Lit SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)

No, it's more like a desperate wish to get rid of the Boy Wonder.

 

That a impossible wish until he has a son that can be his sucessor.

 

No it isn't. Luke can always use the services of Kamino to create a clone of Ben.

 

Luke: I introduce you to my new apprentice/son, Been(pronounced Bean) Skywalker. Yes, he's small like a bean, but if I give him magic seeds, a giant beanstalk will grow and then he can kill Caedus"

 

But their no difference if Ben's clone has the same memories as the original Ben.

 

No, thankfully, Ben has no memories.

He just loves his father and is a Jedi.

Luke killed Ben and had his soul bound to the Chaos of the Dark Side even though he was a light side Jedi.

 

But what about it Ben that kills Luke instead.

 

Stary,

I don't know about you, but I only saw Luke use his anger and all that once. As for those training methods you mentioned, those are all childs play compared to the training methods that the ancient samuri taught their children, or what African natives did with their kids when preparing them for war with another tribe. Sometimes training is cruel, its not supposed to be fun.

* So because it's Ok for them, it's OK for the Jedi? Can't go along with that, those training practices are a statement on the perception of the Jedi and it's a method more akin to that of the Sith than the Jedi, who are supposed to better. It isn't the case that hard lessons weren't taught but in the right way, which having one set of students attack another isn't.

Thats exactly why they did it. If they hadn't they wouldn't be able to make it into the mega story arc that it was.

* Then why bother? If the space isn't going to be used to the full to do something truly new and unseen, then do it as the trilogy it was intended as.

Authors misrepresent characters all the time in order to tell the stories they want to. Thats just the way it is. Don't you remember back in the Bantam era they all wanted Leia to remain a politician so they made her scared to continue her training to become a full fledged Jedi, even though she had nothing to be scared of seeing as how DE made her out to be a great Jedi hopeful that saved her brother from the darkside?

* I'd say DE made Leia too open to the dark side and too interesting a character so they put her back in the politician box, since then Leia's been the character who's allowed to get mad on numerous occasions whilst Luke is supposed to be in control always. Leia has plenty to be scared of, for she has her father's blindness in regard to her faults.

Those authors of that era didn't like the idea of Leia being a full time Jedi so they came up with this lame plot point in her character development so they could write her the way they wanted to.

* Except by the time of HoT she's both Jedi and politician. How? One of the best things Hambly did was have Leia confront all her fears, but because Planet of Twilight wasn't that popular it got buried.

Same thing happened with the approach to the Vong. It's as simple as that.

* So a 5-year arc goes up in smoke because of a creativity famine?

Because he looks at Jacen who he thinks has no signs of bad after effects of following Vergeres philosophies and decides to try it out at least once in a very dire situation. He finds that he didn't like it, so he goes ahead with his forbiding of it. I don't fault Luke for being a flip flopper,

* Except is changing your position after 5 years really flip-flopping?

I fault him for not being more stern with his Knights about dwelling into things they probably shouldn't dwell in and for not paying good enough attention to what Jacen had become. But this goes all the way back to Lukes weakness of trusting people and his attachements and how they can screw up his perception of people.

* Luke's only error was in thinking he had trained a bunch of Jedi able to be Jedi and not act like a bunch of bickering kids! Sadly what Luke's learning is you can never set the bar low enough, but every time you have to lower it is a profoundly depressing experience.

 

Luke's wishy-washy indicisiveness - like Han, Leia, Jaina, etc., has been aggrivated by the nine-book idea. They've all become soap-opera indicisive. A soap has to stretch out the story forever, so instead of say, directly confronting a character about their alcoholism, infidelity, coming back from the dead, it gets talked about ad nauseum, some hesitant steps are considered, but it takes months, sometimes years, for anything to resolve.
But on a soap, I expect this kind of storytelling, I enjoy the story unfolding and winding along, I don't expect any sudden resolution.
But in dragging out the story to nine books in one linear stream, makes the characters seems unusually stupid. A series of three trilogies would've prevented the further dumbing down of the Jedi in general and Luke in particular.

