Lit SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Jedi Ben, Mar 22, 2008.

  1. Auditor Dredd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 4
    I hear ya especially if you get invested in every niche of Star Wars. For instance if I had the ability I would like to take a look at Legacy issues #1-50 and the War mini-series and see if I would enjoy the series as well as Cade's character. I mean I like the fact that Luke's guidance saved Cade's life and from the ending Cade seems to finally accept his heritage as a jedi.

    Child got it, it's the Certified Public Accountant exam. If I pass all four parts I become much more essential as a potential employee as I'm certified.

    odd isn't ? well the first Rogue Squadron game on the N64 and PC actually featured a good many missions with Luke as Rogue Leader. It was only til the last mission where you fly as Wedge during the Battle of Mon Calamari in Dark Empire. You think there would have been comics or books on thus said missions.

    dunno if this is helpful but when you pick the image from say google pick the full size image option and copy the url address above. It should end with a .jpg meaning it's the proper jpeg image file for posting.

    ideas out the whazoo, he has a good sense of making magical/powerful moments such as Luke's walk on lava moment but I think he suffers with plot and the inner characterization. For instance during JAT, Luke seem rather somber and uncertain of himself as a teacher, which makes sense after his trials under Sidious in DE but I would think he would have been a bit more firm/strict with Gantoris who was basically screaming to become a DS pupil at the time. Another issue I have (I believe it was him) isn't he the one who felt Luke should be asexual ?!?!??

    I dunno if I would call Stover an exact opposite, it's hard to say too since I only read two of his books Traitor and LS&SoM and both are critically praised. One thing I like about him is he can write pulpy material like OT era stuff and bring a depth of reality to it that you forget that Nick Rostu is wearing a giant moon hat filled with meltmassift . He writes the material as fun, pulpy,enjoyable while being dark and bit gritty. Yet to balance some of the dark tone he brings out the "classic good will beat evil" theme in new and creative ways. The visualization of Luke as a Light Side fountain to Cronal's Black vortex is worth the price of admission.He's probably the most well-rounded author out of EU and it makes his writing special.

    good analysis, although her ideas are somewhat nutty(force ghost romance :eek: ). I'll say she does great work in nailing Luke's character but everything else suffers for it. I remember reading Planet of Twilight and man that was an endurance test as the pacing of the plot went hardly anywhere.

    if there is one strength I can mention about him is he can really describe the metaphysical nature of the Force in an epic manner. He's really good with using imagery with words and painting out powerful moments during battles or really any moments with the Force. Darth Plagueis and TUF pretty much define that.

    Allston is probably the best writer to write snark and humor, hence he's perfect for writing Rogues.

    I don't even know where to begin with Wolverton.....[face_phbbbbt]

    Denning has the problem of using a bit too much gore, and violence in his scenes. The use of the Force is more related to the way he uses magic in his own book series(or so I am told). He also likes to paint the tone of Star Wars more gray than it should be and far too ambiguous when it comes to visions and prophecies. But I enjoy his work on DNT.....so moving on.

    that's a great idea, as I am also going off memory with some and this could use more analysis when we have more time. Still I like observations as they ring too with a lot of the authors you mention.


    awesome find ID

    Ditto, no problem finding the MJ story.

    you're right they did form the squadron together after the Battle of Yavin, but Luke was RL first while Wedge was Rogue Two. As I mention to Kataja above the first Rogue Squadron game had a great many missions where you play as Luke as RL. I believe the missions are still canon, although I think JB would know more than me.

    According to the timeline Rogue Leader takes place one week after ROTJ, so you're right Bakura was first. Rogue Leader actually has both Wedge and Luke(who's a jedi knight now) and the rest of the Rogues on a mission. If you look at one of my earlier posts on the page before you can see Luke telekinetically supporting a falling AT-ST in order to save some of the Rogues.

    ding ding, we have a winner :)
    Last edited by MasterSkywalker86, Dec 17, 2012
  2. Tim Battershell Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 4
    Not wishing to nitpick, but doesn't TaB take longer than a week (travel times, fighting etc.)? And, first, Luke was suffering from Palpy's Lightning attack, then had to contend with those larvae that the Governor infected him with; so extra healing time probably needed too?


    CoW:

    Luke does guest at the end of Krytos Trap and is referenced in Bacta War; but I agree that even Ackbar gets more appearances!

