Discussion in 'Literature' started by Jedi Ben, Mar 22, 2008.
I agree. He should not have been in the story at all.
JB, to you as well my friend
Happy New Year everyone.
I was never much of a Crimson Empire fan, Lusankya appearance aside. That is how the New Republic should be presented in that era, as really powerful, but of course the NJO went the complete opposite direction (sourcebooks add retcons about the big, powerful ships being kept very close to important worlds that aren't really under direct threats rather in the big battles, but still another depressing thing about the NJO). Any, Kanos was an admirable protagonist in that he's the last of the Royal Guard (those cool-looking red-suited guys from RotJ) out to avenge his master, even if that master is Palpatine, but its kind of hard to root for him when Luke Skywalker is on his hit list. Not his top priority at first, but eventually he's going to get around to it. The probable conclusions to his story was to either 1) face Luke and lose and die, 2) give up on his quest, but that weakens his character a bit and just falls into the defecting Imperial category somewhat, or 3) kills Luke, which is... unlikely. Eventually they just went with 2.
Dark Empire on its own was pretty epic, but DE2 weakened it somewhat. The first time Palpatine comes back from the dead, its whoa, the second time, its just meh, and also I hate it when stories introduce that "hidden backup clone somewhere" plot since then it means you have basically endless villains until they change the rules (SG-1 did that too, but then SG-1 did a lot of stupid things). DE2 had quite a few cool moments, but then it all ended with a whimper in Empire's End. Different art didn't help, but being only two issues ruined it, although it added a few interesting ideas too and at least conclusively finished off Palpatine (being dragged off to the afterlife by a dying Jedi).
Anyway, back to Crimson Empire, yeah, CE3 was mediocre in general, and horrible Luke-wise. It doesn't help to have a beautiful red-headed, green-eyed woman who wasn't Mara Jade. Although Mara already did fit a lot of regular fantasy story archetypes (former enemy assassin, Force-user, fringe person, etc.), but those kinds of characters are popular. I know CE3 had been requested for years, though I didn't really care that much, at least partially because Kanos still had Luke on his "to kill" list, so it was a loose thread, even if the Nom Anor thing had been hijacked by the NJO. And then it just also ends quietly. Luke's bad portrayal didn't help, especially as it sort of came at the expense of making Kanos and Sinn look better. Its not as bad as some other instances, but it wasn't a good story. No "I sense I can trust them" or kind, forgiving or patient Luke, just a lot of grumbling and random accusations, not a good portrayal. And digging up Vima Da-Boda just to warn about another lame, generic warlord wasn't worth it. Oh well, at least Vima didn't reappear only to be killed or eaten by some ancient entity that wants to be Luke's girlfriend, so that still puts its far above most of the recent Luke novels.
I just hope 2013 is a better year for Luke in general, but since Crucible is the next big project where he is supposed to appear, I'm not... optimistic to say the least. At least Scoundrels should be out in a few hours (well, the US anyway, have it scheduled to download soon) and while I'm not expecting Luke to show up there, I wouldn't mind a cameo. Yes, Zahn's portrayal of Luke in Allegiance and Choices of One hasn't been perfect either, but I prefer a less than perfect young Luke rather than a horribly inaccurate version of Grandmaster Luke.
Not to mention worrying about how they'll gear up for Episode VII, but I prefer not to think about that too much (how much Luke is involved or not, who knows at this point).
to tap into the Force for raw power, thus missing the subtleties and the guidance it
she was right about that, but this a lesson Luke learned recently before that conversation. Of course Mara did not know that. SotP reveals that Luke did not notice the subtleties of the force until he decided to cut back on it's use. He decided to cut back on the use as he saw the Emperor and Exar Kun laughing at him as he was deciding what extreme force ability to use to deal with the pirates. I love that he learned the lesson, but he should have learned this sooner.
some of the stuff mara says is right, some of it is wrong.
I don't think Denning writes a good Luke period. I've always felt that he writes Luke too darkish and cold and out-of-character. He seems to forget about the compassionate Farmboy side of Luke.
Perhaps, but I think a big part of it IS that he's related to Luke, Nat, and Kol. I don't think they would have wasted anywhere near the same time or energy on someone else who was acting like such a selfish jerk if he wasn't a Skywalker.
