Lit SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Jedi Ben, Mar 22, 2008.

  1. Lord_Riven Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 13, 2001
    star 4
    I'd actually respectfully disagree to that one. It is a story of Anakin's internal struggle to be a good being rather than an exterior struggle against the evil Empire. Yes. That is a revision of the focus from the external to the internal but it is still ultimately a story of good vs evil, and good does triumph. It still I believe a story of heroes fighting and ultimately winning over darkness, in the end, Anakin chose his son, chose the light side of the Force over the dark side.

    Anakin in the end doesn't capitulate or fail, at the vital moment he chooses, and makes the right choice.

    For me it's taking Episode's 1-6 as a whole rather than as two Trilogies. And when you take it as a whole, I think that it is Anakin's story. Yes there is a big 18 year gap between PT and OT but ultimately it is Anakin's struggle against the darkness and his triumph.

    Why? Even if Anakin is the central figure, who says they can't develop Luke as a different type of hero? Who decrees that each hero has to be the same?

    That's half the point, I believe of the Legacy comics - to show that not every Skywalker is a Lukev2.0-bot. Each Skywalker has their own personality, their own morals, their own beliefs, skills and should be treated as individual beings by the authors.

    Of course, we do know that the authors do tend to drop the ball a lot with Luke, and the other Skywalkers.

    I'm excited that author's can do the 'hero' thing in a non-traditional way. However, they are starting to flood us with too many 'flawed' heroes. But that just may be because of societal views changing to a more pluralistic view.
  2. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2000
    star 10
    Though, one could say he could have made the right choice 23 years earlier and saved a lot of people a lot of suffering. I've liked the notion that Anakin made the wrong choice and failed, but Luke making the right one is what convinced Anakin to redeem his past failure, do the right thing, and "break even" in the grand cosmic karma of things.
  3. ChildOfWinds Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2001
    star 5
    J_K_DART

    When DR got the contract, they recognised (rightly, I think) that Luke's two major arcs through Bantam - his singleness and his Jedi Order - were concluded.

    I don't know that you could say that Luke's Jedi Order arc was concluded in Bantam; not by a long shot! I would say he was just beginning to "get it right". If you remember, Luke discussed with Mara at the end of VotF some of his future ideas for Jedi training. One of the main things he talked about was sort of "on the job training", having Masters and apprentices going out into the galaxy to work together. I really would have loved to have seen the result of that decision. It would have been fun to go on some of those missions with the Jedi and their apprentices and seeing Jedi in action, especially during times of relative peace, resolving conflicts and putting out "small fire" wars before they escalated. It would have been good to see them meeting and dealing with those "...hundred terrible somethings" that were supposed to be in the Unknown Regions too.

    Instead of crafting a new arc for him, their initial response was to conclude that it was time for Luke to go. Lucas nixed the idea, and DR have been playing 'ooopsie' ever since. Shoehorning Luke into the early NJO led to a poor characterisation that has never been fully recovered from.

    I do agree about this. There was a chance to fix this in DN, but things went even farther downhill when a strange interpretation of what Luke said at the end of TUF led to some really odd, and even dark, Jedi behavior by Luke and the rest of the Jedi.

    Meanwhile, the PT's release forced a reappraisal by DR of what it means to be a Jedi, and, as the foremost Jedi, Luke was reinterpreted as a result - erroneously so.

    I agree that the PT was not good for Luke or his Jedi Order. It was evident that the PT Jedi had some flaws that needed correcting. Unfortunately, with the advent of the PT, the authors started to include some of those flaws in the NJO. Luke's Order was just beginning to do well and to be a new and better Order when the changes were made. I found it disappointing.

    Luke's mischaracterisation has lessened;

    I'm not sure I agree with that, Dart. ;) Yes, there have been a few good moments, like the Shimrra duel and Luke schooling Jacen with a chair. Unfortunately, those moments have been few and far between. In about 30 books (NJO, DN, LotF), we've gotten maybe a handful of good Luke scenes in all. Luke's character is all over the map, depending on who writes him.

    And I REALLY hated having Luke kill Lumiya the way he did. :(

    There's still an essential place for SOS in Lit, imo.