    Was Luke still formally a part of the Military? If so, he'd outrank Wedge (interesting situation)! Also could it be (based on what he said in Krytos Trap) that he was searching for Jedi information almost exclusively at that time?
  3. kataja Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2007
    star 4
    I'd read it the same way. And I'd bet my hat that was the intention of the author too.

    Hey - it's not too late. The x-wing concept was already revived pushing forward the timeline - it could as well go backwards

    Ah. Thanks!

    I have the first two issues, and I'll buy more at some point surely. JediTrace got me buying them and while they didn't pull me in instantly, I think I'll give them a new chance one day when the mood is right.

    Than do that by all means! These are hard times, there's no denying it...

    I think there was a councious effort to focus on other characters than the big 3 at that point. Also, before the PT, there wasn't much fun about being a Jedi, was it? But I still hope we can get those Luke stories. After all, we get some new rebellion stuff both in comics and novels, so you never know what comes next. Also, as long as the EU's fate is uncertain, rebellion times are a safe card.

    Ok, thanks. I'll see if I can manage...

    Oh, dear, was it him who said that - I've quite forgotten... Anyway he writes Luke pretty asexual!!! :(Undynamic in general. He gives him all kind of cool powers and moments - and as you say, he also usually gives the character the proper emotions for the moment (like Luke's bound to be uncertain of himself as he's new as teacher) - but he never digs that layer deeper- and I guess my problem is that I scream to know what happens underneath - exactly this kind of writing frustrates me immensly. And yeah, I think Luke should have opposed Gantoris in quite another manner, as well as Kyp Durron - then most eraders probabyl thought the same, hence Mara's lecture in VOTF

    What do you mean? KHA is bad, Stover is good? Isn't that exact enough? :p No, of course that's now how it is. KJA frustrates me, but his work with SW can't be underestimated. While ┬┤Stover... yes, what you say is right, and he makes so many layers into his text. I just read his "Dark is generous" poem (I have to call it a poem, nothing els will do) from ROTS and it's truly amazing! Not that I'd like him to write all SW - he puts almost too much thought into it from time to time and part of SW is to me that I can rest the busy little head of mine.

    more later...
    Last edited by kataja, Dec 17, 2012
  4. kataja Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2007
    star 4
    True her ideas is her biggest weakness - also the idea that Luke would find the love of his life (that was what Callista was supposed to be) in - a computer? :confused: And that she'd snatch someone else's body in order to come to life? Who thinks like that? I remember looking at the very epic and emotional writing of that romance and compare it with what actually happened and thinkng WTF? And you're right that her plost sometimes just... stop. Same in CotP - Luke cuddles with Calie while his students are in terrible agony...:eek:

    Looking forward to read it ;)

    He's a brilliant generalist - which makes him perfect for SW. They could use a couple of more of his kind.

    His imagination is spectacular. IMO CopL is (after TTT) the best suited book for a movie adaption. Sure, it would be pretty much Zena - but with a smart touch of self irony, it could be a hit. Problem is, that there isn't a hint of irony visible in the novel.

    I guess. My problem is taht I really can't see this. It annoyes me a gerat deal as I try to be a perceptive reader - but I can't see what Denning does taht annoyes people so much! :mad:

    It could be fun. It was my original idea when I joined this therad, to take one novel a time and analyze it along with Luke's role in it, but it just takes so much time...

    It does. Particularly as a GFFA week is five days! Soo... a retcon is obviusly needed. Then again, we can assume that RL is the next thing happening after Bakura.

    Actually, I checked in my Omnibus and there they say "shortly after the Battle of Endor", so maybe that's the retcon already?

    Luke resigns from the military in 5 ABY. I think it's after Mindor, but I'm not entirely sure. While the X-wing novels shoot off from 6,5 ABY. On te other hand, the X-Wing comics take place in 4 and 5 ABY.

    Ok, I checked the text in Rougue Leader. There's some mess as the text both mentions Bakura, but also says it was only a week since Endor. Well... I gues they can retcon the forword but not the actual text in the comic. Anyway, at the end of the story, Luke says he needs someone to lead Rogues Squadron who he can trust and Wedge asks if he's giving his resignation speech. Luke replies "not yet" but that he don't know how much time he can devote to flying. So he's probably divide his time up to Mindor - and only after that focus completely on studying Jedi. It could be fun to see a story where he actually does this - a story of Luke's struggles before DE and even after, but before JAT. What occupies his mind in all this time and what are his challenges. We know something from TTT, but there's after all six years between ROTJ and HttE...