 

Charlemagne19

Luke and the Jedi's whole plan for Jacen/Caedus here seemed to be to capture Jacen and take him to where they could talk to him and deprogram him. Did they just make up this plan on the spur of the moment when they saw him in his X-Wing? What would they have done if he had remained in the Anakin Solo?

Pretty much, yes.
Luke actually was waiting for Jacen though because he figures he'll come out sometime.

Well, I hate to say it, but that seems like a pretty silly "plan" to me. I was actually quite surprised that Jacen would go out in an X-wing in a major battle arena. It seems like one of the LAST things Luke should have expected Jacen to do. Most commanders don't leave their posts when fighting is imminent.

But when Jacen did play right into Luke's hands, Luke or another Jedi should have shot down Jacen's ship right away when he refused to land his ship.

Rouge77

What I mean is that in Betrayal the Jedi shouldn't have participated in the first attack against Corellia.

I really agree with you about that. I was surprised when Luke and the Jedi were directly involved. I agree that it was a big mistake. The Jedi would have been better off staying neutral so that they could be accepted by all parties as the peacemakers. They should have particularly stayed out of this conflict because neither side was completely right or innocent here. This was a questionable situation.

Luke was intended to die in a blaze of glory in VP, so that explains his activity in that novel.

Ah, yes, you're probably right about that. But after that book, Luke was supposed to be dead, so they didn't have a role planned for him. And you're right that they didn't seem to change much to accommodate the fact that Luke was still around. I think Luke ended up with the passive, inactive, indecisive role that Jacen was supposed to play for much of the series. They just plugged Luke in there. But that was so contrary to Luke's normal character and personality. You're right that they then came up with the rather lame (in my opinion) excuse in DW that Luke feared that he would lead a dark crusade if he had been more active. I truly don't see how defending the galaxy against invaders can possibly be dark!

And you're also right that Luke seems to keep deciding that the Jedi should be pretty much independent of the government, yet before you know it, the Jedi are back to working for the government.

 

I have to say, I don't think the idea the Jedi couldn't beat the Vong without going dark was a plot device; it was more of an excuse. I recall Walter Jon Williams, who wrote it, actually commenting on these boards that it was the best reason he could come up with to explain what had already been written.

 

I don't think Luke wanted to work for the government. I think he wanted to help the government that he thought still had all the samme values and principles as the NR. He was wrong.

 

No duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

 

Well I'm just gonna stick to this thread, not gonna bother answer in two seperate SOS threads.

COW

"And you're also right that Luke seems to keep deciding that the Jedi should be pretty much independent of the government, yet before you know it, the Jedi are back to working for the government."

Wasn't there a argument about this in DN? I recall Kyp and Mara siding with the notion that Jedi shouldn't work for the governement but only for the force, with Corran siding with the opposite view. I suppose the issue is that if the Jedi want to be supported (politically and/or financially) by the goverment, they're going to tie themselves into their policies to some extent at least. They can't exactly ask for a temple in Ossus and then say they want nothing to do with the Corellia crisis.

"But when Jacen did play right into Luke's hands, Luke or another Jedi should have shot down Jacen's ship right away when he refused to land his ship."

I wasn't aware that Luke was already at the stage of being willing to kill Jacen. I think only Jaina is close to that and even in her case I'm still skeptical.

 

In this, you're wrong.

Luke has tried to kill, NOT CAPTURE, three times at this point. Also, it's made explicit he's not attempting to disable or capture him.

 

AnnLouise

Luke's wishy-washy indicisiveness - like Han, Leia, Jaina, etc., has been aggrivated by the nine-book idea.

I completely agree! In order to stretch out the story to nine books, the characters can't figure things out too quickly. They can't accomplish goals or defeat the villain too quickly either. This does make the characters look as though they've lost a lot of IQ points. They aren't allowed to notice what's right in front of them or solve what they really should have no difficulty figuring out because then the story would be over in a couple of books instead of in nine. And characters like Ben can't share information too soon either or the series would be over. If Ben had told Luke that he saw Jacen with Lumiya right after he witnessed them together, Luke would have known that Jacen was definitely in trouble and would have confronted him sooner. Most likely, Mara would not have died.

