Discussion in 'Literature' started by Jedi Ben, Mar 22, 2008.
And Episode VII may break my skills, I suppose
I thought the whole thing was silly, I don't think Luke should ever have learned the full details of what his father had done, and especially not then and not in that way. And you're right: IF Luke * had* to see those tapes, then at least we should have seen Luke thinking about them and should have gotten "into his head" as he reflected on them. Without that, as you pointed out, there was really no reason to bring it up in the first place.
I always felt that Yoda and Obi-wan were lucky that their lies didn't send Luke over the edge to the dark side to join his father. After all, if Luke couldn't even trust his mentors and Jedi instructors to be honest with him about that, he might have thought , "What else might they have lied to me about?" It could have sent him into a dark spiral that might have resulted in Luke joining Vader and the Emperor. They were fortunate that Luke had great strength of character and was so firmly in the Light that he would rather have died than join the Dark side.
I agree. Luke deserved to know the truth.
Well, at least MARA brings up Luke's flaws! I don't know that I would say that Luke brings up Mara's flaws... But I think he manages to help smooth those flaws out without rubbing them in her face...
I'm not sure, JM. Maybe our thread comic expert can answer that? Jedi Ben, Do you know if there is such a story in one of the comic books?
I agree. I would like to read a story where Luke meets his friends after he has become a Jedi and a hero. There is that story where he meets Tank, but they meet as enemies and Luke isn't a Jedi yet.
They never did really conclude that story.
As Aunt Beru said, "Luke's not a farmer, Owen".
Of course! it's another Skywalker trait!
Whatever it was supposed to be, it failed for me... After searching for Callista for a whole book, Luke at least deserved to actually have a one-on-one talk with Callista. They needed to bring closure to their relationship if nothing else.
NO! You are not the only one! I feel the same way.
It also annoys me in I, Jedi, where Luke is easily defeated by Corran Horn supposedly because Luke wasn't concentrating and because he wasn't used to "rough and tumble". Excuse me, but I'm sure Luke would have had the Alliance training and "boot camp" that you talk about. Plus, growing up on Tatooine wasn't exactly like growing up in a palace either. I'm sure he had to attend some kind of survival school to survive on that difficult world. Notice Luke was packing a pretty serious weapon when he went out after Artoo. And then, there was Luke's training on Dagobah, which was no picnic either. Luke is a trained soldier and a trained Jedi and has had many opportunities to learn military and physical fighting skills. He's not a clueless wimp!
Yes, it was VERY out of character for Luke. And it happened WAY too fast too!
Yes, and I guess I don't understand why Luke couldn't have met Callista as a living, breathing person of his own age anyway? Why did she have to be a spirit in a computer? It was just way too weird and disturbing for me. How can anyone fall in love with a voice in a computer????
Yes, you do! By the way, the reason that I rarely "like" anyone's post is that I copy all of the posts into another program, so I'm not really "online" and able to hit the "like" button most of the time when I read and respond to posts.
I can definitely understand that! I certainly never "connected" with Cade or liked him.
Yes, but Leia and Luke suffered a lot of loses and went through horrible experiences too and they didn't become selfish jerks!
Well, at least he listened to Luke ONCE in his life!
It was in the first book of the Black Fleet Crisis where Luke built his own hermitage and "got away from the galaxy".
More another time....
What I didn't like was Cade's personality which bothers me since I wanted to have a Skywalker character that kept me invested.I can definitely understand that! I certainly never "connected" with Cade or liked him.
I could understand that through Cade's experiences he went through a great deal of "scarring", losing his father, friends, and being abandoned in space would affect his character a great dealYes, but Leia and Luke suffered a lot of loses and went through horrible experiences too and they didn't become selfish jerks!
Cade was going to commit suicide after killing Krayt in War, Luke told him not to. I know there is a bit more detail to it but Luke DID influence him at that point and saved his life for it.Well, at least he listened to Luke ONCE in his life!
1. After around Legacy #35, an awful lot of readers were cheesed off with Cade! Yet would a quick, simply resolution have worked given what was known of Cade? It takes time for a broken shell of a man to heal, it certainly took Cade a long time but it is in his counsel to Cade we see Luke exhibiting some of his best traits - patience, understanding and persistence. It was this quite lethal cocktail that undid Sidious' nigh-perfect Endor trap and managed to bring someone as far gone as Vader back into the light. Compared to that, Cade's an easy case for Luke. Luke knows Cade will get it, that he'll stumble and fall a lot but in the end? Yeah, he'll make it.
2. Arguably the point - a personality like Luke is RARE!
3. I'd class it as Cade finally accepting the Jedi notion of self-sacrifice rather than suicide, as he saw it as the only way to stop Krayt once and for all. It was Luke that showed him there were other options available to him.
EDIT: Nope, don't know of any comic that's done that.
Yes, the Mouse Star is presently under construction! When completed, your sophisticated defences will be no match for its continuity obliterating superlaser!
well the story of Luke and biggs at the camp where Anakin slaughtered the Tuskens IS in the Luke Skywalker bio novel. Must have been featured somewhere.
Not necessarily - could easily be original content so to speak.
nice, what did you do for your time off ? Ok so it's like I originally thought. Bakura and Endor are relatively close then. Retcon not needed
well he and Shira would have gotten into a relationship if the Force didn't guide his hands into shooting her Then again getting into relationships with bad girls is bad for the health For Teneniel I agree, I dunno what was the deal with Jem....perhaps spur of the moment and maybe the relationship was just developing similar to Gariel and then she dies.
ah thanks, that is a great scene. Although what did Luke do the night before for Mara ?
perhaps Denning meant she only saw herself as a tool, competent and efficient but not much more than that. Luke saw her as a person,
haha, a decade worth of DE debates.
actually I wasn't hoping for a quick resolution but seeing some positive attributes show up here and there would have gone a long way in redeeming a character for me. There is a way to make smugglers and pirates enjoyable, see Firefly.
yes, now I'm curious if where we will see Cade next, will he become a jedi again ? Probably an unorthodox jedi but a jedi nonetheless.
nice pic if the Mouse Star allows Joss Whedon at the helm or at least to observe "this new technological terror" I would appreciate Disney's purchase that much more.
true but then again their tutelage is like the concept of parents raising their children, do you give them all the facts from day one (mature topics like life, death, puberty, sex, where do babies come from, religion/atheism, war, etc) or do you work on that gradually ? Clearly Obi-wan and Yoda were on the way to telling Luke but events quickly got out of hand. Being told his father was a mass murderer and he would have to kill him is not "the best way" to breaking the ice to your new apprentice
I would too....make it so.
that and defeating Sidious's
or lets agree that their time together never existed
I would think facing Vader twice would be the ideal for a "rough and tumble" fight.
lol I dunno
I understand, no worries
Like Ben said Luke and Leia are one in a million
twice, he also went to save the jedi he turn in for the bounty after Luke talk to him.