    OH, YES! ;)

    AnnLouise

    The tipping point for me was Revelation and seeing a series about the legacy of the Force fail to make use of the GFFA's greatest hero of the Force - Luke Skywalker.

    It DOES seem REALLY odd to have a series titled "Legacy of the Force" but see Luke who is the creator and Leader of the new Order, participate so infrequently in the series. It doesn't look like he'll be doing much in Invincible either. It's even more disappointing to see Luke giving such a poor example to the other Jedi by killing for revenge in Sacrifice. What kind of a Legacy is that? Right now, it looks like Luke isn't leaving much of a legacy at all,....not a good one anyway, with Jacen a Sith and Luke himself going against 40 years of Jedi principles when he killed Lumiya.

    If the SW saga becomes Anakin's story, instead of Luke's, there is a major change in the whole outlook of SW. It's not a story of heroes fighting, and ultimately winning, over the darkness;

    I agree that it does become a major change. It becomes a story championing a villain as the major focus. That just doesn't sit well with me. I prefer heroes to villains, and I like having the HERO be the focus of the story. I think Lucas went overboard with Anakin. What was originally supposed to be the "back story" to the OT, became the MAIN story. As one who saw the
  4. SuperWatto Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 19, 2000
    star 5
    CoW... Lemme get this straight...
    You don't enjoy the books since VP.
    You don't enjoy the prequels.
    You don't enjoy the clone wars...

    Which is perfectly alright by me, you're entirely free to think so, but...
    You must have not been enjoying stuff for ten years now! I guess I'm wondering why you're still hanging on.
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  5. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    Fans can only express how much they love something (like STar Wars) by how much they hate what's coming out.
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  6. ChildOfWinds Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2001
    star 5
    SuperWatto
    .
    CoW... Lemme get this straight...
    You don't enjoy the books since VP.
    You don't enjoy the prequels.
    You don't enjoy the clone wars...

    Which is perfectly alright by me, you're entirely free to think so, but...
    You must have not been enjoying stuff for ten years now! I guess I'm wondering why you're still hanging on


    I wonder that myself sometimes. ;) What can I say? I'm a Star Wars fan! I keep hoping that the next book WILL be just what I'm looking for! There HAVE been a few good things that have happened along the way. They've just been too few and far between as far as I'm concerned. Using the library now instead of buying books means that I can still keep up with what's happening, while at the same time not lining the publisher's pockets. I wish more people would do that. Maybe then I WOULD get books that were more to my liking.

    I DO like KotoR, and I would probably like Legacy if it weren't set so close to LotF.
  7. Emperor_Time Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 31, 2007
    star 4
    I sure hope that Zayne is Shimi's ancestor since that means that Zayne will not become Darth Nihilus instead. [face_praying]
  8. SuperWatto Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 19, 2000
    star 5
    All I needed to know! [face_peace]
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  9. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    [image=http://www.penny-arcade.com/images/2008/20080218.jpg]

    My opinion on the absence of Luke Skywalker's heroism in a nutshell for the NJO.
  10. Havac Former Moderator

    Member Since:
    Sep 29, 2005
    star 7
    This is pretty much the definition of off-topic. I'm going to leave it to serve as a testament of what not to do.
  11. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    Fixed.

    Now, are you going to alter your post above?

    No offense Havac, but are you really going to watch this thread like a hawk for some reason? Is it really THAT big of a deal to you?
  12. Havac Former Moderator

    Member Since:
    Sep 29, 2005
    star 7
    Why would I alter the post? It's a stellar example of what not to do.

    And I don't know about like a hawk, but the whole reason SOS was locked and redirected to the EUC was that it was doing all sorts of stuff that Lit threads aren't really for. So now it's an EUC thread where you can drop in and use it as a little social thread to post whatever little Penny Arcade comic crosses your mind. The only reason this thread was allowed to be created was to allow serious discussion of Luke's characterization, and that only. If you want a place to do whatever you want, the EUC thread is ready and waiting for you.