Now I *do* like this idea that Luke "saw" that Cade would defeat Krayt, but I wish that something like this had been actually written into the story.
It definitely wasn't fully developed. It was so obscure that a reader could miss that it existed at all.
I definitely think that Sidious wanted to kill Luke at this point. He realized that he couldn't turn Luke, so he tried to get rid of him.
But he still seemed quite happy to get away from it all and rush off, away from any responsibilities.
I think that if Yoda and Ben truly planned to tell Luke the truth, they would have done so when it became clear that Luke wasn't staying on Dagobah, but was going to try to rescue Han and Leia. They had to know Luke would likely confront Vader, and there was always the possibility that Vader would tell Luke the truth when that happened. It would have been so much better if Luke would have found out from mentors he trusted than from his enemy during a battle, and when he was seriously injured. As I said, I feel Ben and Yoda were lucky that Luke didn't take Vader up on his offer to rule the galaxy as father and son.
I think that Jacen/Caedus, another Skywalker, would have made a better continuing adversary for Luke and a very good challenge for him, IF he had been written correctly.
That's a great poing, MS!
All true, but still, the fact that there are so many thousand of them IS a problem. And, if at least some of them are as powerful as that Galaan, who pretty much dueled Luke to a draw, that does NOT bode well for Luke and his small Order of Jedi.
LOL! SO TRUE!
Being more cautious is far different from having everything Luke did tainted by darkness.
But it was not executed well. I hated Mara's lecture. It made Luke look bad and he didn't deserve that.
I admitted that I liked that Luke/Mara scene that Kataja printed.... But I don't think Denning has very many of those moments where he writes Luke well.
We'll find out, I guess!
I agree! I hope that we *will* get to see Luke demonstrate his power and his wisdom onscreen.
Thanks for that information!
LOL! Seems like that's about right!
But Denning's retcons don't usually happen in the next book. They usually happen several books later when he realizes his idea didn't go over very well. So, he has to make SOME connection to what he did to Luke in Apocalypse, I'm afraid.
But I think most people can tell when a book or series has ended to the satisfaction of most people. If the author goes for balance or seeks a middle ground, I think the story will work for the greatest number of people.
Believe me, I was similarly worried and annoyed about Luke's injury in TUF, and I made many negative and nervous comments about it. It was the one thing that spoiled TUF for me. It wasn't until I read the next book and found that Luke was fine that I relaxed and could truly enjoy the wonderful way that Luceno tied the whole NJO together. It was definitely an amazing work. But I wasn't happy about Luke's injury near the end of TUF.
True, but I don't think Luke was involved with Jem much longer than that either.
I disagree. Even if Mindor doesn't have a happy, fun ending, it's a complete story in one book. Yet, Apocalypse was supposed to be the CONCLUSION to a 9 book series.... really to an 18 book series.. or a 21 book series if you include the DNT. For Apocalpyse to NOT have a true and satisfying ending after all of those books, makes a HUGE difference. How was Apocalpyse any different than any of the other 8 books in the FotJ series? None of them had a true ending either, but at least I knew they weren't supposed to be the end of the story. Apocalypse WAS supposed to be the end of the series. That it didn't really have a true ending, and that it didn't have the heroes permanently defeat ANY of the huge number of villains, is extremely annoying when it was advertised as the conclusion to the story. There was no true or clear victory for the heroes, which is unsatisfying after all they were put through. It particularly annoyed me that Luke had such a disappointing "ending" after he suffered through so much in this series, including being a convicted criminal and punished with exile. Where was his payback? Where was his reward for all of his trials? That's what I find so unsatisfying. There was nothing at all positive or "happy" about the finish of Apocalypse.
More next year! Happy New Year to those of you who live where it's already 2013!
Sure, you can say they're only seeing it that way as Cade is related
to them but I don't think so. For Nat and Kol, I think it's as simple as having faith in
the Force. For Luke?Perhaps, but I think a big part of it IS that he's related to Luke, Nat, and Kol. I don't think they would have wasted anywhere near the same time or energy on someone else who was acting like such a selfish jerk if he wasn't a Skywalker.