I will admit that I'm fuzzy on this comic book, but I don't know that I would say that anything at all happened between Luke and Jem. They didn't even know one another for very long at all... However, I think Jem did save Luke's life, didn't she?
Can you refresh my memory with an example of one of the faults on Mara's list, please?
Again, can you give an example of this?
Do you like your new present? Is it useful? Does it have good Luke entries?
My maternal grandparents came to the US from Austria as children, and it was their tradition to open gifts on Christmas Eve too. So except for the years when my brothers and I still believed in Santa Claus, we too have always opened gifts either on Christmas Eve or right after Midnight Mass.
I deeply, dearly, hope they can manage to hold on to this in the ST!
Nice summation, K! I guess I really should pull that book out again and do a reread....BUT, I still need to finish CoO first.....
I remember this passage. Very cute! And very Luke. And I liked what Mara was thinking about Luke too: " To everyone else on Eclipse, he might be the enigmatic Jedi Master and last best hope for an imperiled galaxy, but to her he was the gentle husband who always knew what to say, the unassuming moisture farmer who had seen value in her."
Nicely said! This was probably the very best passage ever that Denning wrote about Luke and Mara.
That's another great thing about teaching: I get two weeks off at Christmas/New Year's!
But he could have done it in so many ways that wouldn't have made Luke look like such an idiot. As just one idea, he could have had Luke go WITH Anakin and some others. Or, Anakin could have died in a totally different battle. Luke could have killed the voxyn queen. No, I still blame Denning. He threw Luke under the bus and made him look bad.
And just because the Solo kids and the other young Jedi knights were thrown into the war doesn't mean that they couldn't have been working WiTH Luke and some of the older Jedi in Master/apprentice pairings instead of having the kids do these major things alone. That way, it wouldn't have made Luke and the other adults look so useless and incompetent.
I'm afraid this time will be different, Sinny. Denning himself made some comments in an interview in which he basically said something to the effect that Luke had suffered an injury in which Abeloth had taken away some of Luke's Force essence. He also said that he felt that this should continue to be used as a part of Luke's story arc. Perhaps if another author would have been assigned to write the book that takes place right after Apocalypse, that author might have ignored the injury. But since Denning himself will write the next book, I just don't see who he could possibly contradict himself. So, I'm afraid that we *will* get a permanently injured Luke in Apocalypse.
And since the injury is an injury to Luke's Force essence rather than a physical one, I truly fear that Luke won't be as powerful anymore, and that he won't be able to achieve any amazing Force feats anymore.
I wasn't asking that every loose end be tied up or that every villain be defeated. After all, it's almost impossible for Luke's small Jedi Order to possibly get rid of two groups of thousands of Sith. HOWEVER, Abeloth, who was the major villain of FotJ SHOULD have been permanently disposed of, in my opinion, especially since they defeated her so many times before only for her to return yet again. So how was the "ending" of this nine book (or even 18 book) series any different from the "ending" of some of the other books in this series? I feel there should be a definite ending and a permanent resolution of a storyline when the reader is told that this book is the CONCLUSION to a long series. I found it VERY unsatisfying to have nothing truly resolved. This was not supposed to be a continuing serial... This book was supposed to give us the resolution to the story.
Not even in the same league, in my opinion. The NJO had a true resolution of the most important aspect of the series: the war between the YV and the galaxy. The war ended in TUF and the YV were completely defeated and sent packing out of the galaxy on Zonoma Sekot. Raynar Thul and the two dark Jedi were only very minor characters in a small part of the whole NJO story. It's one thing to leave some small storylines open for future use; it's quite another to leave everything completely unsettled and unresolved, as was the case with Apocalypse.
Look at the Thrawn duology. Zahn brought things to a very satisfying conclusion, with the Empire and the NR signing a treaty, and with Luke and Mara having resolved their personal differences and engaged to be married. Yet, through Luke and Mara's shared vision, as well as the introduction of the Unknown Regions, Zahn set up some very promising and varied ideas for future stories while tying up most of the loose ends in his own duology. That's satisfying! As I said, when I purchase a book or a series of books, I *do* expect to get a true ending as well as a beginning and a middle.
But almost all of them involve Sith, Sith, and MORE SITH. That doesn't give us much possible story variety, unlike Zahn's offerings at the end of VotF. Too bad authors wasted those opportunities; those story "gifts" that Zahn presented.
I didn't think so.... Sadly, she still exists too, which means that other stories with her will be as repetitive as some of the books in the FotJ series. How many times did the characters think they had "killed" her in that series? Luke himself thought he had killed her three times.... He was very disappointed (like me!) to find out at the end of Apocalypse that she was STILL NOT dead.
I'm glad you enjoyed it, JM!
And I no longer have any confidence in Denning. He keeps adding things here and there that come out of nowhere. I've already given him lots of opportunities to show me that he can effectively tie up most of the important loose ends in a story, and after the 21 books from TJK to Apocalypse, he absolutely hasn't shown that he can.
I completely agree!
Hi, R! Good to "see" you! I actually agree with you about this. LotF went too far in getting rid of all of the villains. I especially think that Jacen/Caedus should have been allowed to live and be an on-going villain in that GFFA and an ongoing nemesis for Luke.
However, FotJ went way too far in the opposite direction, basically basically allowing ALL of the main villains to survive.
I agree! And that would have given FotJ some definite closure and would have given the readers some satisfaction while still allowing for future story arcs.
