Lit SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Jedi Ben, Mar 22, 2008.

  1. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    Uhhh, Luke already said he had sex with her and then backtracked.

    So, clearly he's a liar to Mara one way or the other.
  2. Auditor Dredd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 4
  3. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    Luke points out that he's seen Shira naked and there's some induendo while exploring her bedroom with Mara.

    Besides, Luke is downplaying his bevy of girlfriends at this time.

    I don't see anything out of character for Luke to try and minimize that he had a relationship with A PSYCHOTIC KILLER.
  4. Auditor Dredd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 4
    if that's the case why the need to assure Mara his relationship was not a physical one ? they have a forcebond she would known when he lies.
  5. ChildOfWinds Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2001
    star 5
    A question for all of you: Should we go back to our old thread title of "SOS Luke Skywalker, Version 3" or should we keep the current one: SOS Save Our Skywalker: Luke, Friends, and Family. Either way, RF says the focus of the posts must relate to Luke in some way, though the occasional off-topic comments will be allowed. RF will change it back if we want to change it.


    MasterSkywalker86

    if that's the case why the need to assure Mara his relationship was not a physical one ? they have a forcebond she would known when he lies

    I'm with you, MS. I'll post more on this later.
  6. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    Unless, you know. Luke decided for her not to know. Being a Jedi Master, he could sort of do that.

    But, in canon, Mara didn't believe him when she was told.

    Doesn't that utterly undercut your argument?
  7. Auditor Dredd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 4
    Unless, you know. Luke decided for her not to know. Being a Jedi Master, he could sort of do that.

    which would be a mind manipulation on his own wife, which sounds like a abuse of his powers when I think he would be man enough to tell her. either way would have been a lie and I don't see evidence or enough reason for Luke to lie about a fling he had with a potential dark sider nut.

    also wouldn't she have known already since VOTF when they first established the Forcebond...it's canon there was nothing to hide for either of them.

    your basing the fling happened because Mara believe it so ? it's not like she has been wrong before.....

    Just to let you know that IMO for fictional characters their personal love life is entirely up to them and I suppose different customs apply when we're talking about the SW universe. would you have the exact quote that allows that backs up your pet theory ?

  8. NelanisGhost Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2006
    star 4
    Yes, but by this time, they have cooled a bit in their bond. She took off without Luke and didn't tell him anything. She rolled her eyes at him behind his back.

    I think Luke and Mara are completely OOC in the LOTF, but that is what is on the page. It's being together for 20 years. You get a little pull back. You can't be eternally all over each other because it's not reailistic. Back in the NJO, they were still pretty much newlyweds and Mara was sick and things were scary. By LOTF,t hey are the unquestioned "masters of the universe". Complacent. And everyone grows and changes constantly. They are no exception.
  9. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    Actually, I assume that he could simply block her knowing. I don't think their force bond is a lie-detector either.

    And I don't have the books anymore, I gave them away to a friend who couldn't afford the series.

    But believe what you like, it was ambigious.
  10. Ulicus Lit'ari

    Manager
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    Jul 24, 2005
    star 6
    I prefer to believe that Luke meant it wasn't *all* physical. ;)

    Besides, in the run up to the end of Exile, Luke reflects on feeling bad for lying to Mara... and it's left ambigious enough for us to be able to stretch it to refer to his talk about not having been physical with her.

    Personally, I think this should be one of those: "it's up to us" things.
  11. Auditor Dredd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 4
    I guess so, i felt it rather leaning toward my way, unless somehow Shira and Luke had a quickie before fighter prep. ;)

    but the kiss at least how it was depicted surprised Luke, so it seems that's the first sign of affection he had with her.


    C dish out another topic, this Shira business bores me....
  12. J_K_DART Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2001
    star 5
    A few thoughts on the themes currently being discussed:

    1) The relationship between Luke and Lumiya
    I have to be honest, I do think Luke was young then. I haven't read much of the period, but what little I know suggests to me that he was still an impressionable kid with an attractive girl chatting him up for possibly the first time. Furthermore, neither Luke nor Shira were in a particularly chaste environment (see X-wing books as evidence of that...). Personally I don't believe in sex before marriage as being the best thing in the world, but my fictional heroes aren't bound by my rules, and I just see this as an area where Luke, well, wasn't me. At the same time, it's a truly human element. As TMcE observes, I've heard it said many times there's a kiss then a gap of several hours, which seems to me to be an obvious subtext. What's more, I think the basic premise of LotF implies that Luke once loved her. I think his feelings for Shira were utterly mixed up. Consider; first major reciprocated crush, first kiss, first lover, then he shoots her down just as the feelings are all up in the air. Whether Marvel implied this is irrelevant; I think it's the LotF retcon. And the same book in which Luke says he 'didn't' to Mara has him making a crack about Lumiya's underwear. Frankly, it seems to me that the only explanation for the 'holding-hands' scene is that Luke being Luke, his heart being so easily given away, still cares for her even under all this and has been holding back. When Mara is killed, yes, a part of him wants vengeance; but another part of him just wants to end this. It's not revenge, it's a need for everything with Lumiya to be closed, for the tangles in his heart to be unlooped once and for all so that he can finally grieve. And this is why he is so heart-wrenched when he discovers Lumiya didn't actually kill Mara. He'd finally got that closure, so that he could grieve his wife. Then, suddenly, it was denied him once and for all.

    Was Luke right to do this? Yes, because Lumiya couldn't be safely held. No, because his motives were predominantly self-motivated and not Jedi-centric. He was flat-out in the wrong according to the Jedi Code imo.

    2) What can they do with Luke next?
    Well, as has been observed Luke's not even had a character arc really since Zahn. He needs authors who can actually write him, who can work out ways to make him handy. I agree that the Zahn-style portrayal is a good one, although at the same time there needs to be a genuine character arc, not just a couple of good books here and there. But then, this is true for everyone concerned. What's Jaina's character-arc been? In LotF, it's been to be a Jedi ground-striker, return to being a pilot and get kicked out in the same book, then randomly hunt a Dark Jedi for a while, then step up to train to kill Jacen. Not particularly well-patterned imo. What's Zekk's character arc been? To be a love interest for Jaina (unresolved, likely to stay so), to hunt Alema. Finally, he seemed to slip into the Dark Side; will that be remembered and become an actual character arc, a plot of progression? I doubt it. What's Tahiri's arc been? Um, to be a Jedi strike-force member in Betrayal, then step out until randomly taken up as an agent by Jacen, then promoted to his Apprentice simply because he was the only Jedi Jacen had any contact with anymore. Not a good one, really... Mara, strangely enough, has had a fairly good character arc. Concerned re: Luke's visions, brought into play helping her husband hunt down Lumiya, then convinced he can't handle it she takes over. (Of course, the devil was in the details, which weren't nearly so effective as that progression promised...)

    Luke needs a character arc. He needs a reason to be, a way in which to grow and develop as a person, rather than just becoming a static force brought into play to end the series. What can it be? Maybe he can be tied to restoring the GA; maybe he can actually enter politics full-scale for a while?
  13. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    Okay, controversial topic, I'd like to see Luke remarry after Legacy of the Force. Yes, he's an old man but Harrison Ford has remarried and so have plenty of other successful men with a large fan following without the benefits of super-magical tech and the Force.

    Qui Gon Jinn was in his sixties in The Phantom Menace and looked just fine. Albeit, Obi Wan Kenobi looked like Hell by comparison.
  14. dizfactor Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2002
    star 5
    A lot of people have mentioned the harsh Tatooine climate, but I have seen a more specific argument that I find more convincing:

    UV radiation from the sun is a major contributor to aging skin. Tatooine has two suns, hence a much higher than normal level of UV radiation. Hence, Obi-Wan's skin looks like that of a man much, much older than he is.
  15. ChildOfWinds Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2001
    star 5
    J_K_DART

    Re: Luke and politicians, I think the most interesting commentary on this was in the Corellian trilogy. Mothma argues, if Leia has skills she has not chosen to develop that she shares with Luke, then the same is true of Luke; he has political skills that he has not chosen to develop.

    I think that would have been an intriguing character arc for Luke. It would have been very interesting to see Luke as a political leader. While I can certainly see why it's probably best not to have powerful Force wielders as leaders of the galaxy, it certainly would have been a twist to see Luke as Chief of State. I actually think he might have been a surprisingly good one. Though Leia shares Luke's Force gifts, I think she was a good CoS.

    So you're saying that Zahn was pointing Luke's arc as Jedi and leader of the Order in a new direction, that of Masters and apprentices working together on missions throughout the galaxy? If so, I do agree with you. And no, it wasn't developed that way.