* The problem I have with your notion is it goes against the very nature of the Jedi as revived by Luke! Recall the conversation he has with the Rodian senator, all worlds are Luke's concern not just homeworlds or core worlds. There is no reason to think he ever departed from that and certainly, it is plausible the Jedi would operate on that basis amongst others.
* What armoured Cade more effectively than anything anyone else had? That he truly did not want power over the galaxy or people, he didn't want an exalted position with people paying him homage - all of Krayt's seductive dark side overtures had no answer to this. What did he want? To be able to live without fear, to live without feeling broken and shattered.
Who's to say he didn't foresee Cade defeating Krayt but also knew
Cade would need some help along the way?Now I *do* like this idea that Luke "saw" that Cade would defeat Krayt, but I wish that something like this had been actually written into the story.
* Equally, it's likely Krayt also saw that possibilty and undertook his grand plans to avert it, thus Luke had to take a hand!
Another stray though before I get back to your comments - when did Kyle Katarn start at Luke's Academy? And could Luke have been somehow jealous of him since Mara trained with Kyle instead of Luke in 10 ABY? Also, could Luke have believed there was more to Kyle & Mara than friendship? It would fit pretty well with timeline : 10 ABY Luke takes interest in Jem Ysanna + 11 ABY keeps (?) Mara at bit at bay when she arrives.
Also, he would soon learn from Kyle there was nothing to it so he'd almost have forgotten that jealousy by the time of the Hand of Thrawn campaign, which would explain why it's not brought up there.
Jedi Outcast (after which Kyle joins the Praxeum as an instructor) is set in 12 ABY, according to the Wook.
Your remarks fit the Lando situation better (as brought out in VotF) where they were locating Exocron for Karrde. IIRC, Luke found the beckon-call that started that search circa 9 ABY, just before Thrawn started making a nuissance of himself!
Don't really see Luke as having the capacity for jealousy really, if he's guilty of anything it's likely being too respectful.
Yes, I know of Lando, but it hit me he might have felt similar with Kyle. Then again, if Kyle joined the Praxeum only in 12 ABY, we can't be sure Luke would even know of him. Thanks.
The thought just hit me as a stray thought as we know L was jealous of Lando - and insecure his first years as teacher. The fact that Mara was off , training with someone else could have been a sour pill in the first place, but also a reason for some slight jealousy. Add to that, that we're talking of well, Kyle Katarn -who can block lightsabers with his pinky
Just a silly idea...
Hmm, interesting. Why do you think that?
Personally, I'd definitely say Luke's been jealous, the way he looses up in VOTF when Mara reveales there was nothing going on between them.
Acording to the 181st's 'Dark Forces' thread, Luke would have definitely known of Kyle; and may have even met him (5 ABY, or perhaps earlier).
'Mysteries of the Sith' (where Mara is Kyle's apprentice) is set in 10 ABY, but I think that jealousy would not have come into it with Kyle -- unlike Lando, Kyle has a long-term 'steady', Jan Ors -- and she's quite handy with weapons too (and from some of the comments Jan comes out with in 'Outcast', Kyle might be hen-pecked)! Kyle and Luke definitely met at the end of 'Mysteries' since Kyle gave Luke his Lightsaber for safekeeping (Kyle had been shocked by nearly falling to the Dark Side and was in process of renouncing his use of the Force).
I don't know about his pinky, K, but the beard is pretty well nigh invincible!
Ah yes, I had forgotten about Jan Ors. I had for some reason got it into my head that she was dead around 10 ABY - but then I don't really know anything about Kyle and their adventures. Ah, well, my fun theory definitely doesn't work, then.
His beard? You have to expand on that!
Kyle's beard is (to his fans) as the 'Hat' is to K'Kruhk - a highly mystical item and a source of great power!!
Happy New Year everybody! Be healthy and safe this year
so it's shown on panel Luke was already injected with the Emperor's poison by the time Leia and Jem intervene. As you mention Palps is trying to kill him with some type of DS alchemy poison but Luke overcomes the poison via the Force(hence that Force vision/dream). Or it's probably likely he knew the poison would only delay him so he sent his dark sider henchmen to finish the job. I assume he was still weak after resisting the poison hence while he chose to flee instead of engage the AT-ATs. I think that gives me much more closure on that scene since I never understood why Luke chose to leave rather than fight.