More another time!
But how DO you kill a Force Entity? Especially one who is that powerful? Luke has now learned of the 'Mortis Dagger', but still does not know if it will be effective.
Um, that was just me, trying to find the correct english wording, nothing deeper
Heh, liked you example. But yet, that's a problem - a general problem that series of this kind constantly face. But while I tink you need to keep constant focus on stuff like that, I don't think it will even be truly avoided - but I think it has becme better since the Bantam days, simply becasue we know have a continuity and timeline.And Chee, of course
Ah! I see - and much sympathise with his project!
I can accept Corran would eventually be better than Luke in hand-to-hand (unless Luke used the Force) - but not that Luke would be straighout bad.
And as I read Mindor, it stroke me how in character Stover managed to keep Luke's almost tightlipped stress. He was like a tired but strikt school teacher when he told Nick 'how things would be' or forced Aeona and Han to make peace (and indeed they acted like kids too!). Also, it seems very much what a Jedi's job would be much of the time - and if Luke can manage it already in 5 ABY (which seems beleiveable, considering ROTJ) - then why not in 11 ABY? Ok, DE happened, but it's not like his entire character changed. Argggh - maybe we need that retocon after all Not an actual events-retcon - but a why-and-how-things-happened-as-they-did-retcon
I love your take on that! Very, very true! Luke would be a pro in saving souls by the time after his death.
That must be the best statement of the year on this thread Well delivered on the treshold of the new year.
Apart from this and that á la carte , plus re-reading Mindor I've been trying to move on with second part of my full-length fanfic. Could flow better, though...
Oh, I love when the Force is entyereing people's love life - particularly the Skywalkers' Still, I'm not so sure - he was her superior officer, after all - and we know how rule-obeying Luke is. Well - in that kind of stuff anyway. As soon as it's something taht concerns his friends safety or the galaxy he doesn't care a damn, of course.
Master... I'm sure you can find that part in a fanfic - but make sure to search in the adult section. You are over 18, right?
Yes, that would make sense. It would even give an interesting and sympathetic add to Mara's character
Definitely a good point
She and Leia did, yes. Luke saved her too when they met - she was bound to a tree of all clichées But both in the comic and the Radio Drama he calls her "very special to me" .
Ah. I see And yes, I like it. No Luke entries - but an awful lot of good pics, both Luke and Mara. It's not a book you read through, of course - but it's like and encyclopedia taht you can return to again and again. Wchih I, in writing fanfic, definitely do.
And still looking forward to hear what you think!
Ah, I dunno - I really like that scene in TJK too
I believe that Luke should be able to get rid of at least one of the Sith groups out there, as long as he finds Kesh, or Krayt slips up. I expect Krayt will launch a coup of the Tribe if only to ensure Luke associates them with him. He'll spin some spiel about how he's Lumiya's true Sith apprentice and Luke will run him through, and Krayt will eight decades licking his wounds while Luke decides that trusting a Sith is a bad idea and orders construction of the Hidden Jedi Temple.
I am loving the quality of Luke's Jedi to the Tribe, though.
Luke, Jaina, Corran and Ben confront twenty Sith; Valin and Jysella ambush them and twenty Sith die.
Luke, Jaina and Corran confront Abeloth and twelve Sith. Abeloth runs and Sith die.
In total, six hundred Jedi attack six thousand Sith, with a few battalions of GA soldiers to assist... six thousand Sith die, mostly pointlessly, and Jedi casualties are recorded as ten Knights in the Temple initially, and fifteen Knights while hunting the Sith on Coruscant... though 27 younglings are killed at Ossus
Good ratios overall, though. Luke should be proud of what he has achieved.
Well, Mara and Luke clash three times in VOTF. Like so:
Ch. 10, p. 146ff
· she chides him for trying to everything himself (he agrees easily)
· "his Academy" (he basically ignores it)
· ignoring him for Kyp Durron "or one of the other kids" (he winces)
· setting the Academy at Yavin - and stay after the mess with Exar Kuhn was sorted out (he admits it without shame)
Ch. 15, p. 217-225
· can't do it all (he asks her to drop it - and she agrees with the last x that it's not the same as actually rely on other people)
· not shoulder other people's mistakes
· not moving the Academy even after realizing the DS was at loose
· not stopping Kyp Durron
· not protecting Leia's children against kidnapping even though it has happened before
· calling himself a Jedi Master after only ten years on the job(here Luke agrees that she's absolutely right in what she's said and feels bad)
· (more gently) that life as Jedi Master has been more foggier than he'd expected it to be
· arrogance on Byss
· DS has colored everything he did ever since
· not thinking but trying to react to save everyone and do everything
· almost destroying himself in the process
· to tap into the Force for raw power, thus missing the subtleties and the guidance it gives
· not interested in listening to (her) warnings in JAT
Ch. 26, p. 405f
· lack of commitment with other women (Callista, Gaeriel +) (Luke angry - Mara apologizes)
Luke is embarrassed for his sudden and anger and says that what happened to them was probably his fault, maybe even mostly his fault - stays shamefaced for a long time. Also, there is at least two places where Luke reflects on his DS involvement (one earlier, where Mara's in a healing trance and he thinks that his relationships with Callista and Gaeriel were desatroyed by his DS-involvement. (262f)
There's also a moment when he reflects on Mara and her fresh Force-powers, that (?) there's something he shouldn't do but she could (?)
Anyway, my previous point was that Luke mainly feels bad about the DS stuff - not the things he's already faced (those in ch 10). But as I re-read, I realize that Mara's long list of his shortcomings in ch 15 also makes him cringe. What he returns to, however, is the DS involvement
Yes - it's one of the clear benefits. At my work, midwinter is definitely the calmest too.
Oh, we agree on that. All I'm saying is taht it was ageneral NJ problem, not specificlaly SBS, though it gets enlightened by Anakin's death
Child, honestly- the space between those two sentences of yours, is just HUGE!!! "Not as powerful" - and "won't be able to achieve any amazing Force feats anymore" - and you're talking about Luke Skywalker - probably the most powerful Jedi ever + other resrourcefulness. No matter power-level, I think Luke will continue to pull amazign Force-feats until he draws his last breath!