    Charlemagne19

    Actually, I considered Shira Brie to be genuinely falling for Luke Skywalker. The kiss she gave him was genuine and I believe we were (as the readers) expected to believe that Shira Brie was going to defect and join the Rebellion for real.

    That's certainly a different take on the story, C. Why then would the Force have warned him then that an enemy was in her TIE though? I would think that if Shira Brie was no longer a threat to Luke or the Rebellion, that he wouldn't have gotten that Force warning.

    It's also twisted with the tragedy that he loves Lumiya as a former friend and intends to kill her for her own good as well.

    I wish Luke would have killed her because she was a threat to the galaxy instead.

    Thrawn McEwok

    Welcome to the SOS thread, McE!

    The caption says, "...sometime later". I don't believe Luke would like to Mara. Also, as MS86 says, they had that special Force bond, and in that cloning chamber, they knew each others' deepest secrets. Mara would know if Luke and Shira Brie had been intimate. I prefer to think they weren't.

    I'll go so far as to say that DelRey may have ALREADY fatally damaged the character in the canon continuity: they've had him being ineffectual for the length of TWO full story-arcs in NJO and DN3, and while he stood up and took out his lightsaber at the end of both, he's in danger of becoming something of a cliché.

    I agree. Things seem even worse in LotF. When Luke actually DID take action, he did it in the worst way possible: killing Lumiya for revenge. :( You're right that then he also reverted back to his usual "moral hesitancy". I doubt that Luke will even get to be effectual at the end of LotF. From the Invincible blurb, it seems that Jaina will face and defeat Jacen/Caedus. :(

    I've generally liked the way he writes Luke - not least because he depicts him as a great tactical-level starfighter commander, which is what he is and always was.

    That part is fine; I too like Luke as a starfighter commander. But I think his role as a Jedi is more important and gives him more of an opportunity to make an impact than just as an X-wing pilot. There's no doubt that Luke loves being a pilot, but he accomplishes more as a Jedi.

    and the paralysed Luke who did nothing for the length of Sacrifice until he lost his temper at the end had no heroism at all;

    I agree. As I keep saying, Luke was more like a villain. He actually snored through much of Sacrifice until the vengeance killing too. Unfortunately, I also have to agree that Luke IS "starting to look like a moral hypocrite, and an incompetent as well". Luke just keeps regressing instead of growing. :(

    I hope Zahn gets to write Luke again.

    Charlemagne19

    Counterpoint, Luke isn't exactly a chaste fellow either.

    Well, below is my take on that. Dawud, you may appreciate this: ;)

    I just interpret all of his relationships with women before Mara to have been innocent ones t
  16. Auditor Dredd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 4
    bravo Dart =D= you just stated all my opinions with a flair for writing that I just do not possess.

    have to be honest, I do think Luke was young then. I haven't read much of the period, but what little I know suggests to me that he was still an impressionable kid with an attractive girl chatting him up for possibly the first time. Furthermore, neither Luke nor Shira were in a particularly chaste environment (see X-wing books as evidence of that...). Personally I don't believe in sex before marriage as being the best thing in the world, but my fictional heroes aren't bound by my rules,

    hmmmm.....this might leave room due to the time perhaps, but it would honestly depend on Luke in which direction he goes with Shira, we can note that he didn't take advantage of Deena Shan, which implies he had that type of moral mindset. this would have been a more black and white case with say characters like Han or Lando ;)

    also I'm of the mindset that sex can wait til after marriage but as in RL and fictional characters it really comes down to personal choice and the characters aren't bound to some ethics as we're in RL.




    Well, as has been observed Luke's not even had a character arc really since Zahn. He needs authors who can actually write him, who can work out ways to make him handy. I agree that the Zahn-style portrayal is a good one, although at the same time there needs to be a genuine character arc, not just a couple of good books here and there. But then, this is true for everyone concerned. What's Jaina's character-arc been? In LotF, it's been to be a Jedi ground-striker, return to being a pilot and get kicked out in the same book, then randomly hunt a Dark Jedi for a while, then step up to train to kill Jacen.


    I been reading SotP and it has been enjoyable to see Luke in character and for once I feel like it's an actual SW book. The character is resourceful, powerful, wise, and has that moral goodness we witness in the movies and the older books. I would like to have Luke with somehing important to do instead of being a background character until the last book, but if it's dealing with the Dark Side again count me out, that issue has been overdone. as with Luke I also feel Jaina has been used rather poorly to ultimately stopping evil at the end of the series.