You're right: If LotF would have been at most a trilogy, Luke and the Jedi, as well as other characters, wouldn't have needed to be "dumbed down" for the plot to work.

J_K_DART

I have to say, I don't think the idea the Jedi couldn't beat the Vong without going dark was a plot device; it was more of an excuse.

True. For me, it doesn't work that well though, as I don't see how Luke and the rest of the Jedi defending the galaxy against evil could be wrong.... unless they went to morally unacceptable extremes like using Alpha Red to wipe out the whole species.

But I can see where the author had a difficult task in trying to come up with an explanation for why they didn't defend against the YV for so long. There doesn't seem to BE a plausible reason.

DurronFan :

Wasn't there a argument about this in DN? I recall Kyp and Mara siding with the notion that Jedi shouldn't work for the governement but only for the force, with Corran siding with the opposite view.

I do remember that argument, though I don't remember where it was exactly. It could have been DN. It's just that Luke seems to be very wishy-washy about this. He goes back and forth between keeping the Jedi free from government ties and then saying they should serve the government because it's the best chance toward peace.

I guess I would prefer to have the Jedi autonomous, but I can see your point about feeling a need or an obligation to ally with a particular government. The Jedi of the Old Republic apparently protected it for over a thousand years if the prologue to SW is to be believed. Still, I was pleased when Luke and the Jedi severed ties with Jacen's GA government in Inferno.

I wasn't aware that Luke was already at the stage of being willing to kill Jacen.

In Revelation, Luke was trying to capture Jacen, hoping, I think, to deprogram him. But he did seem to be willing to kill Jacen in Inferno, except that Ben was so crazy with anger that he felt he needed to get Ben away more than he needed to finish off Jacen. Luke also seemed willing to shoot down Jacen's X-wing in an earlier book, until he realized that there was a child (Alana) in the ship with him.

I think Luke would prefer to redeem Jacen, but he seemed willing to kill him, if necessary.

I think only Jaina is close to that and even in her case I'm still skeptical.

I think Jaina is less likely to kill Jacen than Luke. He's her twin brother, after all.

Charlemagne19

Luke has tried to kill, NOT CAPTURE, three times at this point. Also, it's made explicit he's not attempting to disable or capture him.

Two times for sure. I don't remember the third time. However, Luke seemed to want to capture and deprogram Jacen in Revelation. Otherwise, why risk getting so close to his ship. He could have shot Jacen out of space with Jacen never being the wiser.

 

Child
But as I said, Luke specifically said he didn't believe in the potentium in the NJO, so why would he change his mind by TJK?

*Because Troy Denning didn't read the NJO. He read E-mails from Sue Rostoni and the other editors of DR, and Luceno and other writers...but as this discrepancy proves that isn't enough to correctly keep the nuances and underlying texture of the story as it changes hands from one writer to the next.

I doubt that Luke will ever have any more children, though he should have. Mother Rell predicted "children" and Luke and Mara saw "Children" in their shared vision.

*Well if they want to be clever they could say that she meant that all the NJO is Luke and Mara's children and cover their rear-ends that way. It's a stretch, but that's how it is with Visions of the future and prophecies. They're so subjective they're absolutely useless except in understanding what has happened after the event if the event is actually the event they mention (which with alot of prophecies and visions that remains uncertain). It's better to make decisions based on what you know at the moment, not on what may or may not happen in the future.

Luke's only error was in thinking he had trained a bunch of Jedi able to be Jedi and not act like a bunch of bickering kids!

It's so sad that that's so true.

Child
While the YV were fierce fighters, it wasn't impossible for the Jedi to defeat them. Luke defeated some YV to save the captured Jacen. The idea that the YV couldn't be taken down in combat without the Jedi going dark, was just a plot device to keep Luke and the Jedi from doing too much too quickly so the the story could continure for 19 books. At least, that's the way it seemed to me.