Hmm, is this true now. Mindor also had a Darksider as villain - and ti was most refreshing. Moreover - he didn't even die - as far as we know - Cronal is still out there somewhere...Unsatisfying ending?
But most plots of DNT and LOTF are brought to a conclusive end by the time of Apocalypse...So he does bring things to and ending - just not necessary in the present book series.
Well, you gotta admit it's hard for the writers and editors to navigate in that field: not too much of this, not too much of that - more of this not of that, no, more of that...
There's actually a new interview with Denning where he speaks exactly about writing and fans: http://fangirlblog.com/interviews/troy-denning-part-one/
This is my feelings exactly. I usually don't like gloating (at least that's what I try to tell myself ) - but the way the Kesh were amusing or minor to Luke from scene one was just hilarious - and then comes all Luke's Jedi and wipe the floor with the fiercest warriors of the Tribe The more I chew on that - the more this stands out as the best Luke feat. Ever!!! Also because the way Luke and his Jedi are superior is just so low-voiced and tempered. To me it could be summarized it Lukes reply to Lord Talon, when the latter muses aloud how much he looks forward to kill Him. Luke replies: "Everyone needs a dream, Lord Talon."
So I must agree - I don't see HOW the Keshiri Sith - now trembling in their destroyed world - can put up one bit more reistance than the occational author decides they need to have in order to create at least some challenge. Their numbers can be a challenge of course - but better a slow steam of daring Lost Tibe Sith ( most of them would be too scared to move for some time, at least) than more failed apprentices or stumbling Skywalker liners. And if a chance of villains is needed - the Sith can just stay tembling on Kesh for a number of novels.
As for Krayt - yes, he'd make a false trail for Luke to follow - and being associated with the Kesh would definitely seem to be a good move.
I can agree with that at that point in his career, Luke didn't have much hand to hand fighting sans the Force....as far as I know. Now I would think he has that more enough experience.
a la carte ? que eso(what does that mean ?) Yeah I think I owe myself a reread of all my EU books....first I have to finish DE again then continue with SOTE, Mindor, DE, SotP, VotF, SQ, Invasion, TUF, and TJK.
I think I only need TTT to round out my collection.
Hey you can look at the scene in DFR where Luke is wondering why he has to save Mara's life as the Force guiding him into saving his future wife. I think the Alliance would have made some exceptions if the Hero of Yavin aka the Commander fell in love with of the recruits But yeah Luke will follow the rules til the galaxy or his friends are in danger.
ah ha, I thought that's what she meant by that line.....I just needed more context See it's scenes like that could have improve VotF a long way.
I think aside of current complaints, Denning can do a good Luke and Mara relationship. The scene in TJK just comes to mind
I have a few of them
what book are you two discussing about ?
haha same here.
I think Luke will be fully recovered(see Krayt evidence).....also due to the arrival of new movies . But the current question is will Del-Rey be the same publisher for SW books after Disney's purchase. Dark Horse has the license til the end of their current series and then Marvel(Disney owned) will take over. I dunno what exactly means but I would kill for a Mark Waid Luke Skywalker series
as for books I dunno, I'm still hopeful for Crucible but it'll be a borrowed book first
But the point was exactly that he should have some military training since he'd joined the Alliance! Not at excessive as a Cor Sec agent, but enough not to be a rookie. Also, in the Marvels he can very well defend himself.
It means "from the menu" - here used as items selected separately rather than from a list of preset multi-course meals at set prices. I.e. I've been doing what I liked rather than following a preset plan.
You definitely owe yourself that. Because you're worth it!
Scenes like that would improve ANY book At least any book with Luke in it. Or you want Mara? Ok, lets say with Luke and Mara in it!
Great minds think alike
Oh, you absolutely do...Master
Essential Reader's Companion
I'm warily hopeful too. Always warily nowadays, but still hopeful. But I will buy it the moment it arrives - I was so close to buy Scoundrels the other day, stod with it in my hand - but there's not enough Luke in it
I would expect some type of basic training and perhaps with Yoda he establish some hand to hand training off panel but nothing to the extent of Mara's or Corran. I can see this as Luke caught unaware/not concentrating. Admittedly when Luke uses the Force to fight with just fists he could wreck both of them as we see him take down Guri the HRD assassin droid, who was notorious of killing people with nothing but her fists.
ah I gotcha
haha, well I been reading anything other EU. I finish reading some Superman trades(I still can take it or leave it with that franchise), I'm on book four of Game of Thrones aka A Song of Fire and Ice, and I been reading Hurry Down Sunshine. I think I need to go back to my roots with some of my favorite EU books and some Captain America trades.
Of course I want Mara I agree any book would be improve by these scenes....I wonder why SQ had a lack of them. Zahn needs to fix that.
there is a reason you are my apprentice
flattery will get you nowhere you still have to finish TUF
exactly what is it about ?
haha, yeah impulse buys are never a good decision....most of the time. Still maybe Crucible will be pretty good with the big 4, Denning did some ok characterizations in Apocalyspe.
I don't think it can be forgotten, because the person who wrote the injury and confirmed that it should be part of Luke's story arc from now on, is also the next author who will be writing Luke. I can't imagine that he would forget what he wrote in his own previous book.
Definitely NOT me! I haven't been "yapping" about wanting more stories about Sith! What authors SHOULD have clapped their hands about were all of the many and varied story threads that Timothy Zahn set up at the end of VotF. Sadly, most of them were ignored. What Denning has left for the future at the end of Apocalypse all involves Sith and Abeloth, and, in my opinion, we've had far too much of both already.
He also has the annoying habit of "retconning" his own stories by changing what he wrote in a previous book. For example, in LotF, Jacen supposedly became a Sith to prevent Luke from dying. Then in FotJ, Denning tells us that Jacen became a Sith to prevent the vision of Alana with the dark man on the Throne. And there was never any hint that the dark man was Krayt during LotF. He just decided to have it be Krayt in FotJ. And then there was Abeloth.... Denning had no idea who or what she was when he first wrote her. Then at the last minute, he decided to connect her to Mortis in a Clone Wars cartoon.... And I don't even watch that cartoon. It's EXTREMELY annoying! I'm not at all impressed with that kind of "on the fly" writing... especially in multiple multi-book story arcs!
