret his story. Yes, he falls (though its a somewhat tragic flaw), becomes evil, one of the more iconic fictional evil figures, but in the end, he is redeemed by the love of his son and dies in the light.

    Redemption is a nice concept, but there are limits. Sometimes I wish Luke wasn't so set on redeeming almost everybody, but that's part of what makes him so great. I do wish Luke would just get around to killing his nephew. Not exactly a nice thing, but... there has to be a certain point when enough is enough.

    We've had glimpses of how awesome Luke is during LotF, but they've had to keep interupting his moments, as if Luke was actually allowed to kill Caedus once or twice when he had the opportunity, then this series would be over a lot sooner (which would be a good thing in my opinion, but that's just me).
  13. Skydancer Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2001
    star 2
    Hey everyone -

    I'm just here to congratulate JB and CoW for starting this thread back again in Lit.

    Congrats!!

    Long Live Luke!

    Now - I need to hide back in my cave and hibernate - I'll reappear again in the next few years.

    **** POOF!!! ****

    I'm gone... [face_peace]

    Skydancer
  14. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    George Lucas has backtracked a bit.

    Suffice to say, he's said that it's Luke's story, it's Darth Vader's story, it's the Droid's story, and its the story of Democracy vs. Fascism.

    For me, I simplify it.

    The Original Trilogy: Luke Skywalker's story

    The Prequels: Anakin Skywalker's story.

    Honestly, I think part of the problem with Luke killing Lumiya is that it's something that absolutely needed to be done. It's also a moment that I don't mind Luke reminescing over but I think they bundled the job. Karen Traviss retconned Fenn Shysha into knowing that Spar wasn't actually Boba Fett, so I didn't mind the idea that Luke Skywalker and Lumiya could be retconned into being lovers.

    Frankly, I think that would have been a much more powerful moment where Luke Skywalker consciously chooses to execute Lumiya depsite their past relationship because she's a threat to the Galactic Peace and will never repent. You could have all manner of interesting insights into Luke.

    * Having to deal with a Sith who refuses redemption with an intimate connection to Luke.

    * Having to deal with Luke knowingly and willing choosing to execute rather than capture a foe.

    * Having Luke struggle with the question of whether he killed Lumiya as a conscious choice or did so from his own rage.

    (Not that such really matters all that much)

    Instead, they're going a very stupid and cheap route with it.
  15. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    The question is where the line is drawn, isn't it? I read dp4m's point as being that, while he personally saw nothing wrong with comparing Luke and Sheridan, so a B5-SW comparison, it would likely go against the policy of remaining roughly on-topic. So I see the limit as being wide-ranging discussion with a Luke focus within the entirety of SW, my perception of it could be wrong though.

    DH,

    I wouldn't mind Zayne being linked to the Skywalkers, I don't care for the notion that Skywalker = Super-powerful Jedi, power by blood just detracts from the heroes in my view. Also, for the bulk of the OT, Luke was the underdog set against Vader, so it could be said the two are more alike than we may first conclude.

    JB
  16. J_K_DART Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2001
    star 5
    Oh, imo what I've heard of Zayne does sound to be a Luke template of the OT style, I agree, Ben.
  17. Dawud786 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 28, 2006
    star 4
    Hmmm. Everything doesn't have to revolve around the Skywalkers? I disagree. Even if Zayne is tangentially related to the Skywalkers it would sort of show how there's a plan in the Force. Supposedly the prophecy of the Chosen One was made 1000 years before TPM. For at least 1,000 years there was a program working towards the vergence that spawned Anakin Skywalker, the Chosen One. Anakin is the GFFA's messiah. Luke and Leia are his secret family. Sound kinda Da Vinci Code/Holy Blood, Holy Grail? Well, it is. Just as there was a Divine Plan leading to the eventual emergence of Jesus the Messiah from the Davidic lineage of the tribe of Judah, descendent of Abraham etc etc. There's a Force Plan for the emergence of the Chosen One. In so many ways, the entire history of the GFFA revolves around the Skywalkers. Their ancestors, their proginator the Chosen One, and their descendents. The Skywalkers are kind of the spiritual axis around which the Galaxy turns.
  18. Auditor Dredd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 4
    I'm out of it for a little while and everyone gets delusions of grandeur. ;) glad to have the Lit version and the EUC version too. question can I be the one that posts version 4.0 ?
  19. Auditor Dredd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 4



    C

    The Original Trilogy: Luke Skywalker's story

    The Prequels: Anakin Skywalker's story.


    I think everybody will agree with you on that.

    Honestly, I think part of the problem with Luke killing Lumiya is that it's something that absolutely needed to be done. It's also a moment that I don't mind Luke reminescing over but I think they bundled the job. Karen Traviss retconned Fenn Shysha into knowing that Spar wasn't actually Boba Fett, so I didn't mind the idea that Luke Skywalker and Lumiya could be retconned into being lovers.

    too bad it wasn't portrayed in that context, it was rather a gray subject when it could have been displayed black and white. also I want to know why you like the idea of Lumiya being so close to Luke, when in canon they only shared a brief kiss. I'm just curious.