Dart
I have to say, I don't think the idea the Jedi couldn't beat the Vong without going dark was a plot device; it was more of an excuse. I recall Walter Jon Williams, who wrote it, actually commenting on these boards that it was the best reason he could come up with to explain what had already been written.

What?!?!
They need the Darkside to win. They need the darkside not to be whining indecisive Pansies!
So the lightside's for losers!
Did they even watch the movies or do they think reversing everything George said in six films constitutes as expanding upon it.
I musta repressed this, because I don't remember this ever being mentioned...(That's how much I dislike this idea)

Over this I am very upset. This kind of insult to what SW is about may be the thing that makes me...me..Mr. I love all things SW...to turn my back on the EU.

 

Despite what they say, I'm fairly sure he intended to blow Jacen to pieces.

 

That is just such a cheap cop out. Even if the Vong were force void, doesn't mean that they aren't standing around in a galaxy full of Force. How easy would it be for Jedi (like Luke) to use the Force around them to combat the Vong. Why do they have to stick with their lightsabers always.

Authors need to be more innovative with their combat techniques. Right now it's all really just hack the enemy with leet lightsaber skillz. Or for the Dark Siders - fire Force lightning. You think professionals could come up with something better.

eg. Something that I came up with for my fanfic - Force Blade - gathering the Force to form a blade of air particles which can cut (used for surprise attack). Or a one handed lightsaber style, or see more non-orthodox lightsaber combat - like bring some unique styles back - like Makashi instead of making everyone stick to the NJO forms without change.

EDITED to mention Luke by name.

 

Didn't Luke manipulate a dovin basin early in the war with the Force? I can' remember too clearly, I haven't bothered to read most of the NJO books in years, but it is possible to use the Force indirectly against the Vong. The problem for a Jedi is trying to concentrate enough to hurl a boulder at a Vong while defending against amphistaff blows, razor bugs, thud bugs, and without any Force precognitive warnings that usually let Jedi easily deflect blaster bolts.

I think the Force still physically enhances a Jedi enough to fight on an equal level with Vong warriors, but that also depends on the skill of each Jedi. For instance, at the end of the war, Luke was hacking his way through Vong warriors while Jaina and Jacen were barely able to keep up and handle any Vong that Luke didn't kill. Not to mention Luke singlehandedly taking on several Slayers and winning and then fighting Shmirra himself.

And it is kind of sad how lost the Jedi are without Luke's authority. Whenever Luke wasn't personally at the Ossus Temple during the DNT, all the Jedi just kept bickering. Although its also possible this could just be a reflection of their great respect towards Luke, in that they want to do their best, but feel they can't match up to Luke's wisdom so have no idea what to do without him. A probably Luke should really work on solving, but there's not really any time for that after Mara's death and with Jacen's ego trip. Ironically, in LotF, the Jedi Council seems to be getting on pretty well, like during that sparring session they had in Fury, and like when Corran and Kyp instantly volunteered for the mission to stick a homing device on Caedus, but Luke instead chose Kyle. Still though, the Jedi Council didn't do much due to Luke being restrained by an overprotective Mara worried about making Ben mad by working against Jacen.

And I think Luke's been trying to kill or at least disable Caedus for at least three books. Revelation was just a very odd and randomly placed reversion to an earlier stance, like when Luke and Mara were just glaring at Jacen in disapproval. Although in the latest book, Luke showed his disapproval by tearing apart Caedus' starfighter, but didn't actuall do anything but scare Caedus a little. And Luke's been doing that for most of the series, as Caedus has been afraid and eager for Luke to find out who killed Mara which would lead to a duel between them, one that Caedus expects he'll win. When Luke snuck onto the Anakin Solo in Inferno, he struck first without warning after seeing Caedus torturing Ben, but Luke didn't go for a headshot, as in trying to cut off Caedus' head. Now, its arguable whether Luke knew the head would be the most obvious first target so Luke went for something else, or whether Luke was aiming for something else in the first place, and Caedus being an evil ruthless dictator expects headshots first, which is why Caedus' instinctive block was too high to block Luke's attack. Luke was aiming for the kidneys, so as to disable Caedus, but was meant to disable Caedus in the most painful way possible. Not that pain works on Caedus that much anymore, but that was the idea anyway. In Fury, Luke would've shot Caedus down, but held back after he felt Allana's presence. Then their battle at the end of that book was just a distraction so they could rescue Allana so that didn't really count. I think Luke would still prefer to capture his nephew alive, but I think he's willing to kill Caedus if necessary. Too bad only two of the three LotF authors seem to understand that. Oh well, at least Denning (who wrote that awesome duel in the DNT) has the last book.