Actually, it's pretty easy really: Everything in balance and moderation. Have one (or one group) die to give a satisfying victory to the heroes and to bring the story to a definite conclusion, but save another (or others) for future stories. It's the kill all or none of the villains that makes no sense and leads to problems and dissatisfaction.
I like fun "family" or character stories like that. And yes, I enjoyed what you wrote below and completely agree:
Yep! Mara would have been very upset if she had lost Luke's gift.
Which reminds me, I wonder what happened to Luke's old lightsaber and where it is now?
That's what they should have done. If it takes a dagger to kill Abeloth, then they should have spent part of FotJ locating that dagger so they could permanently end Abeloth in Apocalypse. Instead of having Luke fight Abeloth and then have her flee three times, Luke should have faced her once and then they could have spent some page time dealing with finding the dagger. There were many duplicate plots in FotJ which were unnecessary. How many times did we need to see more Jedi kids going nuts, for example? Instead of so much of that, they could have given us something different: The search for the dagger. Then they would have had some variety in FotJ, AND they could have given us a true and satisfying conclusion to FotJ with Abeloth's death.
That's EXACTLY the way I see Denning, JB. It's like the Emperor's New Clothes. There isn't anything of substance there.
But why give Luke an injury which is so bad that it may profoundly change who he is and what he can do in the first place?
Sinny does indeed have a gift in this. While I don't always agree with his creative and impressive explanations, I do agree that he is quite ingenious.
Perhaps not, but it would have helped if Cade hadn't been written as such a selfish, irresponsible, drug-addicted jerk in the first place. I was particularly annoyed because Cade was Luke's LAST and ONLY descendant after the deaths of Kol and Nat. Luke deserved to have at least one good and decent descendant. Instead, he only got the truly unlikeable Cade.
Nicely put about Luke's traits. Sadly though, Cade pretty much just ignored and mocked and disrespected Luke most of the time. It was actually kind of heartbreaking to see how Cade treated Luke like dirt.
Maybe so, but couldn't we have gotten something maybe a bit more between the two extremes???? There's a HUGE abyss between Luke's personality and Cade's. Why couldn't Cade have at least a few redeeming qualities. The fact that he was almost universally disliked by the fans seems to show that he wasn't as well-conceived as he could have been. The main protagonist shouldn't be so detested. It makes it far too hard to identify with him or to care about him.
Totally random, but I think Cade's sister should have been revealed to be Kol's daughter. At least then there would have been one decent Skywalker descendant.
Very, very clever, JB!!!! I laughed outloud when I saw and read that! Thanks for that!
Except that Jem died a lot sooner than Gaeriel did, almost as soon as the "relationship", (if you could even call it that!) began.
Possibly! And one who could be loved by someone else too.
And likeable! Yes, I completely agree. It would have been nice to see some positive traits and qualities in Cade; something that would make the reader care about him instead of just feel disgust and annoyance towards him.
To me, it didn't seem likely at the end of Legacy: War. It seemed as though there would be no more Skywalker Jedi.
I'm not sure that I agree that it's "clear" that obi-wan and Yoda were planning to tell Luke about his father. While you're right that the news that his father was a mass murderer would have been difficult for Luke to hear, I still feel that he deserved to know the truth. Even if they WERE going to give Luke the bad news sometime in the future when they felt he was "ready" (WHEN is anyone "ready for that kind of news anyway?) , they certainly should have "come clean" and told him when it was obvious that Luke *WAS* going to go to Bespin whether they liked it or not . It was information that he needed to know, and the fact that he didn't have that information going into that duel with Vader, put Luke at a disadvantage because Vader was able to thoroughly shock Luke when *he* revealed the truth.
LOL! Even better!
Well, ... TWO in a million actually.
But it took him so long to make up his mind that the Jedi ended up dying anyway, if I remember correctly.
Why even create a character like that in the first place? It sets the characters up for failure.
If they didn't know how to permanently get rid of this character, she shouldn't even have been utilized, in my opinion. What's the point? If the heroes can't possibly win, the story is going to be unsatisfying to the reader.... as FotJ was for me.
And I say that if the Mortis Dagger could have solved the problem, then finding it should have been one of the plots of the story so that the heroes COULD permanently destroy this ridiculous villain and we readers wouldn't have to worry about likely suffering through other books about her in the future.
Exactly! That scene in I, Jedi was actually embarrassing to read. I felt sorry for Luke because he appeared so weak and wimpy and "needy".
I agree with you!
Well, when someone saves your life, they would be rather special, don't you think?
This book definitely wins the prize for the book that took me the longest to finish reading!
I would LOVE to see this happen! Unfortunately, I doubt that we'll see Luke starting the Hidden Jedi Temple. We'll probably be told that K'Kruhk planned and executed the whole thing. Sheesh! I HATE that character!
They do seem far superior. Then again, Luke's Jedi have spent decades battling all sorts of evil while the Lost Sith were marooned on Kesh and didn't have the same opportunities to gain experience.
Was it really that many?
Unfortunately, there are still many thousands left.
Luke already learned both in DE and in the Black Fleet Crisis that he couldn't do everything himself. So why Zahn felt Luke needed to learn this lesson again, escapes me.
Why should Luke be ashamed of keeping that Academy at Yavin??? Luke didn't know the spirit of an ancient Jedi was there when he started the Academy. Once Kun was gone, there was no reason to leave. It was the perfect place for the Academy. There were useful facilities; there was lots of life on that world; it wasn't heavily populated; and there was plenty of space.
That was a little hard to do seeing as how Luke was in a coma by the time he found out how far gone he was!
Luke certainly tried! He even had them hidden on a special world for a time.
I don't think he should have felt bad. He was certainly the closest thing there was to a Jedi Master, and a master is also a teacher. Luke IS a Jedi teacher.
I don't really agree with this, and I don't agree that everything Luke did for the ten years between DE and VotF was tainted by darkness.