    As for Luke and Wedge - hasn' Luke always outranked Wedge? He blasts into battle of Yavin and even in the battle Wedge acknowldeges him as 'boss' - i don't remember if it's in the movie, but it's in the book. And since then the situation never really changes, does it?
  5. jainasky Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2010
    star 1
    If there is one character I don't want to see is Mara. I can't stand her, so I hope they skip her.
  6. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    What I enjoyed greatly in X-Wing is that we get to see exactly how good Wedge and Tycho are, there's only really Luke who can exceed them - so there's a quite cool mutual reflection effect that raises all the characters up a level.

    One thing Bantam developed late in its run was the concept that having the Force could be countered, to a specific degree, by someone possessing exceptional skill in that area. Thus, we have Corran taking on Tycho in a simulator in IJ, Corran thinks it'll be easy as he has the Force and Tycho doesn't. As far as Tycho's concerned? Like that matters! Can't recall who actually won, but it was far harder than Corran expected.

    Similarly, X-Wing 1 has Wedge having to make a similar shot to Luke's death star run and he pulls it off.

    Now it seems to be if you don't have the Force - you're stuffed and don't count!
  7. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    Not really the thread for it, but why is that?
    kataja likes this.
  8. jainasky Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2010
    star 1
    Mainly because Luke is my favorite character and she just was not who I would have picked for him. Just not a fan of hers at all, wasn't from her first story. I am sure she has lots, I am not one of them.
  9. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    So none of the subsequent character portraits or development did anything to alter that? I'd agree HTTE isn't particularly great at endearing her to anyone as a character. Certainly she was stuck in the box marked - "must always have edge" - much to her detriment. Nor did Zahn really sell me on the marriage.
  10. jainasky Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2010
    star 1
    Not particularly. I haven't read every book she's in but the ones I did she just seems flat to me or she rubbed me the wrong way. I think people like her because she had an edge to her or snappy comebacks and that's fine. That's why there are all sorts of characters out there so we can pick and choose. I just would rather read about someone else.

    I'd rather read about Luke's adventures or him with his son, or him with Rogue Squadron. That sort of thing.
  11. Auditor Dredd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 4
    well I believe Bakura is not too far away from Endor as the warning drone was sent from the planet in a relative short time. Bakura is in Endor's backyard. As for Luke and his injuries he did learn how to use Force heal for the first time during this book. During the climax he was already walking off the injury after he wretch up the last bug so I don't think the damage was that serious after a quick use of heal.

    Still it was a pretty busy week, I'll grant you. ;)

    I suggest getting the trades if you can,as I prefer to read whole arcs than one issue at time, keeps me invested.

    no argument here, although I means to have some time off before I take another exam again.....I'm all college out I-)

    It's odd though, that even though there are a bunch of big 3 novels there are very few of them that buck the trend in originality( new darksider, new warlord, new death machine, rinse and repeat, split up the main players). Like aside of the Han Solo trilogy and the adventures, we had no books that focus on the character development of Leia or Luke. As for jedi stuff, well Luke certainly seem to have fun when he wasn't racking his brain on bringing back the Jedi Order, see TNR for what I mean.

    I believe so, don't quote me but I think someone mention that over here. I think he makes Luke too "messiah" like than the upright hero if you follow my meaning. I mean JAT had so many religious overtones that it rivaled with the Superman movies. And as you mention he only scratches the surface of Luke's character. It's much the same complaint I bring up with Wolverton.

    ok I can live with that logic :p Stover good, KJA bad. lol, still there's no denying he has one of the best characterizations of Luke in the last 5 years.

    lol, I'm glad I'm not the only one that feels that way. I mean it sounds like a Twilight Zone idea, also it seem convenient for Luke to somehow fall head over heels for the ghost in the machine. I don't think there was a reason given in the book why he was so obsessed with this mysterious jedi woman. Also this question needs an answer, how can you truly fall in love with the soul of an ancient jedi lady when she's taken over the body of one your hottest students ? I mean sure yeh leggy blonde FTW, but morally it's pretty disturbing. I wouldn't mind the new films retconning that nonsense. This is cheap romance I expect from a Twilight novel not EU :p

    well pace yourself it happens in the later pages of TUF. Go finish it already. tsk tsk apprentice [face_not_talking] :p

    more snark please.