I'm still trying to figure out when they actually kiss
though you think Palpatine would realize that a poison would only stop a jedi temporarily, perhaps the darksiders were there to finish the job since Luke was incacipated with the poison.
I think he was happy not to have the Empire after him and not being sought after from the Sith. I know I would
YODA Told you, did he?
YODA Unexpected this is, and unfortunate...
LUKE Unfortunate that I know the truth?
No. Unfortunate that you rushed to face him... that incomplete was your
ready for the burden were you.
two things, for starters I think Obi-wan and Yoda fully believe Vader was consumed by the DS, when in truth a little bit of Anakin was around somewhere in that mechanical suit. So the line "unexpected this is" by Yoda seems odd at first glance I mean why wouldn't Vader mention this to Luke it just seems common sense, but perhaps at second glance they believe that Anakin had lost all his humanity and would have not try to seduce Luke by revealing the truth, perhaps they believe Vader would only have gone for the kill. I guess Yoda couldn't predict what would happen when he saw the visions of the future.
the next point, Yoda implies in the next line that once Luke was fully trained that Luke would have been ready for that emotional burden, therefore Yoda would have reveal the truth. As I mention ANH Infinities is basically a What If story where Luke is fully trained and Yoda does reveal the truth after his training.
I think it would have made for an interesting battle, but as we knew from the beginning and as seen with LotF Luke would have won the duel(he beat him 4 times by count). It would have been predictable but if handle well it could have gone places. The dynamic between Luke's heritage and Abeloth's Force deity status also made for an interesting conflict, and Luke would have been pushed to his limits. We could have seen things that we knew Luke capable of but haven't seen. The problem for me was the execution which was more of a standard light saber duel repeat that we have been getting of late. As I mention Abeloth is an unstoppable force and Luke is an immovable object. I was expecting Luke by the end to tap into his potential and have a moment of Oneness like Jacen did in TUF. Sadly we got a lame team up.
and so far Gaalan was the only sith to warrant some skill by surviving an encounter with Luke. Arguably Vol was the most powerful of the group and yet he dies after his second confrontation with Abeloth, so he defeated her once. Luke on the other hand defeated her four times(albeit with help in the final fight).
also I would like to make a few points,
-Luke wasn't at 100% when he fought Gaalan, given he recovered a good bit after the mindwalkers scenario but he still wasn't on his A-game. Ben mentions this observation in Backlash.
- Gaalan had both a sith apprentice and Vestara join the duel, yet Luke wasn't fluster by this at all. He knock away the apprentice from the fight(while fighting Gaalan) and was ready for Vestara's attack.
- Luke noticed Gaalan was getting closer to being cut down as the duel continue.
-Gaalan chose to flee even though he made the statement "I'll be the one to kill Luke Skywalker".
I know that, better then most I would say. But the point you like one aspect of Denning's writing is something of a momentous occasion wouldn't you say ?
same here I expect BIG STUFF, imagine Neo from the Matrix or Starkiller.....but BIGGER!
-Kyle's relationship with Mara was only master and apprentice and friends. Since aside of MotS you don't see the pair meet up that much again. Also as
mentioned Kyle was spoken for with Jan Ors since Dark Forces 2.
- also after Kyle meets up with Luke again Jedi Outcast and becomes a permanent instructor in Jedi Academy in 12-13 ABY I imagine Luke would have been well informed about Mara's whereabouts and goings from Kyle.
check out some of the interactions and judge for yourself....Kyle is oddly dress in black.
Ok, you've effectively made me decide NOT to buy it!
I'm of the opposite opinion - but since I've repeatedly voiced my ideas, I shut up unless you ask me to repeat them
Be mindful that you use a source of one author (Zahn) to confirm a statement of the same author.
I honstly don't see how this is true about Luke in FOTJ. He's reluctant to trust Vestara - but that's it. And it's not like he didn't ahve good reasons to be careful, not to mention much at stake (his son's heart)
So TUF became a better book after Denning wrote The Joiner King?