 

Stary,

* I'm not convinced your heart is in this or that you're interested in a discussion.

Yes, I would say it is okay because SW has always taken aspects of earthly history and incorrporating them into the space opera that is the GFFA. I don't like it anymore than you do, but its just how it is.

* But rarely uncritically.

Because they didn't want to write a trilogy. They wanted to write a multi book arc that stretched five plus years.

* Which did little beyond the standard trilogy of bad guys attack, good guys fall back, pushed to brink of defeat, bad guy weakness found, counter-attack, final victory. They had 19 books and this is all they could do with it?

Too interesting maybe, open to the darkside no. I read that story as her being the shinning light that lead Luke back to his destiney of recreating the Jedi Order, just as Ben has been the light thats been leading Luke back to his responsibility of leading the Jedi in this current war.

* Oh? Who is it who often gets blazing mad without consequence? Leia.

I disagree. Until recently I think she paid to much attention to her faults.

* Really? Where was this then?

Why are you telling me this?

* It disproves your notion that Leia was always blocked from being a Jedi.

Go complain to LFL and Bantam if you didn't like how they handled it all. I for one loved Planet of Twilight. Of course I don't remember her ever actually being called a Jedi till DNT except in DE and one other book of the Bantam era though I can't remember which one.

* You do know the acronym HoT?

Same thing happened with the approach to the Vong. It's as simple as that.

Maybe, maybe not. But thats not the point. Luke didn't know how much Jacen had changed from his five year journey. So when he got back and he seemed none the worse for ware, Luke assumed that the potentium wasn't abd as long as it wasn't used very often. As he studied Jacen and the other Jedi further, he came to the conclusion that the potentium is just not worth trying out, at all. He amde a mistake, he's human so he's allowed to make them.

* I don't get the feeling Luke is ever permitted mistakes when reading threads.

Once again, complain to the writing staff, not me.

* Oh? So now it's go elsewhere is it? You like DN's Jedi then? You approve of the notion that Luke's order is made up of a bunch of effective teenagers in DN?

 

A few thoughts...

First off, Luke in the NJO. As has been said, certainly in the first part of the NJO Luke was radically out of character. The vague attempt to explain this in DW just doesn't cut it; the oou reasoning, of course, was that the authors just weren't skilled enough to alter their plotlines to accommodate the presence of Luke (with the exception of Stackpole, of course, particularly in DT1), or else were assigned stories focused in upon other characters (e.g. Keyes in EoV1 imo). Luke was diminished as a result. And incidentally, is it true that Denning never even read TUF? Huh, at least it'd explain why he only ever makes references to his own books...

Now, on a side-tangent: what Force-powers can Jedi use to fight? Well, it's worth noting that the explicit use of the Force to kill does seem to be seen as a Dark Side action. However, in spite of that, there are a number of strategies a Jedi could use:

1) Telekinesis, of course, is a common one; bursts of tk have been used against opponents at key moments, including by Luke himself when duelling Jacen.

2) Luke's Force-imagery, which seems remarkably skilled, is a tool he could use to confuse any opponent with ease lol.

3) Battle Influence is a skill where a Jedi can fix an outcome of a battle in his mind and influence events to make this happen using the Force. See PotJ sourcebook.