    That's my problem, I read a bad romance novel.....but it was being sold as a straight/serious romantic story....now if the book was self-aware enough to make fun of itself it would have made for a funny infinity tale.....not to mention weird.

    perhaps if you see ANH and then read Invincible right after you can sense a little bit of the frustration that some of us are having with the way he handles the material.

    true maybe during a slower time.

    er I thought Han was the best non-force sensitive pilot or does that only go for modified freighters and wookiee co-pilots ? ;)

    too bad neither Red Leader or Wedge were able to make good on that during the Battle of Yavin ;) speaking of which do you know if the missions for the first Rogue Squadron game were canon ?

    To be fair to Luke and Anakin, they are the best jedi pilots the galaxy has to offer. As for non-force sensitives o I dunno, Jagged Fel crushed Alema Rar. Han blasted a good deal of Sith and also killed Palpatine. He also can still fly circles around certain jedi, heck Rogue Squadron has shown how capable the Rogues are on their own with the only reliance being on themselves. I remember Wedge in particular escape imprisonment in Betrayal with sheer wit and guile.

    experience beats potential nearly 9 times out of 10 in the EU, even if the Force is with you.

    There was also Traviss's Revelation in which the Mandos are the best ever ! [face_hypnotized]

    hello jainasky welcome to SOS :) I can understand where you are coming from, as I thought Mara was rather annoying when I first came to EU, but now after reading multiple books over the years I come to appreciate her personality even though she's stubborn as a bantha. I wouldn't expect anything less from anyone being raised by Palpatine.
    Last edited by MasterSkywalker86, Dec 18, 2012
  12. jainasky Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2010
    star 1
    Thanks for welcome :) what book changed your mind the most on her?

    Glad to be in the thread, love to read/discuss Luke with others :)
  13. kataja Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2007
    star 4
    Hello @jainasky and welcome to this thread! :)
    There's a lot of people feeling like you. I have a good friend who hates Mara - actually she hates the EU in general - she just thinks it took the wrong way ever since Heir to the Empire. Funny enough, she only hates the profic Mara Jade - she's actually found out that many fans write a good Mara.

    It wasn't the hottest courtship, thats' for sure :p

    She's written very bad in many books - straightout flat, actually. Personally I like Balance Point - there she fleshes out for the first time. I don't know why others like her, but I do (to put is short) becasue I think she and Luke fit so well together. He reaches into her and softens her from first moment - and she learns to love him for it. But I respect your opinion and won't try to sell her to you ;) Also, I maybe should point out that I knew she'd marry Luke when I first read her, so I had plenty of goodwill towards her :p

    We were just talking how awesome a Luke & Rogues story would be! Did you enjoy Luke and Ben in FOTJ?

    Whoops - that was what I meant. Actually I never buy the single issues - they're impossible to come buy here. Well, almost never...

    Well, TNR is pretty late - in 17 ABY. And as you're sadly correct that we lack character development stories of Luke and Leia (shame, shame, shame on you, Bantam and Del Ray!!!) I've tried to build my own understanding of what Luke's going though all that time. And it seems to me, he's not very happy between 4 - 17 ABY, which is a hell of a long time!! It coudl seem that he finally shakes off his gloom at the end of BFCT and from there, gets back on the bantha.

    You and me both then. And you really hit the nail - Luke becomes an icon - whch means he's somehow stripped of his humanity in these stories. Which I absolutely hate because Luke, to me, is above all a dynamic and approachable character!!! In terms of Luke's story arch, I've started to accept it, though, as DE has been made to that turning point that causes Luke both to understand he has to start producing Jedi and he has to do it now (forcing him to kick aside the misgivigns he's carried around since Bespin). But at the same time Luke's afraid of that task and it could make sence that he'd try to step nto too large shoes (mataphorically speaking), trying to make himself less vulnerable and human just to manage the task. In that perspective, his desperate love for Callista would also make sense, as she'd be a link to he Old Order =her support and approval would be essential to him. And when she'd leave him, he'd be worse off than before he met her - a deroute that culminates and stops in BFCT.

    Also, I think Stover's Mindor story both established and explained the heavy burden Luke would be carrying since Bespin and ROTJ - a similar effort to be more than he is, could be the case in COPL.

    lol see my post above. Would it offer some kind of explanation. But yes, one thing is falling in love with a 'soul' - that's a beautiful though, though I've never understood why some worldliness would make for anything bad. But the moral thing about that body switch is just.... weird. I don't pretend to be morally above anything, but it wasn't served well either.