    * Having to deal with a Sith who refuses redemption with an intimate connection to Luke.

    I suppose prison would be a cheap way out, I wouldn't have mind her death if Luke killed her in self defense.

    * Having to deal with Luke knowingly and willing choosing to execute rather than capture a foe.

    also that seem very out of character for Luke, though his wife died and Lumiya more than deserve it. I wish he could leave her stripped of the Force or "disarm" her.

    Instead, they're going a very stupid and cheap route with it.

    sadly the series has been going a rather lame and predictable route.

    JB

    The question is where the line is drawn, isn't it? I read dp4m's point as being that, while he personally saw nothing wrong with comparing Luke and Sheridan, so a B5-SW comparison, it would likely go against the policy of remaining roughly on-topic. So I see the limit as being wide-ranging discussion with a Luke focus within the entirety of SW, my perception of it could be wrong though.

    as long I can relate Spider-man to Luke or Captain America to Luke base on similarties in morals and actions, I don't see no problem.

    I wouldn't mind Zayne being linked to the Skywalkers, I don't care for the notion that Skywalker = Super-powerful Jedi, power by blood just detracts from the heroes in my view. Also, for the bulk of the OT, Luke was the underdog set against Vader, so it could be said the two are more alike than we may first conclude.

    you know they establish Luke becoming a powerful force user and also for his father but we never actually get to see that power wielded on screen format which is a letdown. especially after seeing Yoda and Palps fight in the senate auditiorium.


    ChildofWinds

    So who are in slots 3 to 8?

    don't remember but certain Obi-wan was there. Han and Leia weren't even in the top 10 which is a shock.

    It really seems a lot more like FETT'S legacy.

    at least in the Traviss novels.

    You're right that Lucas seems "PT obsessed". For me, it isn't so much that Lucas wants to leave the characters alone, but that he's now claiming that everything is Anakin's story. It was once Luke's story, but now everything is Anakin's and Luke's importance has been greatly diminished. Now Lucas seems overly focused on Anakin and seems to no longer care about the character who was named for him.

    I suppose at the moment he wants to deal with the PT but perhaps later on he or he will have someone work with his classic characters. PT stuff can only go so far.

    I don't really see that much darkness in Luke. I see that he has matured and grown. Yes, he slips a couple of times, but what do you expect: Luke's new at this Jedi stuff in RotJ, and he's really had only a few weeks of formal Force training.


    the only thing that seem odd was his display of the Force with the Gammeroans guards, which was nothing more than knocking them out. I kinda wish Luke used a different mannerism though...

    The GFFA is lucky if it gets 5 or 6 years of peace in a row, let alone 100!

    yeah 5 years between LOTF and NJo was not enough.

    If *I* were going into that scary-looki
  20. ChildOfWinds Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2001
    star 5

    Jedi Ben

    The question is where the line is drawn, isn't it?

    dp4m wrote: "Personally, I even liked the comparisons of B5 Sheridan to SW Luke, but simply talking about B5 episodes would likely be out."

    That sounds to me like just discussing B5 is out, but making comparisons of characters from B5 to Luke is fine. I'm hoping to get this clarified by either dp or RF.

    I wouldn't mind Zayne being linked to the Skywalkers, for the bulk of the OT, Luke was the underdog set against Vader, so it could be said the two are more alike than we may first conclude.

    I really hope we find that Zayne IS an ancestor of Luke's someday. I agree with Dart that Zayne and Luke seem to share some of the same qualities. Zayne is a hero in Luke's mold, or vice versa. ;)

  21. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    COW,

    I think we're in agreement that we need the Mods to take a hand and define things in depth so we know what we can and can't do. I'm of the view it's best to have that discussion here, as we're in Lit so there's no confusion over what rules apply to which thread - and did try to say as much in the opening post that we need to get a few things worked out. Once that's done the opening text can be edited to reflect the final form.

    JB
  22. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2000
    star 10
    I'll have to suffice ;)

    But, yes- comparing non-SW things, like B5 characters, to Luke, where appropriate, is permissible. Discussion of non-SW things by themselves is not. Try to keep the general flow & topic of discussion centered around Luke- we do not want to see a catch-all, self-contained "mini Lit forum" environment formulate.
  23. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    Ok, yeah, that suffices. ;)

    It'd be helpful to have this rule added to the opening text, if you or your colleagues could please oblige? The phrase 'mini Lit forum' quickly nails the details we need whilst allowing a fair bit of latitude as well.

    JB
  24. ChildOfWinds Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2001
    star 5
    Jedi Ben:

    It'd be helpful to have this rule added to the opening text, if you or your colleagues could please oblige? The phrase 'mini Lit forum' quickly nails the details we need whilst allowing a fair bit of latitude as well.

    I think we should wait until everything is ironed out before we have things changed, as there may be more changes to come.
  25. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    True, but, with the right access, it probably isn't hard to alter stuff, that said I agree it'd be best to get it all done in one if we can.

    In the meantime, we can tick off one area as being dealt with?

    So what's left?