    Is it THAT big of a deal to you?
  13. rhonderoo Former Head Admin

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2002
    star 9
    Charles, maybe asking Havac that question in a PM is a better way to go. ;)


    I'm actually liking the idea of KOTOR'S Zayne being Shmi's ancestor, thereby making the circle full. He reminds me a lot of Luke, with a little bit of Anakin Sr. thrown in.
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  14. DarkScythe Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2002
    star 2
    I'm not a fan of any KoToR character being a Skywalker ancestor. As it's several thousand years unless the Skywalker line pulls a Sunrider(only IIRC Six Generations between Nomi and Vima Da Booda) there really isn't any need to establish Zayne or anyone else as Shmi's distant Ancestor.
  15. Darth_Hydra Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 14, 2001
    star 4
    I wish more people were like you. Too many here will complain and complain but they're still at the bookstore the very day a new book is released. Even though I don't like much about LOTF I still find the series interesting enough to pay the $7.99 cover price.
  16. Starwolf76 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 12, 2006
    star 1
    There a few elements Zahn introduced that I didn't quite understand, specifically the Emperor's


    Well, with the obvious exception of Chewbacca, the Rebels in "A New Hope" and "Empire Strikes Back" were human as well. We didn't see any alien Rebels until "Return of the Jedi." I believe the Q&A section of an issue of Star Wars: Insider explained that we only saw one "cell" of the Alliance in ANH and ESB, not seeing the whole group (with more aliens) until ROTJ.



    They couldn't have even asked nicely? Zahn was really the one who should have written "The Death of Mara Jade Skywalker." Perhaps we'll luck out and he'll write more about her origin, and how the Emperor "found" her.

    I'm not sure of my least favorite, yet. It seems most of the gloomier stories happened from Vector Prime onward.



    I haven't read all of DN, but what I have read is a real downer, especially Luke finding out some painful truths about his parents. (Jacen did not quite realizing what the "big deal" was about Anakin's actions, showing they had planned his Dark Side tendencies pretty early.)
    But it was time for the Solo-Skywalker clan to find out about Padme.

    Well, it *looks* like Ben becoming an assassin was part of Jacen's plan to turn him into his Sith apprentice. Does that make it a nefarious plan of Jacen instead of Karen Traviss? Luke's regret over his killing Lumiya (who wanted to die anyway) *might* be addressed in a more proper way in Invincible. So far, all he's said so far is that it made him "weak," without really saying "I shouldn't have done that."

    I've read Revelations. The "Mandalorians are the salt of the Earth" line continues there as well. They just look like mercenaries and hired goons to me. Effective mercenaries and hired goons, however.

    It was Mara who told Jacen, "Luke will crush you."


    Based on an unofficial brief summary/ad for Invincible I heard, a double team with Luke and Jaina may go on against Jacen. Given his skill and ego, Jacen would probably see it as a worthy challenge instead of unfair.


  17. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    I'm going to respond to your above post in PM, Havac because I think that I shouldn't clog up the thread with off-topic chatter.
  18. Emperor_Time Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 31, 2007
    star 4
    I feel the same way. :cool:
  19. RK_Striker_JK_5 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2003
    star 7
    Not a big fan, either. ;) Although the Legacy stuff's not too bad, from what I've read. I just wish Luke's legacy was a little better. I loved him talkin with Cade, there.

    Ah, Luke. To me, it was always his story. Not Anakin Whinewalker's. Anakin failed. Luke succeeded.
  20. ReaperFett Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 9, 1999
    star 6
    I don't like it for the simple fact that I hate the idea that there was always an important person from a certain family tree. In 100 years time we wont see politics being led by people called Bush, Blair/Brown, Putin et al, let alone in 4000 years.
  21. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    Actually, almost certainly we will have people descended from those lines in power.
  22. Nobody145 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 9, 2007
    star 4
    Though actually, its more like Luke helped Anakin to finally fulfill his destiny of bringing balance to the Force... by dropping Palpatine down several dozen stories. But in terms of all six movies, it is kind of more Anakin's story. I prefer to think of it as Luke's story, but he only appeared in three (four, if you count RotS) movies while Anakin was in a major character in all six movies.

    And on the Zayne=Skywalker ancestor, I wouldn't mind making Zayne more important, especially since in about seven years, most of the KotOR galaxy will revolve around Revan and then the Jedi Exile. Of course, Zayne is already more awesome than either of those two, but making Zayne Luke's ancestor would elevate him a lot. But it would also still fit in with Zayne's underdog status as nobody would have any idea why the name Skywalker is important for four thousand years. And if the Fetts get an ancestor 4,000 years ago, then some other family lines should last at least that long.