    Hey, young man!? When did I become your apprentice? :p

    Heard! Heard!!!

    It should have been a comic. Page up and page down of hot women clad in scanty skins. Wanna argue? ;)


    Ups, nearly missed you post., there. Yes, this was great in the Bantams. I loved taht thing about Luke, Wedge and Tycho. Also, I liked it that W& T were these awseome pilots - but they respected Luke as pilot too - not only Jedi. And while I approve of Jedi stories, I don't like it whet the Force is the only thing that counts. It also makes the Jedi half-imbecilles - and makes it possible for a Karen Traviss to concot all that against them.

    This was Zhan's great point in THT - that other stuff than Force counts too. I don't agree with him that you should cut back on the Force, as medicine, though.
    Last edited by kataja, Dec 19, 2012
  14. jainasky Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2010
    star 1
    Thanks for the welcome kataja :)

    I don't think I've read Balance Point but I do have it. I may read it next. I do have Outcast from FoTJ I just haven't started it yet. Working through Shadows of Mindor now. I've been trying to buy one book per paycheck to try and catch up with everything I've missed :)
  15. kataja Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2007
    star 4
    I think many people would say you haven't missed anything. In fact, I think some people would pay to UNREAD some of the EU :p I like it myself, though and what I dont like, I love to rant about, so I'm good. Personally I loved the Luke & Ben FOTJ bits. It was awesome to see Luke so mature and in balance with himself and, not least, being such a good father!

    I really like Kathy Tyers grip on both Luke and Mara - it's obvious that she loves Luke (that shows in both BP and Truce at Bakura + she's said it in an interview) but she also gets a woman's grip on Mara's character - different from the male writers who gives her many or few traits but never really show her from inside, if you know what I mean, always slightly objectifed (idealized). Also, I think she shows to mature people in a well functioning marriage - which is always enjoyable but far too rare.

    How do you like Mindor?
    lukemaraben likes this.
  16. JediMatteus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2008
    star 4
    The whole NJO is worth reading really. only a couple dud books
  17. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    Re: non-Force pilots:

    Two words MS: Baron. Fel. :)

    re: Mara

    Yeah, it was Balance Point that gave Mara a significant boost for me too.
  18. Auditor Dredd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 4
    Glad to have you in the thread. Well oddly enough the 5 Zahn books TTT and HoT, it was after multiple reads mind you. At first glance she comes off as a female Terminator, she can do no wrong and it's irritating how she chastises Luke for his own faults. It's not til you dig deeper that you find out she just as flawed if not more than Luke, her cold demeanor comes with a price of not have anyone close to her. The fact she cries over her ship exploding like it was a fallen comrade demonstrates this.
    Also most of her Force abilities during her earlier years were borrowed by Palpatine's own Force power, once the link was broken after Palps first death she became no more than a fledging in the Force. So while she is competent due to her training you have to remember she had a supplemental aid to her own powers.

    Also if you look into Mara's complaints on Luke's previous mistakes you'll notice it's coming from a personal place. Mara, the character known for being on her own, is subtly telling Luke she wants a relationship with the farm boy. In one example, she was disappointed that he didn't "notice her or gave her special training" during JAT, another was where she acknowledges that instead of Luke going around to save the galaxy that he came for her, and there is also the scene where Mara senses Luke arriving at the planet and decides to make herself presentable to Luke. Basically she noticed Luke distance himself from her due to previous tragedies, and focus on saving the galaxy. It seem like from Mara's POV they were on the start of something but it was halted due to Luke's duties.

    so starting from Mara having such an anger/hatred of Luke(I'll argue that she never truly wanted to kill Luke after meeting him, blame the kill impulse on mental suggestion), she starts to respect his abilities/character, and then a kinship which would have evolve to feelings and love sooner if Luke hadn't distance himself.

    also I enjoy their relationship as it evolves in Union, SQ, DNT, and Betrayal. In a few ways Mara is Lois to Luke's Superman ;)



    I felt we "miss" that chapter where their emotions reach a boiling point.....possibly due to censors ;)

    ditto, I feel the same way. You'll notice how from her POV they started something from TTT on and Mara was disappointed that they didn't continue it. There were reasons why Mara didn't get into any relationships, it seem like she was waiting for Luke which is pretty romantic if I say so myself....ok enough of this mushy stuff :p

    what books do you feel she was OOC ?