    Not particularly well-patterned imo. What's Zekk's character arc been? To be a love interest for Jaina (unresolved, likely to stay so), to hunt Alema. Finally, he seemed to slip into the Dark Side; will that be remembered and become an actual character arc, a plot of progression? I doubt it. What's Tahiri's arc been? Um, to be a Jedi strike-force member in Betrayal, then step out until randomly taken up as an agent by Jacen, then promoted to his Apprentice simply because he was the only Jedi Jacen had any contact with anymore. Not a good one, really... Mara, strangely enough, has had a fairly good character arc. Concerned re: Luke's visions, brought into play helping her husband hunt down Lumiya, then convinced he can't handle it she takes over. (Of course, the devil was in the details, which weren't nearly so effective as that progression promised...)

    I found it odd that he said he didn't care anymore, yet when Jag arrived he started reverting to his old self again....what a hypocrite. I disagree with Mara's handling, her end could have been a lot better. I still don't understand why she didn't warned others or had backup plan, it's not like Mara to ruled out the possibilty that she might die when fighting Jacen.

    Luke needs a character arc. He needs a reason to be, a way in which to grow and develop as a person, rather than just becoming a static force brought into play to end the series. What can it be? Maybe he can be tied to restoring the GA; maybe he can actually enter politics full-scale for a while?

    they should focus on previous jedi master arcs and somehow find something revelant for Luke to discovered in himself....
  17. Auditor Dredd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 4
    would he the first jedi master to remarry ? honestly I think there would be no point, he found his counterpoint and wishes to join her when he dies.
  18. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    So, Luke had his first physical relationship with Mara. wink

    Yep, Luke was a forty year old virgin in Child of Wind's universe.

    :-B

    Because, clearly couples who go to romantic locations would never have sex there! The use of "lovers" to describe him and Callista was also just an artistic choice on KJA's part!

    O:)

    I know it's fanon but I tend to view Luke as having a lot of romances (note, I don't say just plain old sex). Also, I tend to view Mara Jade having had an adult relationship with Kyle Katarn. I don't mock those who save themselves for marriage but I tend to think that Luke Skywalker was a man that had several strongly intimate relationships with certain women and that included Shira Brie.

    As for why Shira Brie registered as an Imperial, Luke was sensing her loyalty to the EMPIRE not her status as a danger to himself.

    That was explicit in the storyline.

  19. Auditor Dredd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 4
    with Akanah and Callista I agree they were intimate but I dunno about Shira. it seems to made more into something than it actually was.
  20. NewStaryknight Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2007
    star 4
    If Luke happened to have sex with others before Mara its no big deal. I've seen plenty of heroes in comics that have had intimate relationships before they got to their actual spouses. Superman was intimate with Lana Lang before Lois Lane, Spiderman went out with Gwen Stacy before Mary Jane, Cyclops was married to Jean Grey for years but after she died(again) recently he's now having relations with Emma Frost every other hour. I tend to think Luke never had sex with any of his previous girlfriends, but if he did thats cool, its not like he's the only one.

    I'll touch on the other issue later.
  21. Ulicus Lit'ari

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    Jul 24, 2005
    star 6
    Hehe.

    "Reciprocal apprenticeship".

    *Chortle*
  22. AnnLouise Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 10, 2005
    star 3
    Yup...not the sharpest tool in the box, dimmest bulb in the socket, one taco short of a combo platter, dumber than a sack full of hammers....beautiful eye candy Anakin may be [face_batting] (at least until the end of ROTS), but his kids are lucky their inherited their mother's smarts (such as they were).

    The PT - or the timing of it - also led to something that made Luke - and Leia - appear almost as slow on the uptake as their old man. They finally learn in the DN trilogy everything we saw in ROTS; I know the "real world" reason why, but it seems hard to believe that they'd be unable to find out anything about that time until R2 develops a glitch (or whatever is was). Palp was smart, but I don't think he'd be able to so totally erase history. This is something they'd have been able to find out long before the DN books.