    If they really had to kill Mara, Zahn probably would've given her a better death scene, but its probably better they keep him away from the LotF trainwreck. And during that ridiculous round-robin interviwew at the back of Inferno, I think Denning mentioned that he planted some seeds for LotF during the DNT. I didn't mind the DNT as much as most other people seem too, if only because it had one of the best Luke duels in years.

    And its kind of funny having Luke nag at Cade again and again. He's like a conscience Cade can only drown out by knocking himself out with deathsticks. Cade finally listens a little, but its still hard to see where Cade will go. Even future summaries are still very vague at the moment (here's praying the next Legacy issue does come out in April).

    And so far, Luke and a Jedi Master (Saba, during Fury) are still a match for Caedus. Caedus had squads of YVH war droids to slow down Luke's invading party, and Saba was taken out by a grenade explosion. Killing Caedus isn't that incredibly hard, they just need an opportunity. Caedus is usually on the bridge of his personal Star Destroyer, so hard to get to him there, and otherwise, Caedus just keeps escaping, or Luke is still sulking about his vengeance kill of Lumiya. Luke could've shot Caedus down in Fury, but held back because he sensed Allana on board. Then he seems to backslide in Revelation and just scolds Caedus a lot while tearing apart Caedus' starfighter. Why Luke didn't bother to blow up Caedus' starfighter then, I'll never understand. :rolleyes: Luke could've just shot Caedus after taking Caedus apart in their duel, but that would be a bit too much for Luke, unfortunately. Its not quite as annoying as Nom Anor or Viqi Shesh constantly escaping during the NJO, but Caedus' constant defeats and escapes are geting up there in terms of annoyance. Oh well, only one more book, unless they decide to have Caedus escape and be a future villain, but considering Caedus killed Mara, I'd hope they wouldn't let him get away. Though the alternatives of either Jaina or Luke killing him aren't exactly appealing either... I'd cheer if he ended up dead, but it would still do a lot of psychological trauma to the rest of his family.
  23. ChildOfWinds Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2001
    star 5
    Charlemagne19 :

    For me, I simplify it.
    The Original Trilogy: Luke Skywalker's story
    The Prequels: Anakin Skywalker's story.


    Yes, that works for me too. I also consider Luke the most important hero of the saga and Anakin Skywalker/Vader the most important villain of the story.

    Honestly, I think part of the problem with Luke killing Lumiya is that it's something that absolutely needed to be done.

    For me, that's not the problem. Yes, Lumiya needed to be killed at this point. Yes, Luke should have been the one to do it. No, Luke shouldn't have killed as a vengeful husband, but as a Jedi Master doing his duty by ridding the galaxy of a dangerous threat.


    Nobody145 :

    I wouldn't mind having Zayne related to the Skywalkers, but don't need him to be part of the family tree.

    Well, with all those years between Zayne and Shmi/Anakin/Luke, there wouldn't be much of a relationship between them, would there? I do like the idea of Zayne being Luke's ancestor. Just as Cade ties the Legacy era to Luke and his family, Zayne would tie the KotoR era to Luke and his family.

    Sometimes I wish Luke wasn't so set on redeeming almost everybody, but that's part of what makes him so great. I do wish Luke would just get around to killing his nephew. Not exactly a nice thing, but... there has to be a certain point when enough is enough.

    I like that Luke is the "Great Redeemer". I'd like to see Luke redeem Jacen, but Force strip him. From the Invincible blurb though, I think another character is far more likely to kill, redeem, or strip Jacen of the Force. :(


    MasterSkywalker86 :

    I suppose prison would be a cheap way out, I wouldn't have minded her death if Luke killed her in self defense.

    That would have been fine for me too, or he could have stripped Lumiya of the Force, as you suggested.

    the only thing that seem odd was his display of the Force with the Gammeroans guards, which was nothing more than knocking them out. I kinda wish Luke used a different mannerism though...