    yeah I can't get into sole issues.

    its odd considering how many books the both of them been. Heck have we seen them have some sibling rivalry ?

    o I dunno in Mindor during the first half Luke seems jolly as much as the situation permits :p

    exactly one of the key character traits about Luke is that he is very relatable despite his power.

    the distancing also makes sense when he doesn't really much converse with Mara, I remember the one scene in Dark Saber where Mara is flying Luke around in her new ship and she's showing off. It seem to me that Mara was screaming to Luke to basically notice her. She also had the conversation with Callista in which she tells Callie to take good care of Luke, when asked if she liked Luke Callie sense that Mara indeed has some feelings.

    I suppose that makes much more sense than what I got from reading.

    right....plus its weird :(


    since we got on these boards after the move ;) , and it's Master Skywalker86 for a reason...now off to your reading assignments chop chop! [face_batting]


    Nope but why stop there ? :D .

    Would be interesting to date one of the Dathomiri witches from the singing clan [face_praying]


    I'm in definite agreement about that, there should be caution in using the Force sure but using your abilities to the fullest when helping others is not a bad thing.

    QFT, though I still say Han is better. odd on how Fel is MIA most of the times.
    Last edited by MasterSkywalker86, Dec 19, 2012
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  19. Auditor Dredd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 4
  20. ChildOfWinds Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2001
    star 5
    Life's been busy, so I just have time for a short post today. Hopefully, I catch up over the weekend.

    Kataja:
    And I don't know why it needed to be that way. Even as a Jedi Grand Master in the NJO, Luke was leading squadrons. Luke loves to fly too, so I don't know why he couldn't have been included in at least a few missions as Rogue Leader even after RotJ. There is far more to Luke than the Jedi part of him, and I wish more authors would remember that. Plus, Luke's Jedi abilities should be able to make him even a more effective squadron leader post RotJ.

    I'm not asking for Luke to be confined to X-wings only for a long period of time, but I don't know why there couldn't be at least a few stories of him in that capacity.

    Like Denning's characters do what the plot requires them to do and act the way the plot requires them to act, whether it makes sense for the characters or not. This is particularly true with Luke, in my opinion. Luke's character is often thrown under the bus and made to do things that are totally out of character, or to make mistakes that he made and learned from long before just so some of Denning's desired plots can go forward. :(:mad:

    That's a very astute observation, and very true, I think.

    He is also almost an encyclopedia of SW. He doesn't seem to forget anything that happens in the films or the EU, and he includes many references to them.


    SO true! Especially his seeming inability to truly end a story, and the dark, gritty, bleak direction that he took the SW universe and never brought it back out of that downward spiral.


    EXACTLY! He doesn't seem to know how to write a satisfying, true conclusion to much of anything. I find that really annoying! He also likes to be "cute" by often leaving things somewhat ambiguous. We still don't really know exactly what Abeloth is. At the end of Invincible, it was left somewhat ambiguous whether Jacen returned to the light by saving Alana. Why were the Barabels so paranoid about anyone finding out that they were having young ones? Things like that.








    JediMatteus:
    Sounds good! So he really did believe that Vader couldn't be redeemed... Good thing that Luke believed!


    Hopefully, I'll get to respond to more posts tomorrow!
  21. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    Would Luke have believe Vader could be redeemed if ObiWan had given him the entire truth of everything? I'm quite sceptical, as that knowledge would make it much, much harder to think anything positive of Vader at all.
  22. Nobody145 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 9, 2007
    star 4
    Sometimes ignorance is bliss... and sometimes innocence is very important too. Most importantly, Luke had faith in his father, that there was still something to save. Luke had a special point of view, since of anyone in the galaxy he's the only one Vader actually still cares about, so Luke could sense something there. By that point Obi-wan and Yoda had been through war and death and seen Anakin's fall and never really recovered.

    Various stories over the years have tinkered with the idea of Luke finding out about some of Anakin's... darker moments. The Empire/Rebellion comic series touched on that subject a few times, the Vector crossover part was pretty weak, but I still don't mind the Jabiim arc too much, especially since at least the local resistance leader simply got over blaming Anakin for everything (and while he did abandon that world, it wasn't really his idea either and it really messed him up too), and as we see elsewhere, Vader still hasn't really gotten over it, but then if Anakin could have dealt with his issues in a more mature manner, everyone would have been spared a lot of trouble.