I don't see anything wrong with Luke or any Jedi tapping into the Force in order to use it. When Luke asked if the Force guided a Jedi's actions, Obi-wan said that it did, but it also "obeys your commands". So both are useful and acceptable. Now maybe Mara could have told Luke that he could possibly have used more balance between actively using the FOrce and passively listening to it, but she shouldn't have hinted that it was wrong to actively tap into it.
It was more the other way around. Luke would have committed to them, but they turned him down. They are the ones who hurt him.
Nope! Not at all!
Again, I totally disagree!
Of which there was practically none. Luke was an undercover agent on Byss, not a Sith lord!
But thanks for posting all of those examples! I only meant for you to mention one or two to refresh my forgetful brain! It's been SO long since I read the Thrawn Duology! And when has read so much pro fic (and I used to read a LOT of fan fic), things do tend to get a bit muddy after a while as to what goes where!
To some degree it was an NJO problem, yes, but I think that SbS it to a whole new level with the adults looking truly incompetent and the younger generation looking like the mature, heroic, resourceful, useful ones.
Even if he can still do some amazing things now and then, I don't want him to become less than he was. That's just doing to Luke the same thing that was done to Anakin, and I'm not pleased about that at all. We really never saw Luke functioning at his full potential yet, so I don't want to see him lose that potential so that he will NEVER reach it.
It was a satisfying ending because they were able to resolve the problem that was threatening them, and they were able to help those melt creatures (whatever they were actually called) too. Plus, Luke sort of "redeemed" that guy he was with on the asteroid.
I can't really say that I agree that he does bring things to an ending. He tends to change things and then push them into a new direction instead.
I think balance is key.
More another time...
That's EXACTLY the way I see Denning, JB. It's like the Emperor's New Clothes. There isn't anything of substance there.
At the same time, the character can and should be written in such a way as to recognise the injury without unduly disempowering them. Not easy to pull off but that's why SW EU employs pro writers with an established track record, they should be able to do this.But why give Luke an injury which is so bad that it may profoundly change who he is and what he can do in the first place?
Sinny has a rare ability to take the most infuriatingly illogical, out-of-left-field developments, general craziness and whatever other wackiness DR come up with and somehow render order out of the chaos! For instance, it's a running in-joke between us that Apocalypse would break his skills - it didn't and I'm now wondering what will!Sinny does indeed have a gift in this. While I don't always agree with his creative and impressive explanations, I do agree that he is quite ingenious.
1. After around Legacy #35, an awful lot of readers were cheesed off with Cade! Yet would a quick, simply resolution have worked given what was known of Cade?Perhaps not, but it would have helped if Cade hadn't been written as such a selfish, irresponsible, drug-addicted jerk in the first place. I was particularly annoyed because Cade was Luke's LAST and ONLY descendant after the deaths of Kol and Nat. Luke deserved to have at least one good and decent descendant. Instead, he only got the truly unlikeable Cade.
it is in his counsel to Cade we see Luke exhibiting some of his best traits - patience, understanding and persistence. It was this quite lethal cocktail that undid Sidious' nigh-perfect Endor trap and managed to bring someone as far gone as Vader back into the light.Nicely put about Luke's traits. Sadly though, Cade pretty much just ignored and mocked and disrespected Luke most of the time. It was actually kind of heartbreaking to see how Cade treated Luke like dirt.
2. Arguably the point - a personality like Luke is RARE!Maybe so, but couldn't we have gotten something maybe a bit more between the two extremes???? There's a HUGE abyss between Luke's personality and Cade's. Why couldn't Cade have at least a few redeeming qualities. The fact that he was almost universally disliked by the fans seems to show that he wasn't as well-conceived as he could have been. The main protagonist shouldn't be so detested. It makes it far too hard to identify with him or to care about him.
Totally random, but I think Cade's sister should have been revealed to be Kol's daughter. At least then there would have been one decent Skywalker descendant.
Yes, the Mouse Star is presently under construction! When completed, your sophisticated defences will be no match for its continuity obliterating superlaser!Very, very clever, JB!!!! I laughed outloud when I saw and read that! Thanks for that!
Cade did have redeeming qualities - for one he couldn't actually leave things alone, Hosk's fate for instance, and then there's Krayt. If Cade really wanted to disappear, he could have but didn't, why? Chances are Cade wouldn't be able to tell you why because it's only at the very end of Legacy Cade really, finally, knows himself. Luke comes to that same moment far earlier on the Death Star 2 and his surviving that ordeal coupled with that self-knowledge does guide him very effectively.
Cade lacks this and, in one respect, his arc in Legacy is a search for it, along with putting himself back together - it is not an easy process. I'd say a lot of people saw Cade's potential and wanted him to tap and his relapses exasperated readers greatly. Yet one way to look at it is this: Why does Luke bother? One answer is Luke'd help anyone, but he can't do everything, so why select Cade? What does Luke see in his descendant? The answer is that same positive potential.
One of the reasons I like Legacy as much as I do is it taps a very prominent aspect of the time and one that's been around for at least a decade, it predates the 2001 attacks, but only after that time did it really ascend. And it is? That there is no good, moral way to do things and win. You must engage with the dark side, you must do bad things in order to do some good, moral principles do not count, power and winning is all. Cade's arc in Legacy is a slow but steady, and finally, complete rejection of all this. It might be said Fel's path mirrors Cade, as though he has self-knowledge and skills Cade lacks, still Fel damns himself, where Cade refuses to.
At the end, Cade has turned away from it all and does have that self-knowledge he has been seeking. With that he has become the person Nat, Kol and Luke saw that he could be. What happens next? Unknown but I'm quite certain it won't involve death sticks!
Switching tack, an injury for a character can be interesting if handled right - one case of correction is the NJO ebook Recovery that has Leia recovering from her ordeal in Balance Point, though that is a temporary state for her. One of my favourite Marvel characters is Cable, in large part due to the condition he has - a virus that would take him over unless he expends a large amount of his abilities keeping it in check. Doing that places the focus on his character and outlook and not power, which shouldn't be the sole evaluation point in any case. Like Cable, I don't see any injury or impairment stopping Luke from doing what he wishes to, it may be harder for him but he's not going to care about that.