    As I said, Luke was new at the Jedi stuff in RotJ! He probably didn't know about any other ways to temporarily incapacitate them. ;)


    Lord_Riven

    Why? Even if Anakin is the central figure, who says they can't develop Luke as a different type of hero? Who decrees that each hero has to be the same?

    Of course two heroes can be developed differently. The point is though that I don't consider Anakin to BE a hero. He was certainly the major villain in the OT, but already in AotC he was killing off women and children in a vengeance killing. That's another reason that I REALLY hated that Luke was written as killing Lumiya for revenge in Sacrifice. Heroes shouldn't stoop to the same level as the heroes. :(


    The2ndQuest :

    Though, one could say he could have made the right choice 23 years earlier and saved a lot of people a lot of suffering. I've liked the notion that Anakin made the wrong choice and failed, but Luke making the right one is what convinced Anakin to redeem his past failure, do the right thing, and "break even" in the grand cosmic karma of things.

    Nicely and succinctly said!

    Starwolf76

    Luke's regret over his killing Lumiya (who wanted to die anyway) *might* be addressed in a more proper way in Invincible. So far, all he's said so far is that it made him "weak," without really saying "I shouldn't have done that."

    While we may not have actually heard Luke say that he shouldn't have killed Lumiya in so many words, I think it's more than implied on p. 37 of Inferno where Luke is thinking to himself: "After the mistake he had made with Lumiya--after his own erroneous vengeance killing of her--he could not bear the thought of making such an error with his own nephew. If there was a way to reach Jacen, he had to try."

    A couple of pages later, Luke says to Ben, "You don't have to be fourteen to make mistakes. I've been making plenty." I'm pretty sure one of those mis
  24. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    One point about Anakin Skywalker that I'm not sure has been raised here is that, on his own, he wasn't the sharpest tool in the box. Oh he was certainly skilled, but those skills did not extend to people and politics, once he got him on his own Sidious knew he would get him, why else was he so focused on seperating him from Obi-Wan? - which brings us to Luke. I tend to see one point of ROTJ being that a Jedi, even a supremely skilled one, cannot conquer the dark side alone. It took both Luke and Anakin to kill the Emperor.

    Consequently I can't buy the notion that eps 1-6 should all be perceivied through Anakin, that seems a crude reduction of a series of films that can be interpreted in multiple ways through various characters. I find it strange that there should be an insistence upon a singular interpretation when the material is rich enough to support several. Sure there are notions that can be subjected to a single line: Use of the dark side = wrong, sometimes it may be a lesser or greater wrong depending on the details, but it still isn't advisable.

    Returning to Luke, it's interesting that the craftier elements of Luke's personality aren't often looked at. Luke is a good deal defter at dealing with politicians than is often shown, BP has a good example of this. Equally the entire operation in DW aimed at securing Omas' as Chief of State would never have worked without the various senators being so corrupt - had they chosen to own up to their actions publicly and still vote for Rodan then that would have been that. As it is, the senators went down the road of looking after number 1 and screwing Rodan, but it was always their choice. What Luke came to understood is the faith in the entire democratic process was on the verge of collapse and with that goes any authority that resides within it. Would Rodan have been so bad? Given his atheistic hostility to the Force, the relationship with the Jedi would have likely and quickly gone bad, which given the Jedi's role in opposing the Vong would have screwed the galaxy.
  25. patchworkz7 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2004
    star 4
    Reposted from the REV thread at CoW's request:

    I think Luke's words; "I'd never let you fall", are some of the most loaded in all of SW, and I find it interesting that Karen has said that there are three times she cried upon rereading a scene she had written; the death of Mara (and Ben and Luke's reaction), the death of Lumiya, and the appearence of the Force Ghost of Mara to Ben and Luke.

    For me, the words that Luke speaks are just loaded with meaning upon meaning, and since Luke is NOT a character who is prone to vengence, and because he has sought out the good in Lumiya for some time, to the point of holding back and letting Mara go after her because Mara and the JC were worried he'd hesitate out of love (an interesting juxtaposition with Jaina's situation I hadn't thought of), and because I think he had loved the person who Lumiya was and wanted very badly to bring her back into the light...well, I think it just shows the humanity of Luke Skywalker, a man with the power of a god, but still a man who loves and is loved, and who is subject to all the fears and anger of any mortal.