Not longer, but it seems to me on his lines in DE (incl Radio Drama) that he starts to hope when it comes to Jem. Gaeriel never becomes more than a daydream.
So not only is Kyle the GFFA Chuck Norris - he's also the GFFA Samson
Hey - I agree they was only apprentice and friends - but would Luke know that? As early as 10 ABY, I mean. That was my point - Mara runs off around 10 ABY with Kyle, taking him as her teacher - if Luke was even slightly interested in Mara, wouldn't that bother him? Especially since he's just had the DE mess - not to speak if Kyle is viewed as even slightly as awesome in GFFA as he is in the fan jokes. I guess Luke woul'd know about Jan - still, would he be sure it couldn't be a one side thing from Mara's part? At least, Mara taking another teacher must have been a blow to him, even without jealousy.
Ok, it's not much - but it could be seen as one reason more why Luke allowes himself to fall for Jem in DE II. Maybe. Just an idea.
Besides, I was doing a little research myself - and it seemes that Kyle actually saves Mara at one occation - when she's beencaptured by none other than Blackhole...It's in Dark Forces Saga 5: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_Dark_Forces_Saga but sadly, it seems like all old links to Wizards of the Coast are dead so I can't find anything more on this story. It sounds rather exciting. But it would not have anything to do with my little home coocked theory, of course.
Oh, and Happy New Year to you all too!!!
In the backstory to 'Outcast', an NRI team followed up a "Katarn Visit" to a suspicious facility on Tatooine --- and found.... just one, terrified, survivor! Definitely AWESOME, wouldn't you say? But as a 'Black-Ops' specialist, probably not as well known as Luke!
Happy New Year to you, as well, K!
lol Was that in Outcast? I can't remember it at all.
Hey? Am I the only Jedi Master here around? I gotta post some more!
Or then I should enjoy this chance to feel young
As I mentioned K I'm sure Luke would have asked Kyle when he became a permanent instructor in 12 ABY, but I think Luke knew that Jan and Kyle were an item at 10 aby
Your grand in my book Kataja to think ill been here for more than 7 years and I was relatively new. Child and Ben have been here since TPM and Aotc
Yeah... but I still think this could be a fun story... if nothing else, then a fanfic
Just imagine Luke trying to pas sthe question to Kyle - without asking, of course.
Awww.... love you too, Master
Seven years - and thirteen - that's pretty awesome, that is!!!
Part of the 'Read Me' file, one had to dig for it either on the CD or in the Directories!
Next landmark is 2000 posts, K -- not so many to go! Will try to 'like' you a bit more frequently too!
I suppose pagenumbers won't help since tehre are so many editions, but first tim eis in hyperspace after a training where Jem is angered because she can't bock the lasers of the training device. Second time is on New Alderaan shortly before Luke's attacked and Jem dies.
This makes very much sense! It could be that Yoda and Obi-Wan had actually started to look at Vader as a machine (as Ben says) - thus stopping viewing his as a human. Also, they'd feel very bad about this, and thus it woul have been the last thing Yoda chose to tell Luke.
I expected the same - but I still maintain that FOTJ didn't end the way they planned it due to the ST there's simply oo much in the last two novels that seem "strange" - and it would fit with what we know now.
Also I agree that Jacen wouldn't have been a 'good enough' villain to stand against Luke for longer than he did. Abeloth had at least the material to do it.
Wait, this is in Jedi Outcast, right? Not in Allston's novel? That explains it.
My problem, I guess, is that I don't have the games. I noticed that there's a novelization available of the first three Dark Forces stories, though, but they seem hard to come by. In general, I find the gaming material hard to dig up. If anyone finds more about Dark Forces Saga 5: Two Peas in a Pod than is revealed on the Wook, then let me know!
Another thing completely: just as I complained - I rose in rank! Woot!
Thank you Tim!!! You did it!
No problem, K - if I did have something to do with it!
A little something for you that I've rummaged for and found in the Archives! http://boards.theforce.net/threads/...s-bonus-level-unlocked-jedi-vs-sith.50003238/
Not the full novellisations, but should give you a flavour! Enjoy!