I really liked that! I don't know if it was already planned at that point that Luke would marry Mara eventually, but it certainly works so well now that we know that they did get together.
Yep! Mara once said that Luke always kept up with what he needed to do to keep his pilot status current and legal, even though Luke was so good, he likely wouldn't have needed to do that.
I think that may have been a lucky exception. As you can tell, I don't have all that much confidence in him.
Krayt may not have been injured as badly as Luke was, and Krayt had many decades of stasis and healers to help him. I guess what really worries me is that Denning is going to write the next book. How can he ignore what he wrote in Apocalypse and his own comments in an interview???
But if everything is over-written due to the arrival of the new films, then, yes, Luke is likely to be okay.
Who is Mark Waid?
I'm with you on this, K!
But that took him a LONG time, and he got Hosk into trouble in the first place. And, Hosk died anyway. Plus, Cade went backwards again after that.
There just wasn't much that was appealing or endearing about Cade. He was very off-putting in so many ways.
I don't know that I would say that Luke sees all the much potential in Cade. I think maybe it's just Luke's sense of responsibility and duty since Cade IS his sole descendant. Poor Luke is likely embarrassed that a descendant of his would be such a jerk when he has been blessed with such a great gift.
Perhaps not, but I doubt that it will involve service to others either. Cade strikes me as the type that will just not get involved and will quietly live his own life, concentrating on himself and his own desires and needs.
A temporary injury is one thing, JB. Luke has had many temporary injuries. It's the fact that the one suffered in Apocalypse may well be permanent that bothers me. Plus, it also bothers me that the injury doesn't seem to be so much a physical injury as one involving Luke's ability to use the Force.
Let's face it COW, a large part of the problem is that Denning is writing Crucible and he's demonstrated an inability to stay true to his own work never mind anybody's else's! I think someone could do a good story around the idea of an injured Luke but I'm not convinced that person is Denning.
Yeah, as I said, Cade had relapses - but we have Nat, Kol and Luke all seeing something worthwhile in him, such to the degree that they don't abandon his spaced out arse in the middle of nowhere! Sure, you can say they're only seeing it that way as Cade is related to them but I don't think so. For Nat and Kol, I think it's as simple as having faith in the Force. For Luke? Who's to say he didn't foresee Cade defeating Krayt but also knew Cade would need some help along the way? Or that the Sith-Empire wasn't supposed to happen, Ossues wasn't supposed to happen, that Cade may well have faced Krayt later, as a full Jedi, with Kol and Nat backing him. The Sith send things into a darker direction thus Luke has to intervene to offset their malevolent action.
She did die by saving Luke from....DS poison So I'm of the thought there was some closeness, perhaps a bit more than master and apprentice but not fully developed. I was confused at this point by Sidious's intent, what was Palpatine trying to do kill him or turn him with the poison ? I do like the vision/dream sequence where Luke resists Sidious as he done so twice before.
And Luke was the only one who saw her beyond her looks and skills.
yeah, I'm more curious to see how the character is portrayed after War. Since it seems for the very first time he is at peace, he actually admits his love for Deliah, and he seems to embrace the light side.
I dunno Child, his actions at the end seem jedi like even with sacrificing himself with Krayt's body just to make sure and as I mention he seems at peace. He even remarks on some jedi words in the last panels.
What makes you say that ? Cause their intent was for Luke and/or Leia to destroy both Vader and Sidious. If they were to face their father, both Jedi Masters wouldn't conceal anything that could be used against them at the proper time. I think the ANH Infinities comic captures this when you see what would have happen if Luke completed his training with Yoda.
yet he made the decision to go after talking to Luke. Also the jedi didn't die due to injuries of torture but became one with the Force once the sith trapped Cade. Hosk was the bait to draw Cade
I think the use of a Force Entity such as Abeloth was used to challenge Luke, the problem was the execution. their battles ended up being more of the tried and true light saber fights which rely on being visceral and gory than a battle of Force wielders using their powerful abilities. I mean Abeloth causes a city to explode and Luke is capable of ripping apart space fleets but we don't see anything on that level when they fight each other than Luke dropping the ceiling on her, and metaphysically punching a hole in her.
also they never brought up their heritages into the battle, Luke being a grandchild of the Force and Abeloth being a One would have been an interesting dynamic. It only seem to be implied in Apocalyspe and yet we never get the finals words between Luke and Abeloth.
If they are going to challenge Luke with "Force gods" then don't hold back with their abilities. Stop telling me that Luke is the most powerful jedi and show me why like in DNT and TUF.
well Kataja might have you beat with TUF
Luke's jedi have been tested since day one with Kun, all the way to the Vong, and have prosper for their trials and tribulations . The Lost Tribe have numbers sure but then again quality is much better than quantity in this context. Plus more than half of their Sith Leaders are dead or captured and might I add stupid
exactly, that was one Mara argument I don't entirely understand. They already got rid of Kun, the first victory for Luke's academy why move away when you already took care of the threat ??
·I think not all the ideas in the world could save the Solo kids from the plot
right, I think Luke by the end of DE officially earned that title. Think of Palpatine as his final trial in becoming a jedi master, an overcoming of his influence and defeating him not only in combat but with the use of the LS.
I think Luke was more cautious if his behavior in JAT is any indicator.
·That is what I think she was going for, but this coming from Mara's brash attitude went another direction. I think Zahn was going for the proverbial balance in the use of the Force.
Akanah lied and used Luke, Gariel had duties to her people, and Callista went on her own to find her Force abilities and got eaten by Abeloth. Exactly where is Luke's fault here ? Again I think this is more Mara making say an "emotional" argument then an actual one in logic. She even admits that it was low for her to bring it up. I think she might be subtlety reminding Luke that things might have been different if the both of them continued their friendship/relationship instead of Luke going through all the emotional agony with the other girls.
I think here Mara is being petty and she acknowledges it
which reminds me I have to buy those three books. I really wish they had a trilogy single book.
haha sounds just like Luke
That's fair, but there was also the SBS scene that Kataja posted above. I know he has many cons for you(and for the rest of us) but there is one or two pros that you can acknowledge time to time.