4) Wis, or Force Light, is a power that emits bursts of Light Side; this is effective against Dark Siders.

5) Malacia is a skill whereby the Jedi can basically induce vertigo.

Personally, I'm hoping for an absolutely crazy Force-battle between Luke and Jacen in Invincible. I'd like to see Luke outsmart Jacen with Force-phantoms while Jacen uses his Flow-walking to try to 'fix' a win. Incidentally, is it just me or is Luke into illusions these days? From the fake Jade Shadow in DN, to the phantom and 'death' in Inferno, to the illusion in Revelation, and now to the spoilers for Invincible? Odd...

 

...Well...If true, that'd explain quite a lot.

 

I-poodoo

*Because Troy Denning didn't read the NJO. He read E-mails from Sue Rostoni and the other editors of DR,

OH!!!! THAT explains why what Luke says in TUF doesn't mesh at all with what he and the Jedi were doing in TJK!!!! There really should be a requirement, I think, that an author read at LEAST the book which precedes his or hers.

Yes, I suppose they could use the Jedi as an explanation for the referral to "Children" for Luke and Mara's vision. Can't say I like that explanation very much though.

Speaking of visions, Luke hasn't had any for a very long time now. His visions usually come to pass too. In fact, there haven't been Jedi visions at all for a while.

They need the Darkside to win. They need the darkside not to be whining indecisive Pansies! So the lightside's for losers!

IP, in DW, Walter John Williams used the idea that Luke had been afraid that if he and the Jedi had fought against the YV, that many, many Jedi would fall to the dark side, I guess because things would get so nasty in battling them, as an explanation for why Luke was so passive and inactive throughout much of the NJO. Because really, what excuse could there be for Luke and the Jedi to NOT defend against ferocious inter-galactic invaders? For me, the explanation seems kind of weak. If Luke and the Jedi and the NR/GA had been more active in fighting them, the nineteen book series probably could have been a LOT shorter!

Charlemagne19

Despite what they say, I'm fairly sure he intended to blow Jacen to pieces.

Then why didn't he, instead of taking the risk of bringing his own ship so close to Jacen's that he could have been killed himself? Why break off small pieces of Jacen's ship to try to cripple it instead of shooting it down from long range?

Lord_Riven
That is just such a cheap cop out. Even if the Vong were force void, doesn't mean that they aren't standing around in a galaxy full of Force. How easy would it be for Jedi (like Luke) to use the Force around them to combat the Vong. Why do they have to stick with their lightsabers always. Authors need to be more innovative with their combat techniques.

True, but I think no matter what technique Luke and the Jedi used, they shouldn't have needed to worry about going dark when they were fighting to defend the galaxy and its inhabitants and themselves from very aggressive invaders.

Nobody145

Didn't Luke manipulate a dovin basin early in the war with the Force? but it is possible to use the Force indirectly against the Vong

Yes, and he did actively battle the YV in VP, fighting against thousands of coral skippers at one point. He also defeated YV with lightsabers when he rescued Jacen in the Dark Tide duology. The passive Luke showed up soon thereafter.

The problem for a Jedi is trying to concentrate enough to hurl a boulder at a Vong while defending against amphistaff blows, razor bugs, thud bugs, and without any Force precognitive warnings that usually let Jedi easily deflect blaster bolts.

But as I said, Luke and other Jedi DID manage to do this when they did face them. It was Luke's reluctance to have the Jedi fight the YV at all that was the major problem. In DW, WJW had Luke use this as his excuse for changing his mind about battling them. Luke says,

"At the beginning I was deeply disturbed by the fact the Yuuzhan Vong couldn't be found in the Force. It seemed to me that they might be a mockery of the Force, a deliberate profanation of life, and that I would be destined to led a dark crusade against them. It would have been a dreadful thing. So many Jedi would have turned aginst the light in a war like that. I might not have been able to resist the darkness myself."

Luke said that new information changed his mind:

"It's now possible to understand that the YV aren't some exception to the rules of creation. If we can't see them in the Force, it's our fault, not theirs. We can fight