    And DNT brought it up again with all the subtlety of a sledgehammer, but there Luke only saw some of the worst moments... Anakin was very flawed, but he wasn't a complete monster, at least not originally. Too bad Luke rarely gets a complete picture of his father. Most of the old Jedi are dead, and the occasional villain who pops up from that era (another reason I don't like the Clone Wars era, sure, most of the Jedi dying at the end is part of the tragedy, but at least several of the minor/recurring characters get away too, ugh). Partially because there's not much left from the prequel era (it used to be Luke had to go searching far and wide for any Jedi records, now his order has mostly turned into a rehash of the prequel era Jedi Order), but then you also never know when a prequel character will die with TCW randomly killing off heroic characters (and bringing back some characters who really should have stayed dead).

    Threepio had a memory wipe, and I remember back when I was reading through RotS (the novelization, the comic adaptation and then the movie itself) for a scene that would show both droids being memory wiped, but nope, only Threepio. I always hated that, since well, Threepio can't be trusted to keep quiet (he would let something slip sooner or later), but its not like Artoo ever showed that much knowledge of that time period and its very rarely acknowledged. DNT used it horribly only to cause pain and suffering (the typical mood for most major novels), but the Dragonsnakes comic merely had Yoda talking to Artoo as an old friend or at least acquaintance. Well, there's that bit about Artoo supposed to be relaying the whole saga to a shaman of the Whills, but its not like we'll ever actually see that. And then in DNT a few holograms have to be dragged from Artoo kicking and screaming, how about Artoo tell a few happier stories of Anakin Skywalker being heroic? :rolleyes:

    Maybe it was better for Luke to just attempt to redeem without too much knowledge, but then after that it might have been nice for Luke to find out more, old stories or old comrades or something. Since eventually it instead then leads to Luke in Dark Empire pretending to submit to the Emperor to find out more about how and why his father fell (and then his retreat in the the Black Fleet Crisis), but then that would mean Luke has learned from the mistakes of the old Jedi Order... and we can't have that much progress these days, unfortunately.
    Last edited by Nobody145, Dec 21, 2012
    kataja likes this.
  23. JediMatteus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2008
    star 4
    to me it was stupid not telling Luke that Vader was his Father. Unless they wanted to keep him from having compassion for him.
  24. son_of_skywalker03 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 7, 2003
    star 4
    "I can't kill my own father."

    Obi-Wan and Yoda didn't believe there was still good in Vader. They were convinced that Anakin was lost, and that the only way to destroy Vader was for Luke to kill him. I can see why they wouldn't want Luke to know Anakin and Vader were one and the same.
  25. kataja Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2007
    star 4
    =D= Like your take here MS! Mara is a very flawed character - but that's what makes her human. Also I think DE was a huge shock to Luke that also made him more introvert. And as Mara probably expected him to be the 'open one' , this was partly why nothing developed in the start. Also, Mara would have been scared by the change - and repulsed with what he'd done. I think with her backgrund she'd have a hard time accepting what happened in DE - and she wasn't exactly the forgiving type back then. Personally, I've always seen her 'rant' in VOTF as being her ideas of what was wrong rather than what was actually wrong. A sort of "I scold so yu can see I care" thing. And Luke would see through that eventually.

    Kriff the censors! I honestly think we could have seen much much more! I've read some excellent fanfics that fill the gap - but while some were adult, others were perfectly all audience.

    Heh heh - you've already revealed your inner softness - too late to back out now :p
    I wouldn't actually say she 'waited' - she'd be an extremely picky lady. No one would do - and besides she'd think she didn't need anyone anyway. It's only Luke who both can reach in and make her realize that she actually could enjoy a soulmate - and to make her give up her impossible standards.



    JAT was not quite OOC but very shallow and onesided. Same with CotJ and TNR - hte last being clearly the best of the three, though. Salvatore and Luceno write her ok, though all her lines sound a bit odd. But Luceno at least has an idea of what he wants with her and it's a good one too. Stackpole gets her mostly right. Keyes is ok, Cunningham is terrible! Denning is ok, Allston is mostly good. Walter Jon Williams was good but Sean Williams and Shane Dix was just ??? Traviss actually wrote a good Mara but screwed her death.

    more later