Krayt had the same Force puncture wound that Luke did, there is even a line where Mara remarks that if Krayt can get up from that injury so can Luke. They both lost a part of their Force essence, but that doesn't mean it can't be regained or regenerated over time. The Vong armor was used to prolong his life and then the vong armor began to hamper him when it started taking over his biology. None of his illnesses had to do with his Force abilities.
I dunno, I would be more concern with what the editor allows and doesn't.
also after all the talk about the Skywalkers being the most powerful jedi, it's about time we see that with Luke on the big screen.
a comic writer who work on Captain America, Fantastic Four, Spider-man, and Daredevil. He's great on capturing an optimistic, fun, pulpy vibe, yet despite the charm of the story there will be serious themes similar to what Stover has done with Mindor and what the OT films are. Let's just say he would be one of the first comic writers I would love to write Luke.
So, let's get this straight, Mara is cheesed off at Luke for having 3-4 girlfriends in 10 years because those girls weren't her?
Here's a radical idea: How about Mara actually asked Luke out?
Yeah.. I wonder why it annoyed me so much... But not only is Luke beaten by Corran (Stackpole seems to like to beat up Luke - he's beaten in Union too...) Corran also says Luke is not as good as he thought... And Luke come up with that silly remark taht he didn't do much rough&tumble as kid... Well, I buy that. as well as Corran as Cor Sec agent is better - but still... Luke gets better along the story, but also that scene in his appartment on Coruscant is pretty strange - Luke's so all-cool-Jedi-Master, yet not that cool anyway. But of course, that's after JAT, so...
Hmm.. Zahn's excellent in subtleties - but as soon as the temperature's supposed to turn more than lukewarm he fails 99%. The kiss in the cave is the 1% that actually worked. It wasn't HOT - but it was romantic enough. Have you read Judge's Call? It's a very sympathic short story - but I could offhand name 20 fanfic writers who'd easliy write a better and hotter second honeymoon.
I know... Well, I started from the beginning and am now on ch. 3...
It's a short presentation of about every novel and short story in the EU. Very useful if you want to refersh you memory. And unlike the wook, its consice and official. (f.ex. it says that Vestara on purpose botches her own attmep to assassinate Allana) Also it has some background additions of interest.
Absolutely. My point is just, that the field of balance and moderation is pretty broad - and different from person to person...
Another thing then, is that SW isn't that much about balance and moderation...
That's what I though after reading (assorted part of) TUF...
Actually it must have been the other way round. Luke and Gaeriel definitely didn't have a "relationship". They met a couple of times and Luke did his best to make her forget her antipathy for Jedi - but when she finally did, he was leaving and she stated she could not elave Bakura. They only shared one kiss and that was just before parting. I definitely wouldn't call that a 'relationship'. Also, if all the Bakura stuff ss pressed down into less than a galactic week (whihc is five days) and there shouldmbe time for the trip back to Coruscnat too... No way! While Luke and Jem at least spent some days together. And they even kissed on at least two occations... oh yes. I keep count
Exactly! Luke can be both goofy and sheepish - but never wimpy And needy - well anyone can be that - but it should be used with utter care.
Well, she hadn't saved it back then yet...
Me too! As lesson. Then again - it makes sense that Mara in her position would think: without me= all by himself
Unfortuntely, it has becomemore or less canon now taht Luke was trying to do all by himself until Mara told him to stop.
Plus, as Ben has pointed out the "A Sith? - Run and hide!"-lesson wasn't exactly what he wanted to give, was it. That said, the events in JAT show Luke very stumbling, so I guess that's what's hinted to.
I can't remember details, but here Mara had a point - as we've agreed Luke's written OOC in that he's in inept and undisciplined in JAT - if he's shown some stamina towards Kyp, then same thing might still have happened - but at least Luke would have looked better.
This bothers me. Mara has just pointed out that Luke shouldt carry all burdens - then why is protecting his sisters children his job?
Agreed. He's been worrying himself sick for years before daring to start the Academy - but by taking the tilte - he also showed he shouldered the responsability. Doing less would have been wishy washy as there was one left who could appoint the title to him.
Exactly!!! I know some think it excuses the bad Luke characterzation in the previus books - but I don't agree at all. I'm glad this was one of the things later authors chose to ignore!
It wouldn't bother me íf there wasn't that extra twist with 'be careful for the DS' that makes it almost dangerous to use! For Luke!
I confess I ddin't have energy to seacrh for that scene
You're welcome. I just decided we've been discussing so much back and forth that I now wanted to go back and make a proper list of what's actually said. I've saved in my my puter, so I can always go back now.
I agree the events in SbS drew it to a new level, yes
You know, Child, the longer I am on these boards, the less I believe we think what we do due to rational reasons or arguable facts. If I looke closely at your arguments, the difference between Mindor and Apocalypse isn't taht big. And I claim that the reason you don't like Aocalypse, is taht soemthing in Dennings' writing pisses you off - and that you thus see all plot weakness so clearly. Not that I blame you. I have it much alike with Zahn at the moment. I try hard not to, but it's hard to turn off....
This is exactly how I see it! Luke's really an unstoppable force when he sets his mind to it!
That too! To every one else, she would be either useful or lookable - but to Luke she was a person from the start. Nice point, MS!!!
Agreed on both. But I'd give the authsr credit - she was a daring ad refreshing villain IMO - and they faced the challenge of writing those hardwritten fights. Some even worked!
This is so true...
Very true. And if all that DS pudu hadn't been invlolved (+ Luke admitting she was "absolutely right") I'd thought it superb! Actually, I'm willing to swalliów that DS pudu (as it's never been followed up on) and ´just love Mara's jealousy for what it is.
Ha! She's too proud! And I can't blame her - if the man I'd fancy woudl also be the most famous guy in the galaxy (= the most desiable bachelor in the galaxy, cos that's how (other) women think) then he'd have to come crawling to me too. Just to get things even!
Out of a completely different tangent - what's Luke's role in Crimson Empire?
Minor and poor! Sounds harsh I know but it's true, CE3 really screwed the pooch in this respect!
As to Luke & Mara - nah, if she wants him, she can go and get him! None of this Rules malarky! (Does anyone actually follow that steaming pile of rubbish seriously?)