    I like the phrase "moral goodness" a few posts back. It would be wonderful to see that in a SW book again, and displayed by the best example of it in the GFFA. I don't think every hero has to be the same, but they should have something in common. Luke is like Aragorn from LOTR; he's not boring when written well, and tbey're characters who can show doubt, or fear, but without losing the essential core of their personality.
    Anakin, to me isn't a hero, but rather a great tragic failure. And I mean that sincerely, because he's a much greater character without being shoehorned into a heroic mold that doesn't fit. As a failure, his final act of sacrifice finally shows Anakin doing the right thing.
  23. ChildOfWinds Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2001
    star 5

    Starwolf76

    Jedi aren?t exactly squeamish about killing enemies, but usually the important factor is state of mind.

    Right, and that's the problem: I think Luke was in the wrong mindset when he killed Lumiya. It was too personal for him. He wanted to kill her for killing Mara: "A life for a life". If he had wanted to do it to stop the danger to the galaxy that Lumiya represented, that would have been the better mindset.

    Aside from a callback to elements in Betrayal, there had better be some solid reasoning behind this.

    You're right that it seems to be more something Jacen would do than Luke. I just don't understand it at all. How is it supposed to help Jaina to have an illusion of Luke's face on hers, especially if she doesn't even know about it? Won't that be a horrible distraction for her when Jacen calls her "Luke", as he inevitably will? That second of uncertainty could be just enough to give Jacen the advantage. As I said, adding his Force strength to Jaina's WOULD be helpful. Then they could be INVINCIBLE.

    I hope the blurb is wrong.

    RK_Striker_JK_5

    Anakin may have been in more, but it started with Luke. It's his story of basically saving the galaxy.

    Well put, Striker!


    Jedi Ben

    * Hmm, tow cables,

    Right, plus a lightsaber, a cable, and a detonator. I loved how Luke took down one AT-AT single-handedly. Did he give up when he had his snowspeeder knocked out of the sky. Nope! Not Luke!

    So you think Luke should stick with being an X-wing Fighter jock rather than a Jedi???

    I do agree with you and TMcE that authors should give Luke lots of physical and analytical challenges and "have the action come to him". Above all, I'd really like to see Luke be shown as wise, competent, successful, and RIGHT, for a change. Luke shouldn't keep looking like a fool. AND, at this point in his Jedi career, he shouldn't be making such major "mistakes" as killing for revenge. :(

    Charlemagne19

    Actually, I assume that he could simply block her knowing. I don't think their force bond is a lie-detector either.

    The point is, when they had that special Force melding in VotF, they each learned everything about one another, even their "deepest secrets". If Luke and Shira Brie would have had a physical relationship in the past, Mara would have known about it then and there, before their marriage.

    And Ulicus, when Luke reflects on feeling bad about lying to Mara, I believe he was talking about when she said that he seemed very quiet. He told her he was worried about Ben, and that Jacen's actions bothered him, but he had really been pondering Lumiya's words to him and the way she had reached out to him when they sort of held hands near the end of Exile.

    J_K_DART

    Dart, nice, well-written post about Luke and Shira Brie, but I still disagree. I don't think they had a physical relationship. I didn't see it in the Marvel comic, where it said, "sometime later", and I don't believe Luke would lie to Mara about something like that. I don't think she would have been upset if he had. Plus, as I said, with that amazing Force melding, she would have known. But we are in agreement that Luke didn't kill Lumiya in the right frame of mind.

    2) What can they do with Luke next?
    He needs authors who can actually write him, who can work out ways to make him handy.
    Luke needs a character arc. He needs a reason to be, a way in which to grow and develop as a person, rather than just becoming a static force brought into play to end the series.


    =D= =D= =D= Oh, yes! I agree! And I have never understood why authors seem to find Luke so hard to write.

    What can it be? Maybe he can be tied to restoring the GA; maybe he can actually enter politics full-scale for a while?

    As I said, I'd like to see Luke enter politics. It would be a totally new arena for the character, a refreshing new twist. I doubt that it will happen though. Luke
  24. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7

    I don't know, C. I think Luke is a one-woman man. I disagree that he's all that old though. In a galaxy where 120 is the average life expectancy, late fifties is beginning middle age. And Jedi can live even longer. I just doubt that Luke will ever find another soulmate like he had with Mara.


    I don't think he necessarilly needs a soul mate but a partner.
  25. CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus

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    Jul 8, 1999
    star 6
    Saba! You heard it here first!

    *achem*

    I'll do you one better - Lando. I've always disagreed with that "he wore my shirts because we were undercover" line. She was BSing the naive farmboy.